Because you still have to invest in the country you play in. Bailly cost around the same money as Keane and is a better player getting Keane's equivalent because he cost £10m less makes savvy business sense but how have you encouraged English youth to excel to the top? We all boast about the United way but then want to moan when there's a hefty price associated with it. This is not me sayin we should get every British player going but our defence on the overall is very good! This will be the second seasons we have the second best defence in he league with this season less reliance on our world class goalkeeper. If we can give Keane a platform why not? The only reason we need an extra defender is because Phil Jones and Smalling are unreliable.
Michael Keane| signed to Everton.
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Because you still have to invest in the country you play in. Bailly cost around the same money as Keane and is a better player getting Keane's equivalent because he cost £10m less makes savvy business sense but how have you encouraged English youth to excel to the top? We all boast about the United way but then want to moan when there's a hefty price associated with it. This is not me sayin we should get every British player going but our defence on the overall is very good! This will be the second seasons we have the second best defence in he league with this season less reliance on our world class goalkeeper. If we can give Keane a platform why not? The only reason we need an extra defender is because Phil Jones and Smalling are unreliable.
Apparently we are also buying back the shit people did after buying burgers at Old Trafford... for 10 times what the supporters paid for them.
I reckon this story is crap and it's just the papers trying make another Pogba deal.
I reckon this story is crap and it's just the papers trying make another Pogba deal.
Big part of United downhill was signing a local manager just because he's British and having none of the credentials those pesky foreigners have. I don't see how Pool or other top teams profited of signing Lallana, Stones, Jones, Smalling, Sterling, etc. for crazy fees.
United problem was not that they've signed top players but LvG and Moyes 'philosophies'. Di Maria didn't do too badly at Real neither at PSG, yet under performed massively at United although off with a bright start.
If you think that with Cleverley, Evans and Welbeck we'd be better under Moyes, then I strongly disagree. One of the best players Moyes signed was Mata and he has been probably the most creative outlet we have had in the last couple of years. Should we continue to play Rooney because he's English, yet constantly stinking up the joint?
I don't really care what nationality our players are, the main point is them being good enough. Are Gibson, Cleverley, Welbeck, Rooney, etc good enough to start week in and week out? I don't think so.
All English clubs that have done something in Europe have moved away from the British approach and embraced foreign ideas. I can't think of a single British manager for example (apart from Fergie of course) who had a particular great European record managing a local team. Spurs have won diddly squat lately and are regularly humbled in Europe, lately by a Belgian team where usually top team from England send players on loan to gain experience, who consequently lost to another Belgium team on 6-3 aggregate and finished 4th this year in Belgium behind colossus Zulte Waregem.
Spurs are hardly a shining example in Europe tbh.
I really don't see the Real Madrid point. Real will most likely finish on around the same points in the league like they did in the previous two years when they finished behind Barca (around 90-93 points), and they won the CL and made it to the SF's the years before he took control.
He inherited essentially Ancelotti's team that won the CL against Atletico 2 years before. The so called introduction of Spanish players is really no different to what his predecessors did before him. Zidane showed Jese the door a 24 years forward with around 100 apps for the club at the time and introduced Lucas. Nacho is 27 years old defender who already was a rotational player and featured in about 20 games per season for previous managers. He featured a lot this season because Pepe is 34 years old and suffered fractured ribs, calf and hamstrung injuries that kept him sidelined for half of the season. Moratta has played around 5 full games this season and was on the bench in moments when he was in better form than Benzema.
I think you are putting too much into this nationalist identity as teams like Barca, Real, Juve, Bayern buy the best players they can get in the respective positions, rather than go national. If they happen to be with the same nationality it's just an added bonus.
I don't need to give you a good argument. You don't rate him... I get that. It's not like there is something I could magically say that will make you suddenly decide he's a good player. Why are you expecting or even asking anyone to persuade you otherwise?
I think he's decent and I'll be happy when he signs for us. Mourinho obviously really rates him too as do some other good managers. As for how he'll do for us... time will obviously tell but I feel confident that we won't regret signing him.
Because it would cost the club £25m
If you want to give him a platform than let him play some games in the first team instead of selling him to Burnley for £2m. Also this is again an example of a enlgish being overhyped, he has done ok at burnley, nothing more, nothing less. He has not been a worldbeater and if you say our defence has been very solid for the last 2 years, I fail to see what someone like Keane has to offer to make it even better. £25m is too much money for a player like him and we shouldn't do it just because he is english. Nobody has a problem with United signing up talented english players and signing a bit more than market value if it has to be done to get them. But paying outright silly money for a bang average player just because he is english and is ex-academy is just beyond stupid.
