Moises Caicedo | Chelsea agree £115M fee | signed for Chelsea

[Abraxas]

I find it incredibly hard to understand why there may be a reasoning that we may need Mounts style more than Caicedo as a midfielder. If there was a Bruno shaped hole in our squad it's completely different.

Bottom line...Caicedo is a midfield player. A pretty rounded one. Mason Mount is an I'm not too sure player. Is he going to be an 8, a 10, something in-between? Nobody even knows because it's probably based off ETH's intuition about moulding him into a system rather than demonstrable ability as a midfield player. There's nothing in his history where he's excelled in deeper positions. At all. But there is a history that says he can score and assist in advanced positions. So it's one of those where the manager sees something.

Which is fine as a concept, you can trust a manager but we can't seriously sit here and try to advance an argument Mount is better, more proven, more suited when there is no evidence for it at all. It may be more of a cost saving exercise if they can bargain Mount down. Because on equal terms there's no doubt Caicedo looks a better buy for me, he's just also a costly one. He can cover Casemiro, he can sit alongside Casemiro and take up more aggressive positions. He's young enough to fit into whatever you want and he's got the skillset where he's not going to be a fish out of water as a 6 or 8 IMO.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Maybe he is a better player than people give him credit for?

It's not absurd. Long-passing is simply not that important in terms of keeping control of a game via possession. All of Dunk (11.9 att, 65.2%), Groß (9.78 att, 46.5%), Webster (8.05 att, 70.2 %), Colwill (7.79 att, 70.8%), March (6.89 att, 54.3%), Veltman (5.84 att, 59.2%) and Mac Allister (4.61 att, 68.2%) attempted more long passes per game than Caicedo (4.56 att, 79.2%), while some of them are significantly worse than Caicedo at completing them. Weirdly, it didn't have an impact on Brighton being an excellent team at keeping possession.

It is designed to showcase two specific metrics that the poster I was responding to mentioned one of. It wasn't a commentary on the overall quality of all of those players. By the way, why are you cherry-picking worse players and not the best, who also happen to stand out in that graph? Tielemans problem isn't what he does on the ball, rather that he is lazy and unfit for 90 minutes, which is fairly crucial for a footballer. Højbjerg has been a good player for Spurs in the past and he is an underrated passer.

I think we are talking past each other here - my issue with Caicedo isn't that he's not a quality passer, it's that he's a limited passer. If he's partnering Casemiro, I don't think that any top side will be sufficiently creative (without freakish creation from, say, the fullbacks a la Liverpool). If he's partnering Enzo, then feck yes he's a tremendous fit.

To me the ability to retain and circulate possession does not necessarily equate to dictating tempo. The player that exemplifies this to me is Jorginho - he's great at keeping the ball and doing very little with it in terms of his forward passing, doesn't pass the ball long, very rarely creates anything, yadda yadda. It's very telling that players who I would consider to be limited passers show up very well there - Jorginho and Hojberg both often just sit deep, receive what is technically a progressive pass from the CBs, then play a safe diagonal out to a fullback who is 20 yards wider and 10 yards further forward.

For me, Caicedo's passing profile is similar overall, but at the same time I'd acknowledge that a player with Jorginho's passing and Caicedo's off-ball / defensive workrate would be a tremendous asset for most sides - one of the few exceptions would be a team that already has a god-tier DM who's limited on-ball in Casemiro.

 

[luke511]

Welp, you may be onto something - Brighton were 19th in long pass attempts last year.

That said, I still would push back on the notion that Caicedo's passing range has been held back by the team's tactics as I think that's a bridge too far, but I apologise for being flippant before.

Having said that you've convinced me and I fully support Chelsea going all out for Caicedo!

No problem, him and Enzo would be a monstrous duo so it’s a concern as a Utd fan.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

I find it incredibly hard to understand why there may be a reasoning that we may need Mounts style more than Caicedo as a midfielder. If there was a Bruno shaped hole in our squad it's completely different.

Bottom line...Caicedo is a midfield player. A pretty rounded one. Mason Mount is an I'm not too sure player. Is he going to be an 8, a 10, something in-between? Nobody even knows because it's probably based off ETH's intuition about moulding him into a system rather than demonstrable ability as a midfield player. There's nothing in his history where he's excelled in deeper positions. At all. But there is a history that says he can score and assist in advanced positions. So it's one of those where the manager sees something.

Which is fine as a concept, you can trust a manager but we can't seriously sit here and try to advance an argument Mount is better, more proven, more suited when there is no evidence for it at all. It may be more of a cost saving exercise if they can bargain Mount down. Because on equal terms there's no doubt Caicedo looks a better buy for me, he's just also a costly one. He can cover Casemiro, he can sit alongside Casemiro and take up more aggressive positions. He's young enough to fit into whatever you want and he's got the skillset where he's not going to be a fish out of water as a 6 or 8 IMO.

The issue is that you have an attacking fullback problem. Shaw fell off a cliff last year and everyone knows about AWB's limitations. Maybe Shaw can bounce back and maybe Dalot can come in and stay fit and perform at a high level, but if that doesn't happen then you have 4 first choice defenders who don't really like to attack as well as Casemiro who is limited. Given that context, the team pretty clearly needs two attacking 8s to have the typical 5-3-2 / 5-2-3 possession structure.

