Music Michael Jackson is Dead (All general comment)

From what I've read about the strip search, it's been said that there was strong correlation but it wasn't a 'direct' match to the claims made

I also can't understand a settlement, for however much money it was. You can argue it makes no sense for the Chandlers to settle, they want to see justice done, at the same time why would you pay someone millions for making a wholly false allegation against you?

My gut is that Jackson did nothing sexual wrong, but went beyond the boundaries of what's socially and maybe morally acceptable. But none of us know really do we?

I suspect if the truth ever came out (if it hasn't already), folk would choose to believe what they want to believe now anyway
 
afrocentricity said:
So, did you look that stuff up just now or were you saving it? That's interesting stuff... I have serious doubts about that claim and that family's integrity.
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I've read it all before.

Not that particular blog, but many others. I thought i could articulate the argument but i clearly couldn't - i have a decent retention for concepts but not facts.

It does go to show the force and extent of this demonising process and the profound effect it must have had on his life. I think it lead to his death. People still perpetuate the same old tripe on message boards ('i hope the paedohpile rots') when, all of the evidence suggests, he was the closest thing to an 'altruistic' celebrity we will ever get. His image is sullied by allegations and an unruly press (one that we should all be very careful in not letting it indoctrinate us or make broad assumptions from) - his 'weirdness' became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The News of the World published that shit about 'Jordy Chandler's Diary' - that is a fecking disgrace in my eyes. They need to take a long, hard look at the facts and themselves. I don't suppose they will - rag-journals are full of desperately uneducated (in the art of encapsulating the 'spirit of the truth'), prejudice twats. The person with the greatest imagination prevails in this instance.

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/new...-diary-of-sex-abuse-with-Michael-Jackson.html
 
Brad said:
From what I've read about the strip search, it's been said that there was strong correlation but it wasn't a 'direct' match to the claims made

I also can't understand a settlement, for however much money it was. You can argue it makes no sense for the Chandlers to settle, they want to see justice done, at the same time why would you pay someone millions for making a wholly false allegation against you?

My gut is that Jackson did nothing sexual wrong, but went beyond the boundaries of what's socially and maybe morally acceptable. But none of us know really do we?

I suspect if the truth ever came out (if it hasn't already), folk would choose to believe what they want to believe now anyway
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Nobody wants your 'gut feeling' regarding sexual abuse allegations.

You do the man a disservice if you don't look at the facts.

Every interview that you have ever seen is cut, pasted and twisted ('strong correlation' - what, between a penis and a penis?). Loaded questions and a manipulated narrative.

Look at this:

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/new...-diary-of-sex-abuse-with-Michael-Jackson.html

Why the feck should people get away with that (consider the facts in that blog)?
 
Younited.7 said:
Nobody wants your 'gut feeling' regarding sexual abuse allegations.

You do the man a disservice if you don't look at the facts.

Every interview that you have ever seen is cut, pasted and twisted. Loaded questions and a manipulated narrative.

Look at this:

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/new...-diary-of-sex-abuse-with-Michael-Jackson.html

Why the feck should people get away with that (consider the facts in that blog)?
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What are the 'facts' though? What you choose to believe and pass off? Back up the claims in that very first paragraph for a start mate as I challenged you too

If they were that fecking clear cut, Jackson's career wouldn't have been ruined by them, and everyone would have roundly condemned the false allegations and got on with their hero worship, or not particularly caring state

None of us know. There is evidence you could point to on both sides. Some of the evidence to me looks stronger to support Jackson, and from what I've pieced together about him... from the media... I have every right to put a gut feeling out there and air it. Especially when it supports the guys innocence
 
There's a good article in The Times today about the Cardiff manager, Dave Jones, also once accused of sexually abusing minors.

You know, that is a phrase that I used to use a lot. ‘No smoke without a fire’. It just seems obvious that if there is a controversy surrounding someone, then something has to be wrong. But that is not a phrase you would hear me saying now. I have learnt the hard way that it is possible to be accused without there being a shred of truth.
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article6578727.ece
 
EricaNo7 said:
well if it's true jordy chandler lied, he should be feeling a very guilty man today ( i would hope )
i see that there are a few articles about this on the internet - has it been substantiated yet?
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No. I read it yesterday - it originates from some obscure website. It's clearly fake.
 
