Moises Caicedo | Chelsea agree £115M fee | signed for Chelsea

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luke511 said:
They're both all rounded enough to play as an 8, it would be a very gifted double pivot. They would be able to take turns as the 6 and 8 with ease.
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Case played in his whole career as an anchor behind two creative midfielders. Obviously with signing Mount EtH want's the same. Caicedo is not a DLP and his main qualities are not creativity and controlling the tempo. Last year EtH wanted De Jong to compliment Casemiro so it's clear that if we're to get someone like Caicedo he'd be Casemiro understudy or will replace him for some games when he can't play. EtH has never played in double pivot and his philosophy is not based on double pivot.

Being linked to Amrabat also makes sense considering the lower fee and him being backup option.

With all the talk that we can't spend this summer freely and considering we have more issues to cover which are more important (GK/ST) it makes little sense to go after Caicedo.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Case played in his whole career as an anchor behind two creative midfielders. Obviously with signing Mount EtH want's the same. Caicedo is not a DLP and his main qualities are not creativity and controlling the tempo. Last year EtH wanted De Jong to compliment Casemiro so it's clear that if we're to get someone like Caicedo he'd be Casemiro understudy or will replace him for some games when he can't play.

Being linked to Amrabat also makes sense considering the lower fee and him being backup option.

With all the talk that we can't spend this summer freely and considering we have more issues to cover which are more important (GK/ST) it makes little sense to go after Caicedo.
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Caicedo controlled the tempo for Brighton this year, he could develop into a DLP as he has the skillset too.
 
luke511 said:
Caicedo controlled the tempo for Brighton this year, he could develop into a DLP as he has the skillset too.
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:lol: :lol:

Every stat and metric points to the opposite and you've had this discussion with countless posters who disagree with you, including myself, and not once have I seen anyone else agree that he controlled the tempo.

You're very persistant and it's actually admirable. But it's wrong. He has never done what you say he has.
Look at Thomas Partey's passing stats for Arsenal this season. They're better than Caicedo, but he has never controlled the tempo or been their DLP.
 
zaafi said:
:lol: :lol:

Every stat and metric points to the opposite and you've had this discussion with countless posters who disagree with you, including myself, and not once have I seen anyone else agree that he controlled the tempo.

You're very persistant and it's actually admirable. But it's wrong. He has never done what you say he has.
Look at Thomas Partey's passing stats for Arsenal this season. They're better than Caicedo, but he has never controlled the tempo or been their DLP.
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I’ve had this discussion with you twice, dinostar77 and Magicfoolbus. Both times you failed to respond after I proved you wrong, and Magicfoolbus ended up seeing my point of view and hoped to see Chelsea sign him because of it. This doesn’t constitute as countless, you have a bad habit of over exaggerating, along with using the word ‘literally’ incorrectly.
 
luke511 said:
I’ve had this discussion with you twice, dinostar77 and Magicfoolbus. Both times you failed to respond after I proved you wrong, and Magicfoolbus ended up seeing my point of view and hoped to see Chelsea sign him because of it. This doesn’t constitute as countless, you have a bad habit of over exaggerating, along with using the word ‘literally’ incorrectly.
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I didn't fail to respond. You literally quoted our whole conversation and it almost took up an entire page which was quite frankly embarrassing to see.
Additionally, you have a bad habit yourself, which is that you keep repeating everything you say even after you've been proved wrong.
Things like how you believe he controls the tempo because he has a high completion rate, despite how both @TheMagicFoolBus and I tried to explain to you that passing volume matters. For some reason, that is something you found incredibly difficult to grasp and instead of actually trying to understand what was being explained to you, you went into a childish mode on how you personally believe it doesn't matter because his completion rate is 89%.

Even after you were encouraged to watch an analysis video on Caicedo, who happens to be one of the best makers of player analysis, you argued it's irrelevant because it was several months old, as if a player suddenly develops one of the rarest abilities in football in such a short time.

I understand that you have an obsession on the player and want us to get him, but what you fail to understand is that it goes against what Ten Hag is trying to build here. I am very fond of the player myself, but you have this weird thing where you hype up his abilities when they're not his strengths. Are you also going to try and convince the posters here that he will be a chance creating machine in a few months?
The stats are in front of you, and objectively he's not dictating the tempo, but your subjective opinion is that he does. Okay then.