Also odd to say that Caicedo is more proven that Mount given their CVs, but perhaps I digress. I don't disagree that Caicedo is a better purchase in a vacuum than Mount - but if you go for Caicedo surely you also need to buy a top class attacking fullback? If you'd gone for Alex Grimaldo on a free that would have made a lot of sense, but I don't know if you have the budget to go for the more expensive option in midfield on top of that necessitating another purchase elsewhere (and understandably you may be somewhat traumatised from a previous purchase of a similarly balls-out attacking fullback from Portugal).

 

[Abraxas]

I don't think Casemiro's passing is limited. I think that's a bit of a misconception because he's seen as this destroyer, the guy that always sat behind Modric and Kroos. There was no reason to do anything outside the box in that team.

At United his passing has been decently progressive. Nothing wrong with it at all in that aspect. He can play a pass that bypasses a midfield. He can hit it long. He's even found a few beautiful assists. If you watch him his first thought at United isn't simplicity. He only goes to that when there isn't an aggressive option.

My problem with his passing is the inconsistency. Match to match and within games. He's no metronome. So actually if he's going to play this more compelling style of passing it wouldn't be bad to have somebody like Caicedo just ticking over. The dream was probably De Jong, who in a different style relentlessly keeps the ball. He has more to his passing and dribbling than Caicedo, but less competitiveness and robustness which can be useful in the PL.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

No problem, him and Enzo would be a monstrous duo so it’s a concern as a Utd fan.

Hope you have a good night mate and again would reiterate that I enjoyed our chat and would want to earnestly apologise if I came across as condescending. For what it's worth, I fully agree that Caicedo / Enzo is a dream CM pairing.

 

[luke511]

Hope you have a good night mate and again would reiterate that I enjoyed our chat and would want to earnestly apologise if I came across as condescending. For what it's worth, I fully agree that Caicedo / Enzo is a dream CM pairing.

It’s all good mate, I can come across as passive aggressive and condescending on here too, it’s quite easy to slip into that mode when in disagreement about something! Have a good’en.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

I don't think Casemiro's passing is limited. I think that's a bit of a misconception because he's seen as this destroyer, the guy that always sat behind Modric and Kroos. There was no reason to do anything outside the box in that team.

At United his passing has been decently progressive. Nothing wrong with it at all in that aspect. He can play a pass that bypasses a midfield. He can hit it long. He's even found a few beautiful assists. If you watch him his first thought at United isn't simplicity. He only goes to that when there isn't an aggressive option.

My problem with his passing is the inconsistency. Match to match and within games. He's no metronome. So actually if he's going to play this more compelling style of passing it wouldn't be bad to have somebody like Caicedo just ticking over. The dream was probably De Jong, who in a different style relentlessly keeps the ball. He has more to his passing and dribbling than Caicedo, but less competitiveness and robustness which can be useful in the PL.

I agree that FdJ made a lot of sense if you'd be playing a double pivot - but honestly I think much of that pursuit last year was on the back of Shaw being one of the most effective attacking fullbacks in the world in the final third. He was still a very good passer generally - which really suggests he could do a role stepping forward into midfield if not overlapping down the left. In that context, I just think it makes more sense to target a mobile, versatile 8 - unless there's some news I've missed that suggests Shaw will go back to being an overlapping demon again.

 

[Abraxas]

The issue is that you have an attacking fullback problem. Shaw fell off a cliff last year and everyone knows about AWB's limitations. Maybe Shaw can bounce back and maybe Dalot can come in and stay fit and perform at a high level, but if that doesn't happen then you have 4 first choice defenders who don't really like to attack as well as Casemiro who is limited. Given that context, the team pretty clearly needs two attacking 8s to have the typical 5-3-2 / 5-2-3 possession structure.

Also odd to say that Caicedo is more proven that Mount given their CVs, but perhaps I digress. I don't disagree that Caicedo is a better purchase in a vacuum than Mount - but if you go for Caicedo surely you also need to buy a top class attacking fullback? If you'd gone for Alex Grimaldo on a free that would have made a lot of sense, but I don't know if you have the budget to go for the more expensive option in midfield on top of that necessitating another purchase elsewhere (and understandably you may be somewhat traumatised from a previous purchase of a similarly balls-out attacking fullback from Portugal).

I don't think Casemiro is especially limited so I'm going to disagree on that. I think it's just typecasting but he plays nothing like he did at Madrid.

I think if you have weak performing fullbacks you need better fullbacks. There's no circumventing that. It's pretty crucial in modern football as we know. No amount of 8s is going to hide a deficiency on the flanks so rather than getting too smart about it we should probably just address it. Probably why Frimpong was linked as the right is especially poor. It also depends on the wingers of course, Antony needs more attacking help than Rashford who probably needs more defensive cover as his tracking can leave something to be desired. So maybe Shaw/attacking RB works out.