The purpose of the club should be to win trophies not invest silly money in english football if it brings no benefit to the club. Also I think United is doing plenty for english football, looking at the way we are handling Rashford and how he is developing as a player. This is the United way, get good young english talent and give them a platform. Keyword here being good, which rashford is but keane is not.
Thats because you've made up your mind and all argument that does not support your conclusion is considered invalid.
But is your arguments any better? Why does it matter that "we" sold him "one year ago" (was infact two seasons ago) for little money?
Gotta say I do enjoy that new Burnley kit.....oh wait...
The one error vs Sane aside, that's as accomplished an international debut you're going to see. The way he passes the ball forward with minimal fuss is on a par with Pique or Hummels, and he's also got the simple principles of defending mastered too. All he's lacking is elite experience, in terms of coaching, training and opposition; only way to get that is if he joins a big club.
All of the Bonucci fanboys jumped aboard the bandwagon once he peaks in the past two years, but in reality many Juve fans were unsure about him until that point; it's taken years of exposure to the top level to get him up to the required standard, and I see a lot of similarities between him and Keane at the same age. give him a few years under Jose and MK will reach that level with a much tester shelf life.
Huge upgrade on Smalling in every regard other than pace, but that's something his reading of the game neutralises anyway.
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Because you basically just called me stupid for saying my opinion about the matter. So I challenge you to give me arguments to back that up.
Why when there are better alternatives off shore? If you are getting a better deal signing domestic players I can understand that, but look at the market and tell me why we should go after John Stones, Ross Barkley's and Harry Kane's for 50-60 -80m pounds when you can buy a similar(if not a better player) from Europe for much less?
Unless Unites have become some kind of charity organization helping local talents I really don't see the point.
Most English CB's at the moment are really average and Keane isn't that far off that bunch. You can spend 25m pounds (or close to 30m Euro) elsewhere for a better end product.
I didn't call you stupid. I said maybe you don't know as much as you think you do... directly quoting a post of yours where you flat out claim that Keane isn't good enough and Chelsea wouldn't be dumb enough to spend £25m on him. How do you know that? Maybe you're wrong... maybe they've already tried to sign him...
Most CBs are going for the same money as Keane. It's one of the positions you pay a premium for, especially now as there seems to be a dearth of quality CBs all around Europe. Chelsea bid 60m last year for Koulibaly and were turned down.
We got lucky that Bailly was as cheap as he was, but few had a clue about him before we agreed to terms to sign him and he cost more than this purported fee for Keane. We've also seen foreign CB prospects that were highly touted at the time such as Otamendi, Mangala, Mustafi, etc. fail to justify their transfer fees.
I'm not a huge fan of Keane but 25m for him is basically the new normal for a 3rd CB for a big club in this modern era of insanely expensive transfers.
My argument is that Keane has been at this club for a long time and I expect the club to have a very good idea about the qualities of this player and the level he could reach. The club under management of LVG evaluated him as not good enough to make it here, which is why they agreed to sell him to Burnley.
My other argument is that I have seen him play for United and I have seen him play for Burnley and Basically I'am seeing the same player. He hasn't gotten much better at all, the only difference is that at Burnley he is playing and getting minutes, which is great for him but that doesn't mean he is suddenly good enough for us.
So basically we had the chance to have Keane as one of our first team players, we decided he wasn't good enough and if I see him playing now I agree with the decision that was made by the club at that time in the sense that he could be nothing more but a fringe player for us and hence letting him go was the right decision. Obviously we should have gotten more money from him but I understand why that didn't happen because he was unproven and now at Burnely he is a proven player and he has proven he can be a decent centreback for a midtable PL club.
That is my argumentation. Now I also think United has no need for a decent midtable level centreback, if we want that we can just keep onto Smalling and Jones. What we should be aiming for is a top centreback that will take us to the next level. So paying £25m for Keane makes no sense in that regard.
Mangala cost £42m, Lindelof would cost £50m. Michael Keane has proven more than both in a far superior league, and is going for £25m. But English players are over-priced.