Another thing: I've seen you post several times that Caicedo would be brilliant next to Casemiro because both of these players are equally as good as 8s as they are 6s. This is wrong, and because you have a feeling it would work doesn't make it true. They play the same position and share some strengths, though Casemiro is clearly the superior player.
Ten Hag wants his midfielders to contribute in attack and score goals and assist. Playing two defensive midfielders next to each other might make us more tougher in midfield, but still goes against his style of play, and ultimately you don't want to force an attacking-oriented manager to play defensive.
 
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zaafi said:
I didn't fail to respond. You literally quoted our whole conversation and it almost took up an entire page which was quite frankly embarrassing to see.
Additionally, you have a bad habit yourself, which is that you keep repeating everything you say even after you've been proved wrong.
Things like how you believe he controls the tempo because he has a high completion rate, despite how both @TheMagicFoolBus and I tried to explain to you that passing volume matters. For some reason, that is something you found incredibly difficult to grasp and instead of actually trying to understand what was being explained to you, you went into a childish mode on how you personally believe it doesn't matter because his completion rate is 89%.

Even after you were encouraged to watch an analysis video on Caicedo, who happens to be one of the best makers of player analysis, you argued it's irrelevant because it was several months old, as if a player suddenly develops one of the rarest abilities in football in such a short time.

I understand that you have an obsession on the player and want us to get him, but what you fail to understand is that it goes against what Ten Hag is trying to build here. I am very fond of the player myself, but you have this weird thing where you hype up his abilities when they're not his strengths. Are you also going to try and convince the posters here that he will be a chance creating machine in a few months?
The stats are in front of you, and objectively he's not dictating the tempo, but your subjective opinion is that he does. Okay then.
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You specified the point that his high long ball completion % is irrelevant, because he isn't in the top percentile for attempted long balls, I counted this point that Brighton are 19th in the league for attempted long balls yet you haven't acknowledged this. Brighton have been a possession monster this season and Caicedo is a key component, being the deepest midfielder successfully finding team mates under pressure as shown statistically, again you haven't acknowledged this. He's a very good passer statistically but that doesn't seem to sink in for you, you're saying I'm hyping it up when it isn't his strength when it clearly is.
 
luke511 said:
You specified the point that his high long ball completion % is irrelevant, because he isn't in the top percentile for attempted long balls, I counted this point that Brighton are 19th in the league for attempted long balls yet you haven't acknowledged this. Brighton have been a possession monster this season and Caicedo is a key component, being the deepest midfielder successfully finding team mates under pressure as shown statistically, again you haven't acknowledged this. He's a very good passer statistically but that doesn't seem to sink in for you, you're saying I'm hyping it up when it isn't his strength when it clearly is.
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Do you realise that you're strengthening my arguments here?

If Caicedo was an excellent long ball passer, why have they not taken advantage of this? Why has he not sent long balls to Mitoma or March when he has the option to initiate a counter attack? Do you think a player is going to deny his own a team a great opportunity because his manager generally wants him to play short passes?
Why is he fairly average statistically when it comes to progressive passing?

You haven't addressed what I said about Thomas Partey having better passing stats than Caicedo on nearly every metric. Do you call him a controller?
 
duffer said:
I don't know why but everyone shortening "Casemiro" to "Case" bugs me.

It's 8 letters you lazy feckers.
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It's an acceptable thing to get angry about tbf, but how many letters do you draw the line at before it's acceptable to shorten?

Do we go by Carlos Henrique Casemiro, or is that too many?
 
zaafi said:
Do you realise that you're strengthening my arguments here?

If Caicedo was an excellent long ball passer, why have they not taken advantage of this? Why has he not sent long balls to Mitoma or March when he has the option to initiate a counter attack? Do you think a player is going to deny his own a team a great opportunity because his manager generally wants him to play short passes?
Why is he fairly average statistically when it comes to progressive passing?