Caicedo is more proven as a midfielder is my point. Mount is speculative on ETHs part, I believe. I don't see this history or style of an 8. Not to say he can't but it's not particularly proven as a concept.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

I don't think Casemiro is especially limited so I'm going to disagree on that. I think it's just typecasting but he plays nothing like he did at Madrid.

I think if you have weak performing fullbacks you need better fullbacks. There's no circumventing that. It's pretty crucial in modern football as we know. No amount of 8s is going to hide a deficiency on the flanks so rather than getting too smart about it we should probably just address it. Probably why Frimpong was linked as the right is especially poor. It also depends on the wingers of course, Antony needs more attacking help than Rashford who probably needs more defensive cover.

Caicedo is more proven as a midfielder is my point. Mount is speculative on ETHs part, I believe. I don't see this history or style of an 8. Not to say he can't but it's not particularly proven as a concept.

Oh I agree that he doesn't play like he did at Madrid - at Madrid Casemiro was arguably the best transition player in the history of the sport. He had a unique role where he would play as the most advanced midfielder of the 3 in possession and the most withdrawn out of possession - as he's aged obviously that mind-bogglingly strenuous task has been beyond him.

I think Frimpong makes sense for you - and I still think Shaw could be a very effective fullback / midfield player who covers in-field and builds play. Given that Rashford wants to be close to goal, you then need a left sided 8 who is disciplined defensively, can help make up for some of Rashford's pressing issues, and is comfortable dropping deep to help build play. Again, I know he's not sexy but Mount ticks all of those boxes. I'd argue that you absolutely can make up for a deficiency on the flanks with midfielders - case in point being Man City playing Nathan Ake at left back most of the year because they have an extremely versatile left 8 in Gundogan.

I don't disagree that Caicedo is a more proven 6 - but I think looking at the team that way doesn't reflect modern football. If the goal is to establish an attacking 5 and a defending 5, the question for me boils down to whether you're more comfortable with Mount or Shaw as an attacker - especially when you consider that if you choose Shaw then you are relying on a midfielder moving wide from the middle to cover his flank behind Rashford instead of just having Shaw do it.

 

[Abraxas]

Oh I agree that he doesn't play like he did at Madrid - at Madrid Casemiro was arguably the best transition player in the history of the sport. He had a unique role where he would play as the most advanced midfielder of the 3 in possession and the most withdrawn out of possession - as he's aged obviously that mind-bogglingly strenuous task has been beyond him.

I think Frimpong makes sense for you - and I still think Shaw could be a very effective fullback / midfield player who covers in-field and builds play. Given that Rashford wants to be close to goal, you then need a left sided 8 who is disciplined defensively, can help make up for some of Rashford's pressing issues, and is comfortable dropping deep to help build play. Again, I know he's not sexy but Mount ticks all of those boxes. I'd argue that you absolutely can make up for a deficiency on the flanks with midfielders - case in point being Man City playing Nathan Ake at left back most of the year because they have an extremely versatile left 8 in Gundogan.

I don't disagree that Caicedo is a more proven 6 - but I think looking at the team that way doesn't reflect modern football. If the goal is to establish an attacking 5 and a defending 5, the question for me boils down to whether you're more comfortable with Mount or Shaw as an attacker - especially when you consider that if you choose Shaw then you are relying on a midfielder moving wide from the middle to cover his flank behind Rashford instead of just having Shaw do it.

You may be selling the virtues of that particular role to me. I'm just not sure that I am capable of becoming filled with optimism that Mason Mount is the ideal candidate to perform it! Unsexy is okay if it's good, but the problem is if he's not very good it's much worse than that. I think I've seen a few too many unsexy performances from Mount.

I have had similar thoughts on Shaw. I am not totally sure where his future lies as he enters into his late 20s. He's performed great at CB, he can build play at LB but the dynamic play is a little less than it was, and it started to feel like he is better in his new position than his old one, or certainly there wasn't the difference I'd expect. He could probably play in midfield too. For this season I still see him primarily being a LB as I think that position is an unlikely addition. Long-term I'm not sure.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

You may be selling the virtues of that particular role to me. I'm just not sure that I am capable of becoming filled with optimism that Mason Mount is the ideal candidate to perform it! Unsexy is okay if it's good, but the problem is if he's not very good it's much worse than that. I think I've seen a few too many unsexy performances from Mount.

I have had similar thoughts on Shaw. I am not totally sure where his future lies as he enters into his late 20s. He's performed great at CB, he can build play at LB but the dynamic play is a little less than it was, and it started to feel like he is better in his new position than his old one, or certainly there wasn't the difference I'd expect. He could probably play in midfield too. For this season I still see him primarily being a LB as I think that position is an unlikely addition. Long-term I'm not sure.

If I may comment with my loathsome Chelsea fan hat on - often Mount has been relied on to be the hub of our attacking play, and you are absolutely correct that he has come up short at times. The difference for me in terms of his hypothetical fit is that you already have Bruno, Rashford, and Sancho - so Mount won't be the de facto main creative force.