Spurs got Rose, Walker, Alli and Dier for about £20m including all add-ons. The key is putting faith in British players and cultivating them yourself; otherwise you will have to pay more to clubs who themselves did. Simple.
Spurs got Rose, Walker, Alli and Dier for about £20m including all add-ons. The key is putting faith in British players and cultivating them yourself; otherwise you will have to pay more to clubs who themselves did. Simple.
How do you know he's done okay and not been a worldbeater? Is it because no one has biged him up like John Stones? Do you even watch him? Can you tell me his strengths and weaknesses? You say bang average you'll have to expand on that.
To answer your question on why sell him.. well he doesn't play and establish himself if he stays. What we should do is let him go to Everton, improve get hyped up to Stones like recognishion then same him for £50m because his hype now justifies it. But we can still moan because we sold him for peanuts and then refused to buy him for £20m when he moved to Everton.
Gotta disagree with you here mate. Currently living in Barcelona and having been here for a couple of years I can say this that the people here value their local talent far more than the British do. For Barca it is important to have a Catalan core to their squad, for them it is an essential ingredient of their recent success. They attribute the barren years after LVG's first tenure to the fact that he got rid of many local players and the team lacked the Barca spirit. Real also make sure they have the best Spanish players playing for them, they always have a strong Spanish core. Even when Spain was not dominating on the world stage they always had a core of guys like Raul, Casillas, Guti, Hierro, Salgado etc.
Juventus have always had a strong Italian core, no matter which era you look at. For Juve and Milan (not so much Inter) it is essential in the clubs' mentality to have a strong domestic core.
Bayern too have always had a strong domestic presence in their squad. Even during their fallow years in the mid 00s they did not abandon those principles.
It is one of Man Utd's ethos to have a strong British core, to quote SAF, "Utd must always have a strong British core". If for no other reason it is that local players know the stature and the standing of the club they are representing, any British player will have grown up knowing that its a huge privilege for Utd and they will automatically give that 10-20% extra whilst playing for us. We are going through a lean period, like Barca, Bayern and pretty much every big club before has gone, but I don't think that means we should let go of one of our basic ethos. It is one of the things that separates us from the likes of City, who have no history of being successful and are desperate for success anyway it comes.
Like who? That's the arguement.. we bring in foreign players that are pretty crap.. your top level players I get it. But to get Benetia because he cost £5m cheaper makes no sense to me.
I'm not sure Keane is valued at 25m if we come knocking to be fair mate. With the new TV deal there is a lot of money coming in and even the lower Prem sides can raise their valuation for local talent. Keane is not nearly as highly regarded as Koulibaly, Otamendi, Mustafi and the likes at the time and was playing in Championship 2 years ago. I don't think he has had such a spectacular season either to be honest. He was solid and one of the better domestic CB's but not at the level Ottamendi has shown in his last year in La Liga for example to raise his valuation to that.
Right, but in a time where Yannick Bolasie goes for 30m, Keane for 25m isn't some ridiculous overpay. There is a new normal in the transfer market, especially when it comes to domestic transfers in England. People need to adjust to that reality. We could see the world record transfer for Pogba get knocked over a handful of times in the next year or two.
25m is like what 12m was 5-6 years ago.
I don't see the big issue with the fee, if all goes as hoped he will be spending at least the best part of his career with us. Yes it might sting a because he was let go for peanuts but that shouldn't stop us buying him back.
What ?
No what we should do is look at good centrebacks and don't waste our time on the likes of Keane or Stones for that matter.
I never wanted Stones, I never rated him, I'am glad the club didn't buy him and saw past the hype. And I hope they will not fall for the hype of Keane aswell
I have seen him play versus United this season and was far from impressed. I have also seen some performance compilation videos from him and was also not impressed. I have seen him at United over the years, never impressed me.
I think he lacks physical presence
I think he can't handle pace very well
I think his ability to read the game is seriously overrated and he is prone to making a defence error
Obviously he has got some qualities and all in all isn't a bad player but not at the standard a top club like United should be aiming for. Hence paying £25m makes no sense regardless off the fact we sold him for £2m 2 seasons ago.
If we got him on a free transfer, then I would probably accept.
My guess is that he would almost never play in our first team, assuming that Jones/Smalling are fit.
We need top class talent....not a player only good enough to play for Burnley or a Championship side.
In any case, I don't think Jose is foolish enough to buy more deadwood.