You haven't addressed what I said about Thomas Partey having better passing stats than Caicedo on nearly every metric. Do you call him a controller?
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What sort of example is this? "Why has he not sent long balls to Mitoma or March when he has the option to initiate a counter attack?" I'm sure Caicedo has starved Mitoma and March of long balls all season :rolleyes: or maybe he has played them plenty of long balls, but prefers to find players closer to him due to their availability in the system playing out from the back and tactical preference, backed up by Brighton being 19th in the league for attempted long balls. That doesn't strengthen your argument. He's 74th percentile for progressive passing, well above average objectively, again this can be down to tactical preference of keeping it shorter rather than long. I've watched far more of Caicedo this season than Partey so I'm not qualified to comment on what he is and isn't capable of, I can see Caicedo has better pass completion in every field so again that's you over exaggerating.
 
zaafi said:
Do you realise that you're strengthening my arguments here?

If Caicedo was an excellent long ball passer, why have they not taken advantage of this? Why has he not sent long balls to Mitoma or March when he has the option to initiate a counter attack? Do you think a player is going to deny his own a team a great opportunity because his manager generally wants him to play short passes?
Why is he fairly average statistically when it comes to progressive passing?

You haven't addressed what I said about Thomas Partey having better passing stats than Caicedo on nearly every metric. Do you call him a controller?
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I actually think Partey is hugely underrated in the build up side of the game.
 
luke511 said:
Caicedo controlled the tempo for Brighton this year, he could develop into a DLP as he has the skillset too.
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From what I’ve seen from him - no. Maybe he can develop that in his game later on, but as of this moment I just don’t see it. It doesn’t make sense to pigeon hole him into a role that he’s yet to develop considering his value.
There are other players that are worth in the 80m that are better suited to it at this very moment.
 
luke511 said:
What sort of example is this? "Why has he not sent long balls to Mitoma or March when he has the option to initiate a counter attack?" I'm sure Caicedo has starved Mitoma and March of long balls all season :rolleyes: or maybe he has played them plenty of long balls, but prefers to find players closer to him due to their availability in the system playing out from the back and tactical preference, backed up by Brighton being 19th in the league for attempted long balls. That doesn't strengthen your argument. He's 74th percentile for progressive passing, well above average objectively, again this can be down to tactical preference of keeping it shorter rather than long. I've watched far more of Caicedo this season than Partey so I'm not qualified to comment on what he is and isn't capable of, I can see Caicedo has better pass completion in every field so again that's you over exaggerating.
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"I'm sure he has". So you don't know? I thought you watched every game of his.

You're impossible to have a debate with because you've made up your mind on him being this deep lying playmaker who dictates the game, despite all the posters you have this discussion with disagree with you, and not a single poster agree with you on this exact topic.

And again with the pass completion rate. I said Partey beats Caicedo on nearly every metric, so how am I over exaggerating? Do you not understand there is more to a player dictating the tempo than completion rate?
 
Dancfc said:
I actually think Partey is hugely underrated in the build up side of the game.
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He absolutely is underrated in this aspect, because Arsenal have Ødegaard pulling the strings creatively and the playmaking, but Partey is not a controller.
 
if Brighton are interested in Scott....let's get the deal done for Caicedo and let him be the replacement. Not sure i see the fit given their style of play but lets do the deal
 
Enzo/Caicedo is a really good pairing. Luckily for everyone they have Poch, so they will just run around a lot and do feck all.
 
zaafi said:
"I'm sure he has". So you don't know? I thought you watched every game of his.

You're impossible to have a debate with because you've made up your mind on him being this deep lying playmaker who dictates the game, despite all the posters you have this discussion with disagree with you, and not a single poster agree with you on this exact topic.

And again with the pass completion rate. I said Partey beats Caicedo on nearly every metric, so how am I over exaggerating? Do you not understand there is more to a player dictating the tempo than completion rate?
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It was sarcasm. Out of the 22 measures under passing in fbref Partey is superior in 11 of them so it's exactly a 50% split between the two, that's why you're over exaggerating by saying Partey excels in nearly every metric. I'm not saying he's a DLP, I said he can develop into one, the one thing I've stuck to is that he has the ability to dictate tempo.