I've always thought Mount should be a secondary (or tertiary) creator in an elite team - for me his best attribute is his understanding of how best to exploit space (and this in turn is reflected by how opportunistic he is). This is why it's driven me absolutely insane when Southgate has shoehorned him into the exact same role - I don't think that any team with Mount as the sole creative player in midfield will go far, and whilst Chelsea were at times handicapped by that reality, Southgate apparently chose it willingly?

All this is to say that as someone who has watched more or less every minute of Mount's career for Chelsea, I have zero doubts about his ability to play as an 8 in an elite team - and it is honestly devastating that we are set to lose him.

 

[bucky]

I think we are talking past each other here - my issue with Caicedo isn't that he's not a quality passer, it's that he's a limited passer. If he's partnering Casemiro, I don't think that any top side will be sufficiently creative (without freakish creation from, say, the fullbacks a la Liverpool). If he's partnering Enzo, then feck yes he's a tremendous fit.

To me the ability to retain and circulate possession does not necessarily equate to dictating tempo. The player that exemplifies this to me is Jorginho - he's great at keeping the ball and doing very little with it in terms of his forward passing, doesn't pass the ball long, very rarely creates anything, yadda yadda. It's very telling that players who I would consider to be limited passers show up very well there - Jorginho and Hojberg both often just sit deep, receive what is technically a progressive pass from the CBs, then play a safe diagonal out to a fullback who is 20 yards wider and 10 yards further forward.

For me, Caicedo's passing profile is similar overall, but at the same time I'd acknowledge that a player with Jorginho's passing and Caicedo's off-ball / defensive workrate would be a tremendous asset for most sides - one of the few exceptions would be a team that already has a god-tier DM who's limited on-ball in Casemiro.

I just disagree with the notion that you can make any definitive statement of what kind of passer Caicedo is going to be, when he is 21 and is being compared to players, who are the very best players (and older) for that specific profile. Even if he is never going to be as good as Kroos or de Jong, he can still be an excellent passer and I wouldn't consider him to be limited. In that regard Carrick and Fletcher improved considerably during their time at United for example.

Regarding a partnership with Casemiro, I agree, they aren't the best fit. However the idea is to replace Casemiro with Caicedo eventually, especially if we are trying to get better in possession. Frankly, I have been a little bit surprised at how erratic Casemiro's passing has been this season. Some of that obviously is down to him being instructed to be more adventurous with his passing, but if we are trying to get better at keeping possession, either he needs to improve or needs to be replaced. Considering his age, I think it will be the latter. Furthermore, I think United should sign 2 central midfielders anyway and one of them could be a more specific profile fit. The number of proven good midfielders is extremely limited at the moment, hence why a bit of forward planning would make sense for United. Also, you have Enzo Fernández, adding either Caicedo or Ugarte to him, would feel like cheating!

What you are describing Jorginho and Højbjerg as, I always thought of Ndidi. I think they are both way better in terms of passing. Particular on Jorginho it seems harsh. Napoli under Sarri wouldn't have been as good as they were in possession, if it weren't for Jorginho and several other players. I don't think it's accurate to claim that Jorginho was mostly was just a safe passer, who never made progressive passes or that he wasn't creative.

 

[El Jefe]

The thing that stands out for me about him is his first touch, its stupidly good for a young player of his type. Usually players that are classed as enegetic box to box destroyers can lack a bit in that department but he's always has good control of the ball no matter the pace of the pass or pressure around him.

From a fit perspective, yes he's not the most ideal player but I think he must be signed because of what he can be. I see a lot of Essien in him and think with an offensive minded coach like EtH he will unlock even more of that side of his game. His defensive game is already top class but I think he shows promise in qualities like driving with the ball through midfield which he doesn't do so much now.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

I just disagree with the notion that you can make any definitive statement of what kind of passer Caicedo is going to be, when he is 21 and is being compared to players, who are the very best players (and older) for that specific profile. Even if he is never going to be as good as Kroos or de Jong, he can still be an excellent passer and I wouldn't consider him to be limited. In that regard Carrick and Fletcher improved considerably during their time at United for example.

Regarding a partnership with Casemiro, I agree, they aren't the best fit. However the idea is to replace Casemiro with Caicedo eventually, especially if we are trying to get better in possession. Frankly, I have been a little bit surprised at how erratic Casemiro's passing has been this season. Some of that obviously is down to him being instructed to be more adventurous with his passing, but if we are trying to get better at keeping possession, either he needs to improve or needs to be replaced. Considering his age, I think it will be the latter. Furthermore, I think United should sign 2 central midfielders anyway and one of them could be a more specific profile fit. The number of proven good midfielders is extremely limited at the moment, hence why a bit of forward planning would make sense for United. Also, you have Enzo Fernández, adding either Caicedo or Ugarte to him, would feel like cheating!

What you are describing Jorginho and Højbjerg as, I always thought of Ndidi. I think they are both way better in terms of passing. Particular on Jorginho it seems harsh. Napoli under Sarri wouldn't have been as good as they were in possession, if it weren't for Jorginho and several other players. I don't think it's accurate to claim that Jorginho was mostly was just a safe passer, who never made progressive passes or that he wasn't creative.