The fact that he is not good enough to play in our first team, should stop us from buying him back.
My guess is that he would almost never play in our first team, assuming that Jones/Smalling are fit.
We need top class talent....not a player only good enough to play for Burnley or a Championship side.
In any case, I don't think Jose is foolish enough to buy more deadwood.
The fact that he is not good enough to play in our first team, should stop us from buying him back.
Yeah of course, but you have to bear in mind that La Liga is the best league in the world right now(which of course Barca has a huge part in) and many of the young up and coming talents come from there. Barca's academy is top notch and they crop the rewards of it and the base Cruyff created there, but take this year for example - it's the first year since Pep took over when there are only 9 Spanish players in the squad. They've replaced the likes of Xavi with Rakitic, brought in French defenders Umtiti and Digne, bought Gomes and Arda and loaned out/sold Tello, Bartra, Sandro, Samper, Munir etc.
Same for Juve as their defensive core has exclusively been mostly Italian, but that's where the best defenders are.
My point is the top teams buy the top talent and play the top talent regardless of their nationality and we should do the same, not employ managers just for being Scottish
Yeah but we have two 12m defenders in Jones and Smalling already and IMO already a better pair in Rojo/Bailly. Why do we need to buy another one?
That is just BS, particularly in reference to Real Madrid. The key to success is what you can do on the pitch which is independent of where you are from.
Real Madrid and other big clubs buy local talent cos they are forced to do so, else they would simply just buy the best players without any regard to nationality. Most top clubs are dominated by foreigners, with barely the minimum number of local talent.
Real Madrid squad:
Spanish: Dani Carvajal, Sergio Ramos,Nacho, Kiko Casilla,Lucas Vázquez,Marco Asensio,Álvaro Morata,Isco,Rubén Yáñez,
Foreigners: Keylor Navas, Pepe, Raphaël Varane, Cristiano Ronaldo,Toni Kroos,Karim Benzema,James Rodríguez,Gareth Bale,Marcelo,Casemiro,Fábio Coentrão,Mateo Kovačić,Mariano,Luka Modrić,Danilo,
Madrid have only 9 out 25 spanish players with only 2 being in the starting 11 and only Carvajal is Castilla product
For Real Madrid the key identity is "Best Talents in the World"
Yeah but we have two 12m defenders in Jones and Smalling already and IMO already a better pair in Rojo/Bailly. Why do we need to buy another one?
Keane is younger and not perpetually hurt like Jones. Seems like a relatively straightforward decision if you believe, like I do, one of those 2 will be moved on this summer.
Yeah but we have two 12m defenders in Jones and Smalling already and IMO already a better pair in Rojo/Bailly. Why do we need to buy another one?
Exactly rather than adding someone like Keane, we should be aiming at getting rid off Smalling or Jones or both and adding a top centreback like Manolas or Van Dijk.
Tuanzebe is also a quality player who has the skillset to step up and be a first team player. Him Bailly, Rojo and a top centreback is an elite defence that we should be aiming for.
We've bought a lot of British crap as well. Our best players currently are foreigners.
Keane has 2 seasons under his belt where he played more than 20 games per season. Burnley have no Europe to worry about so their schedule is usually a game per week. He's also less than a year younger than Jones.
Keane injury record is hardly something you can be sure about given the amount of playing time so far in his career.
Yeah but we have two 12m defenders in Jones and Smalling already and IMO already a better pair in Rojo/Bailly. Why do we need to buy another one?
There's absolutely no reason to pursue this transfer other than romanticism/nostalgia. Take out Smalling and Jones as so many seem eager to and we're still left with four options who's IMO currently just as good and/or potentially better than Keane in Bailly, Rojo, Blind and Tuanzebe. We've got good numbers and characters in the squad, so if we're going to sign a CB then he needs to be something else.
Well the general opinion here is that Barca are struggling because they bought average foreign imports rather than playing the La Massia products. Most want the likes of Deulofeu and Tello to be brought back. They still struggle to believe that Barca let Thiago go.Yeah of course, but you have to bear in mind that La Liga is the best league in the world right now(which of course Barca has a huge part in) and many of the young up and coming talents come from there. Barca's academy is top notch and they crop the rewards of it and the base Cruyff created there, but take this year for example - it's the first year since Pep took over when there are only 9 Spanish players in the squad. They've replaced the likes of Xavi with Rakitic, brought in French defenders Umtiti and Digne, bought Gomes and Arda and loaned out/sold Tello, Bartra, Sandro, Samper, Munir etc.