Sorry to bring you into this @Adnan but I'm sure you've touched on this side of Caicedo's game before as well.
 
I am wondering if it is Brighton's play that is conducive to making the Bissoumas or Caicedos look better than they are or is Caicedo really a great player of his own accord. He looks tidy, but maybe he has some limitations in that he is mostly a pure destroyer out there. It may have been why Arteta looked beyond. Great age though, should be a good pickup.
 
bosskeano said:
if Brighton are interested in Scott....let's get the deal done for Caicedo and let him be the replacement. Not sure i see the fit given their style of play but lets do the deal
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They did buy Moder a few years who looked fairly similar to McTominay in that he's a big box to box type so maybe they want one of those types in the squad. If they have Enciso as a 10 and Gilmour as a 6 if Dahoud can't stay healthy and Milner is quite old so that's a really tiny, slow midfield so maybe they want a big mobile guy to balance it.

Though I agree McTom is far better suited to a team playing on the counter like West Ham or Palace.

Obviously yeah, McTominay and say 45M for Caicedo (or Ferguson for that matter thought that seems unlikely) would be a nice piece of business.
 
NoPace said:
They did buy Moder a few years who looked fairly similar to McTominay in that he's a big box to box type so maybe they want one of those types in the squad. If they have Enciso as a 10 and Gilmour as a 6 if Dahoud can't stay healthy and Milner is quite old so that's a really tiny, slow midfield so maybe they want a big mobile guy to balance it.

Though I agree McTom is far better suited to a team playing on the counter like West Ham or Palace.

Obviously yeah, McTominay and say 45M for Caicedo (or Ferguson for that matter thought that seems unlikely) would be a nice piece of business.
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maybe we get lucky and Moyes comes in for Scott once they sell Rice to Arsenal
 
Changeisgood said:
I am wondering if it is Brighton's play that is conducive to making the Bissoumas or Caicedos look better than they are or is Caicedo really a great player of his own accord. He looks tidy, but maybe he has some limitations in that he is mostly a pure destroyer out there. It may have been why Arteta looked beyond. Great age though, should be a good pickup.
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BRIGHTON ARE IN AN AWKWARD POSITION as they have to replace the complete midfield of MWEPU, CAICEDO and MACALLISTER.
MacAllister maybe could be replaced by MODER if he recovers from the serious injury, BUT THE OTHER TWO ARE MORE TRICKY. Mwepu was and Caceido are very quick which makes replacements very tricky and expensive. I tend to think Caceido is playing well below optimum because of injuries and sales last season.

I would want COLWILL and CAICEDO.
 
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UTAretro said:
I am sorry but this is folly.
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That's what makes it a nice piece of business. Chelsea want to pay 70 + 10 in add ons apparently, and I think McTominay is surprisingly worth about 25M or so, but I agree that Brighton would want say 60M and McTominay at minimum.
 
NoPace said:
That's what makes it a nice piece of business. Chelsea want to pay 70 + 10 in add ons apparently, and I think McTominay is surprisingly worth about 25M or so, but I agree that Brighton would want say 60M and McTominay at minimum.
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I don’t mean to be unkind about one of your players on your own forum, but I really don’t think McTominay would fit in our team in terms of style or ability. We play with a double pivot, a number ten, two wingers and a striker. McTominay would work for many teams as a swashbuckling midfield battler going box to box, which isn’t how we play. I think if you asked Brighton fans, 99% of them would prefer any of Groß, Alzate, Moder, Lallana ahead of him, not to mention having just signed Dahoud and Milner and being linked daily with players who much more fit our “buying profile”.

I would be absolutely astonished if Brighton were to have shown even a passing interest in signing McTominay.

I also think Brighton will hold firm and get their price for the player and will only show interest in possible P/X (which is extremely rare in football) if it was a player they already had an interest in. Most of our signings take years of tracking before we move for them. Colwill (who I don’t think we will get as Chelsea rightly want to keep him), Broja and a few other Chelsea options are possible as part payment.

I don’t mean to shit on McTominay, he could do a job for lots of teams, but I don’t think he is a player that De Zerbi would pick.
 
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