Oh if that's the impression that I gave then I apologise - I whole-heartedly agree with this statement. My contention was solely that he's not a top tier passer able to dictate play right now - or at least that he hasn't been asked to do that to the same extent as some of his peers.

I was thinking in the short-term primarily here - so yes I agree whole-heartedly that Caicedo would be an ideal replacement for Casemiro in 1-2 years potentially. As I've discussed with @Abraxas though, I just don't think that profile of player makes sense for you at the moment unless you are also buying a top drawer attacking fullback (ideally a right back). Honestly I think it makes more sense for EtH to target an attacking 8 for this summer instead of going after Caicedo who doesn't fill an immediate need, would cost more, and could potentially hamper the pursuit of a top 9 that is badly needed.

Regarding Jorginho - at Napoli he was never the main creator though given that team still had Mertens, Hamsik, Insigne, Zielinski, Hysaj, Maggio, etc. I also think he was much more adventurous in his passing then - probably in no small part due to Serie A teams historically and at the time not being so focused on off-ball workrate. Think this is probably why he's generally been better in the CL and when playing for Italy than in the PL too - he's simply more comfortable with slower pace of play.

Regarding the graph, I think if you re-created it with total passing distance per 90 versus passing distance received per 90 that would be a lot more illustrative. I find it a bit arbitrary to only include passes of 10+ yards in the analysis, and then further context is also stripped by tracking only events.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

He doesn't make sense as a signing. In ETHs tactic he can only play Casemiro's role and he'd be too expensive to be back up.

 

[bucky]

Oh if that's the impression that I gave then I apologise - I whole-heartedly agree with this statement. My contention was solely that he's not a top tier passer able to dictate play right now - or at least that he hasn't been asked to do that to the same extent as some of his peers.

I was thinking in the short-term primarily here - so yes I agree whole-heartedly that Caicedo would be an ideal replacement for Casemiro in 1-2 years potentially. As I've discussed with @Abraxas though, I just don't think that profile of player makes sense for you at the moment unless you are also buying a top drawer attacking fullback (ideally a right back). Honestly I think it makes more sense for EtH to target an attacking 8 for this summer instead of going after Caicedo who doesn't fill an immediate need, would cost more, and could potentially hamper the pursuit of a top 9 that is badly needed.

Regarding Jorginho - at Napoli he was never the main creator though given that team still had Mertens, Hamsik, Insigne, Zielinski, Hysaj, Maggio, etc. I also think he was much more adventurous in his passing then - probably in no small part due to Serie A teams historically and at the time not being so focused on off-ball workrate. Think this is probably why he's generally been better in the CL and when playing for Italy than in the PL too - he's simply more comfortable with slower pace of play.

Regarding the graph, I think if you re-created it with total passing distance per 90 versus passing distance received per 90 that would be a lot more illustrative. I find it a bit arbitrary to only include passes of 10+ yards in the analysis, and then further context is also stripped by tracking only events.

No need to apologise for a misunderstanding or disagreement. Speaking of misunderstanding, I didn't mean that Jorginho was the main creative force behind Napoli's success, rather that he kept them ticking and that he made those progressive passes we were talking about. Players like him, Busquets or de Jong are almost never the main creator.

 

[bucky]

He doesn't make sense as a signing. In ETHs tactic he can only play Casemiro's role and he'd be too expensive to be back up.

Ten Hag has talked about that he needs 2 players in each position. He's clearly not a fan of McTominay, who is rumoured to be sold and who is not good enough anyway. Caicedo would be an obvious improvement on McTominay, while he could still learn from Casemiro. Caicedo would probably also get more opportunities than one would think, given that we were far too reliant on Casemiro this past season.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

No need to apologise for a misunderstanding or disagreement. Speaking of misunderstanding, I didn't mean that Jorginho was the main creative force behind Napoli's success, rather that he kept them ticking and that he made those progressive passes we were talking about. Players like him, Busquets or de Jong are almost never the main creator.

Appreciate that mate!

And sure - Jorginho wasn't the hub or anything, but the players in front of and around him were all significantly more creative than their counterparts at Man United (obviously with the exception of Bruno vs. Zielinski). I guess my point is that I don't see Jorginho and Caicedo as being hugely different on the ball right now - and frankly I just am not sure how a modern team is meant to have both Caicedo and Casemiro in the same team unless there's also at least one elite elite attacking fullback. Frankly, I don't think you have that player currently and that's the big difference this summer versus last - Shaw wasn't the same creative force in the attacking third last year compared to 2021/22.

 

[croadyman]

There's pretty much zero smoke about us

 

[bucky]

Appreciate that mate!

And sure - Jorginho wasn't the hub or anything, but the players in front of and around him were all significantly more creative than their counterparts at Man United (obviously with the exception of Bruno vs. Zielinski). I guess my point is that I don't see Jorginho and Caicedo as being hugely different on the ball right now - and frankly I just am not sure how a modern team is meant to have both Caicedo and Casemiro in the same team unless there's also at least one elite elite attacking fullback. Frankly, I don't think you have that player currently and that's the big difference this summer versus last - Shaw wasn't the same creative force in the attacking third last year compared to 2021/22.