Same for Juve as their defensive core has exclusively been mostly Italian, but that's where the best defenders are.
My point is the top teams buy the top talent and play the top talent regardless of their nationality and we should do the same, not employ managers just for being Scottish
Anway I get what you are saying that you should buy a top player irrespective of nationality, but I feel that these signings should supplement a well established pool of British talent. For example if we sign someone like Keane and Dier (one a Utd youth product and another a childhood Utd fan) to go along with more skillful foreign imports like Griezmann, Bernardo Silva etc I would be quite happy.
And as a 3rd CB I don't see that as much of a problem. There's risk in every transfer but he doesn't have a significant injury history like Jones. Simply not having experience with midweek European fixtures doesn't mean if he's put into a situation where that's a reality he's going to suddenly become injury prone.
Like I said, he wouldn't be the CB I'd target, but 25m is a reasonable price for him given the realities of the current environment in the transfer market. Van Dijk has had a good season and suffered a serious injury and the fee being quoted for him is double that.
Yea I'd love a great British core mate if it is Bruce or Pallister that we're talking about, it's not like I'm hater of English talent or something, but I just don't see the quality currently and with even more inflated prices compared to foreigners I just don't see the point investing in local talent at the moment.
Take Rashford for example - he's set for a great future(touches wood) and I think he's one of the best talents England has produced so I'm very happy to have him in our ranks, but being English is just a bonus to his overall ability.
TBH I'd like to see a more experienced CB to come in and partner Bailly so that he can learn from him, but also give us more experience especially with CL football next year(if we win EL).
As someone else said I don't like Keane in a high line(which we will play most likely at home against lower sides). And it could be problematic whether he will fit right in.
We don't need a 3rd CB, we need someone to start next to Bailly, Rojo and Tuanzebe can be back-up. No Keane is needed, nor Jones or Smalling so they can both leave if an offer comes in for either of them if no offer comes in, we will keep them on as squad players but it doesn't make sense to add another squad player with Keane.
Just look at that Eric Bailly was bought for 20 mil less than Stones yet Eric is the better player
What realities? Mats Hummels went to Bayern for £28m and we bought Mkhitaryan for £26m just a year ago. Keane is never ever worth £25m, not even with 6yrs left on his contract let alone one.
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Keane has played 20+ times for the past 5 years not 2.
He also only has about 40 career games less than Jones. 160 appearances over 5 seasons is good time span to judge his injury proneness.
Fair enough. I don't necessarily agree with you but we are all entitled to our opinions.
FC Bayern once decided that Hummels was not good enough. Aston Villa once decided that Gary Cahill was not good enough. Inter once decided that Pirlo was not good enough. Sometimes clubs makes mistakes. Sometimes it might be for the best at that time, but might change.
In my opinion, Keane has developed quite a bit at Burnley. I'm not sure he would at Man Utd.
Buying domestically in Germany and in England is a totally different thing. Also Hummels and Mkhi both only had a year remaining on their contracts if IIRC. A different kettle of fish altogether.
I agree with you. I'd prefer somebody with more experience, I'm just not as down on Keane for the reported price as much as you are. Normal disagreement.
We need more than 2 backups as we've seen this season. Tuanzebe also may be sent out on loan to get consistent playing time for all we know. I simply don't have the same issue you do with spending 25m on a rotation option at CB because that to me is a normal price to pay in this market.
Like I've said in this thread I'd also prefer to sign a different option at CB than Keane, I'm just not vehemently opposed to it.
aye agreed. BTW Barcelona is great, one of my favorite cities to live in by farFair enough. I don't necessarily agree with you but we are all entitled to our opinions.
Those are very significant improvements. Those plus him being one of ours and English, will make the deal worthwhile. We can't keep hanging on to Jones and Smalling. I also think there is some truth to the Lindelof rumour. So if we have Bailly, Lindelof, Rojo and Keane as center back options, that would be superb.
At times we mention some of these other great talents out there but transfers are not exactly as straightforward as simply wanting a player and having him. What if they don't want to come? What if their clubs don't want to sell them? What if they don't fit into the manager's style or plans? What if they are too expensive? Etc. There are so many factors that determine the players you eventually can buy.
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