The issue is that you have an attacking fullback problem. Shaw fell off a cliff last year and everyone knows about AWB's limitations. Maybe Shaw can bounce back and maybe Dalot can come in and stay fit and perform at a high level, but if that doesn't happen then you have 4 first choice defenders who don't really like to attack as well as Casemiro who is limited. Given that context, the team pretty clearly needs two attacking 8s to have the typical 5-3-2 / 5-2-3 possession structure.

Now, I am confused. Your post here and above about Shaw don't make sense? Are you sure you are not mixing up Shaw's 20/21 season, when we finished second under Ole, with the disastrous one the year after? He already bounced back in 2022/23? He was very good in 2020/21, which was followed up by the European Championship and then in Ole's final/Rangnick's interim season, he fell off a cliff as you put it.

Anyhow, I agree that we would benefit from right-back, who is a better passer. But I'd rather put our search for that player on hold for another season than miss out on Caicedo. I'd also argue that Shaw, if he can maintain his form next season, is one of the best full-backs offensively and in terms of passing.

 

[giggs-beckham]

Looks like straight fight between those two,sadly we aren't getting involved probably due to uncertainty around what we can offer

Not in the race because we have financial uncertainty and we're after a backup CD

 

[Teja]

I find it incredibly hard to understand why there may be a reasoning that we may need Mounts style more than Caicedo as a midfielder. If there was a Bruno shaped hole in our squad it's completely different.

The theory is that we will attack in a 3-2-5 or 3-box-3 or WM or whatever you want to call it.

----- Rashford --- Martial ---- Antony ----
--------------- Mount ---- Bruno ----------------
-------------- ??? -------- ??? -----------------------
------ Shaw --- Martinez --- KMJ -----------

The two interiors are creative types that are good in tight spaces.

The two in the middle can be made in a couple of different ways: You could have inverted fullbacks or have one of the CBs be a really good on the ball (like Stones, maybe Timber). It's still unclear to me how we'll make the two in the middle given the options we have.

We do need a Rodri type player - Casemiro is not that. We also need an inverted fullback and neither of our starting fullbacks can do a good job at that. Maybe EtH thinks Shaw can invert but he also prefers Martinez in the middle of the 3 man build up structure so if Shaw inverts, we'll have:

--------- Shaw --- Casemiro ---------
----- Martinez -- KMJ -- Dalot ----

The balance seems off there. I don't think Shaw ever did this although we attempted it with Malacia for a bit.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Now, I am confused. Your post here and above about Shaw don't make sense? Are you sure you are not mixing up Shaw's 20/21 season, when we finished second under Ole, with the disastrous one the year after? He already bounced back in 2022/23? He was very good in 2020/21, which was followed up by the European Championship and then in Ole's final/Rangnick's interim season, he fell off a cliff as you put it.

Anyhow, I agree that we would benefit from right-back, who is a better passer. But I'd rather put our search for that player on hold for another season than miss out on Caicedo. I'd also argue that Shaw, if he can maintain his form next season, is one of the best full-backs offensively and in terms of passing.

Sorry yes - didn't mean to be unclear. Two years ago in 20/21 Shaw was among the very best FBs in the world in both directions - but even last year despite the tumult he was still effective attacking-wise but was poor defensively. I was focused primarily on his attacking output with those posts - and this year he was pretty mediocre overall. I agree with you that Shaw is still an excellent passer - but I also think I view him as more of an Ake than an Andy Robertson, if that makes sense. I'd rather have current Shaw solidifying midfield and allowing Rashford to push on supported by an 8 than have him going up and down the whole flank - and more than anything I'd argue that's why EtH wants Mount.

 

[bucky]

Sorry yes - didn't mean to be unclear. Two years ago in 20/21 Shaw was among the very best FBs in the world in both directions - but even last year despite the tumult he was still effective attacking-wise but was poor defensively. I was focused primarily on his attacking output with those posts - and this year he was pretty mediocre overall. I agree with you that Shaw is still an excellent passer - but I also think I view him as more of an Ake than an Andy Robertson, if that makes sense. I'd rather have current Shaw solidifying midfield and allowing Rashford to push on supported by an 8 than have him going up and down the whole flank - and more than anything I'd argue that's why EtH wants Mount.

I guess we have to agree to disagree here.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Ten Hag has talked about that he needs 2 players in each position. He's clearly not a fan of McTominay, who is rumoured to be sold and who is not good enough anyway. Caicedo would be an obvious improvement on McTominay, while he could still learn from Casemiro. Caicedo would probably also get more opportunities than one would think, given that we were far too reliant on Casemiro this past season.

Even as reliant as we were on Casemiro. There is simply no way a Caicedo gets to play s much as he would deserve at that price. And for all the stick mctominay gets on the ball. As an attacking threat in higher up positions he is still better than a Caicedo. I believe Fred is too. That is why I doubt Caicedo would make sense. Its for that same reason I've also seriously doubted any of our Links to Declan Rice. Unless ETH completely changes the attacking shape he is going for. I fully expect him to target pressing 8s for the higher up positions like Mount, Gabri Veiga, Tielmanns etc And 6s like Rabiot , Amrabat, Lavia, Wiehoffer etc who can cheaply cover casemiro as the 6.

 

[dinostar77]

Even as reliant as we were on Casemiro. There is simply no way a Caicedo gets to play s much as he would deserve at that price. And for all the stick mctominay gets on the ball. As an attacking threat in higher up positions he is still better than a Caicedo. I believe Fred is too. That is why I doubt Caicedo would make sense. Its for that same reason I've also seriously doubted any of our Links to Declan Rice. Unless ETH completely changes the attacking shape he is going for. I fully expect him to target pressing 8s for the higher up positions like Mount, Gabri Veiga, Tielmanns etc And 6s like Rabiot , Amrabat, Lavia, Wiehoffer etc who can cheaply cover casemiro as the 6.

I would agree with this. Caicedo isnt the 8 for ETH system. Very good player but not the right fit. Then again if ETH decides to go with a double pivot and allows caicedo to do a kante and go 'hunting' then who knows? But i doubt it.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I would agree with this. Caicedo isnt the 8 for ETH system. Very good player but not the right fit. Then again if ETH decides to go with a double pivot and allows caicedo to do a kante and go 'hunting' then who knows? But i doubt it.

Indeed. It all depends on his vision going forward. The great thing about him is he has shown he isn't afraid to change course if what he initially wants can't happen. Evidenced by switching from a style that would have suited a De jong as the key driver ( a diamond with the tip up) of the system to one with a casemiro type as the 6 (an inverted diamond). I'm sure if say the opportunity to get a Mount didn't naterilise but one for Caicedo was there to take He could easily switch to having two players in the caseniro mould deeper but with one given the brief to ball carry Kante style. Meaning he'd make one of his fullbacks operate way up high

 

[Ronaldinho's snakebite]

He doesn't make sense as a signing. In ETHs tactic he can only play Casemiro's role and he'd be too expensive to be back up.

They can actually play together in a midfield 3. You don't put a £80m player on the bench

 

[zaafi]

They can actually play together in a midfield 3. You don't put a £80m player on the bench

What he means is that Casemiro - Caicedo - Bruno doesn't make sense when it comes to Ten Hag's tactics and his ideas. To achieve the style he wants, he needs to sign the players that fits into his tactical ideas and not necessarily any top player. Mount fits more with what Ten Hag wants than Caicedo. I'm all for signing Caicedo as our #6 though.

 

[luke511]

What he means is that Casemiro - Caicedo - Bruno doesn't make sense when it comes to Ten Hag's tactics and his ideas. To achieve the style he wants, he needs to sign the players that fits into his tactical ideas and not necessarily any top player. Mount fits more with what Ten Hag wants than Caicedo. I'm all for signing Caicedo as our #6 though.

Both midfields work in Ten Hag's system, in general terms Mount as an 8 is better suited to home games, Caicedo as an 8 is better suited to away games. The reality is we dropped a lot more points away from home last season, so the priority should be on Caicedo. By signing him we replace Fred and McTominay, Casemiro cover sorted short and long term, we prevent a top 4 rival from strengthening their midfield and he can also play as a RB advancing into midfield. Plus there isn't the potential option of signing him for free next season. I'm presuming/hoping utd are after him but is having to hold on until the take over is complete, I'd be baffled if we weren't given how he's put in a huge performance in every game he's had against utd.

 

[aeh1991]

What he means is that Casemiro - Caicedo - Bruno doesn't make sense when it comes to Ten Hag's tactics and his ideas. To achieve the style he wants, he needs to sign the players that fits into his tactical ideas and not necessarily any top player. Mount fits more with what Ten Hag wants than Caicedo. I'm all for signing Caicedo as our #6 though.

I have read that often but to me that's a very odd argument as Mount has never played on the position ETH sees him apparently. He has always been the most advanced CM/CAM, if he was not playing on the wings. I just don't see the reasons to make him our priority target, when his best position/role basically overlaps with Bruno's. At the same time, we have seen how Casemiro often couldn't handle being a lone DM and would profit from a hardworking B2B or DLP with decent defending next to him. Rabiot would make much more sense than Mount imo and I am not even a big fan of his.

 

[croadyman]

Both midfields work in Ten Hag's system, in general terms Mount as an 8 is better suited to home games, Caicedo as an 8 is better suited to away games. The reality is we dropped a lot more points away from home last season, so the priority should be on Caicedo. By signing him we replace Fred and McTominay, Casemiro cover sorted short and long term, we prevent a top 4 rival from strengthening their midfield and he can also play as a RB advancing into midfield. Plus there isn't the potential option of signing him for free next season. I'm presuming/hoping utd are after him but is having to hold on until the take over is complete, I'd be baffled if we weren't given how he's put in a huge performance in every game he's had against utd.

Yeah we should at least be in the race for him

 

[zaafi]

I have read that often but to me that's a very odd argument as Mount has never played on the position ETH sees him apparently. He has always been the most advanced CM/CAM, if he was not playing on the wings. I just don't see the reasons to make him our priority target, when his best position/role basically overlaps with Bruno's. At the same time, we have seen how Casemiro often couldn't handle being a lone DM and would profit from a hardworking B2B or DLP with decent defending next to him. Rabiot would make much more sense than Mount imo and I am not even a big fan of his.

I don't think it's about the positions he has played before, but about his abilities, work rate and tactical adaptation. Everything points to Ten Hag looking to implement two creative number 8s, with one being the main creative force, and the other also creative, but primarily initiating build up from deep, and it looks like Ten Hag wants Mount to be this guy. Caicedo may have the abilities to build up from deep, but he lacks in the attacking phase and creative output in the final third, which is where Mount is really good.

Casemiro couldn't handle being a lone DM because Eriksen offers nearly nothing defensively and in terms of work rate, whereas Mount can run all day and has decent defensive stats.

 

[croadyman]

I don't think it's about the positions he has played before, but about his abilities, work rate and tactical adaptation. Everything points to Ten Hag looking to implement two creative number 8s, with one being the main creative force, and the other also creative, but primarily initiating build up from deep, and it looks like Ten Hag wants Mount to be this guy. Caicedo may have the abilities to build up from deep, but he lacks in the attacking phase and creative output in the final third, which is where Mount is really good.

Still desperately need that deep lying playmaker as well,however Erik has clearly been forced into rethink now De Jong won't move

 

[zaafi]

Still desperately need that deep lying playmaker as well,however Erik has clearly been forced into rethink now De Jong won't move

Exactly. The issue here is that there really isn't any other option for this role other than Frenkie de Jong, so he has been forced into something else without becoming a defensive side.

 

[James35]

We are going to get bossed in midfield most games next year once again if we don’t buy someone better than Fred and Bloody McTominay to support Casemiro. If Mount is the guy to have more legs than Eriksen and we get Rabiot on a free I will be relatively happy as long as we buy a top class forward to score the 30% of goals we need to really compete.

If we get just Mount and a young inexperienced forward whilst keeping them then I really worry about our chances of top four next year. Not getting Caicedo or Rice is fine if they stay put but not if they go to our rivals like Mac Allister has already. I have a feeling we are going to do our usual circus show this window and desperately sign players late on and for high fees due to ongoing uncertainty and ineptitude.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I have read that often but to me that's a very odd argument as Mount has never played on the position ETH sees him apparently. He has always been the most advanced CM/CAM, if he was not playing on the wings. I just don't see the reasons to make him our priority target, when his best position/role basically overlaps with Bruno's.

That's the thing though. ETHs Ajax side had 2 players like Bruno operating ahead of a lone DM. Basically two attacking midfielders with the engine, physique and desire to press. He is basically building a system that requires a second Bruno in the XI.

At the same time, we have seen how Casemiro often couldn't handle being a lone DM and would profit from a hardworking B2B or DLP with decent defending next to him. Rabiot would make much more sense than Mount imo and I am not even a big fan of his.

The main reason Casemiro has gotten over run is when paired with Eriksen , Eriksen is almost a passenger defensively. So not enough pressure is placed on the ball by the two players operating ahead of him. Furthermore ETH has moved away from a set up that requires a DLPM. Thus hard working AMs ala Mount or box to box players like Rabiot or Tielmans would suit his new set up best.

 

[Adnan]

For us to sign him we do need the takeover to be completed very soon imo.

But Caicedo absolutely fits into Erik ten Hag's playstyle. We can talk about how good he is defensively and at covering ground and he's very good in that regard. But his biggest strength is his ability against the press in a deeper lying midfield position where De Zerbi utilities him to bait/provoke the opponent into pressing him. And in that role he has been excelling and along with the GK he is the one that makes the system work where Brighton are amongst the best teams in the league at evading/resisting high pressure. The stats tell you what he does in the system and not what else he's capable of doing if given more freedom.

Brighton have a fantastic build up phase and the players below are the reason for them being very good at playing out of pressure. Now look at those players and try and understand why we (United) struggle against teams who press us high. The problem is staring us in the face.

-‐-----------------Steele------------
Veltman--Dunk--Webster--Estupinan
----------Gross-------Caicedo

The video below goes over why Caicedo would be a potentially fantastic signing for United and goes over his off the ball strengths and finishes off by highlighting the main reason he's wanted at top clubs due to his ability in a deeper lying midfield position against high pressing teams.

 

[OrcaFat]

That's the thing though. ETHs Ajax side had 2 players like Bruno operating ahead of a lone DM. Basically two attacking midfielders with the engine, physique and desire to press. He is basically building a system that requires a second Bruno in the XI.


The main reason Casemiro has gotten over run is when paired with Eriksen , Eriksen is almost a passenger defensively. So not enough pressure is placed on the ball by the two players operating ahead of him. Furthermore ETH has moved away from a set up that requires a DLPM. Thus hard working AMs ala Mount or box to box players like Rabiot or Tielmans would suit his new set up best.

Yeah I am persuaded by the idea that EtH prefers a 6 and two 8s.