The best narrative account of the second case:

No one will be more devastated by the failure to convict Michael Jackson than Tom Sneddon, the hot-blooded Santa Barbara district attorney who has pursued the entertainer doggedly since allegations against him first surfaced more than 12 years ago. But perhaps no one is more responsible than the former boxer, dubbed "Mad Dog" for his confrontational style, for not securing his place in legal history as the man who jailed the King of Pop.

From his bombastic, often flustered courtroom delivery to his decision to "overcharge" Jackson with a 10-count indictment that included an elaborate conspiracy that was never proved nor linked to the star, Mr Sneddon's zeal to convict often appeared to overshadow the evidence at his disposal.
Many argued that the conspiracy charge was the Achilles' heel of an already weak case and served only to distract attention from the alleged abuse, enabling the defence to focus on savaging the credibility of the accuser's highly unstable mother, the main conspiracy witness.

But there were also critical flaws in the abuse allegations, which were never clearly spelled out by the only two witnesses - Gavin Arvizo, the alleged victim, and his brother Star.

In his opening statement, Mr Sneddon, 63, who is in his sixth term as district attorney and on the cusp of retirement, told the court that Jackson's world was "rocked" by Martin Bashir's explosive documentary, Living With Michael Jackson, in which the star revealed that he liked to share his bed with young boys and is seen cuddling up to Gavin, then 13. The film turned Jackson's life into a "train wreck", triggering the "once superstar's desperate attempt to salvage his once very powerful music career".

Then, according to Mr Sneddon, panic beset the pop star's camp. Jackson and his cohorts set about abducting the Arvizo family - "a dangerous loose end" - and forcing them to film a gushing interview about the singer to rebut Bashir's documentary. They were then held at Neverland and a hotel near Los Angeles while Jackson plotted to spirit them off to Brazil.

It was also at this point that the superstar allegedly started to abuse Gavin, an unlikely timeline that the defence attacked as "absurd". Tellingly, Ann Gabriel, Ian Drew and Rudy Provencio - the first witnesses who Mr Sneddon named as "close to the defendant" and who would testify how Jackson's alarm gave rise to the conspiracy - were all duds. If anything, they reinforced the impression that Jackson's ex-wife Debbie Rowe gave of the star as a victim of the "opportunistic vultures" circling him.

Of all the backfiring prosecution witnesses, Miss Rowe, the mother of two of his three children, was the most spectacular. The blonde former nurse, who is locked in a bitter custody battle with Jackson, effectively killed off the conspiracy charge. Instead of claiming that an interview in which she heaped praise on the star was "completely scripted" by Jackson's aides, she said she spoke from the heart and even described him as "my friend".
But to many it was the credibility of the Arvizo family, the trial's most important witnesses, that rendered the prosecution case unwinnable.
Robert Sanger, one of Jackson's lawyers, described Mrs Arvizo as "one of the most clearly deceptive witnesses that has ever appeared in any court".
Jurors may well have shared that view. During five days of emotional testimony, the 37-year-old mother of four was by turns combative, self-righteous and maudlin as she detailed how shadowy "killers" threatened her during the family's alleged captivity and plotted to carry her children off in a hot air balloon.

Thomas Mesereau, Jackson's masterful, silver-maned lawyer, delighted in highlighting how the family went on shopping sprees during the period they were supposedly held hostage, with body waxes for Mrs Arvizo and orthodontic work for the boys. The family also "escaped" from and returned to Neverland three times, once in a Rolls Royce, but never once called for help.

Throughout the 66 days of trial evidence the defence sought to portray Mrs Arvizo as a practised con-artist who used Gavin's battle with near-terminal cancer to extract money from celebrities before masterminding the abuse case against Jackson and coaching her children to lie under oath. This portrayal was helped when the mother, who took the fifth amendment to avoid incriminating herself over alleged benefit fraud, admitted perjury during a past civil case in which she accused department store security guards of assault and won a $152,000 settlement. Mrs Arvizo's children could not fail to be contaminated by the annihilation of her credibility. But even before she testified, they fared poorly on the stand. Gavin, his sister Davellin, 18, and Star, 14, all admitted lying and appeared hazy and inconsistent on the details of key events. Star admitted telling several different versions of how he walked in as Jackson masturbated with one hand shoved down the underpants of a sleeping Gavin. And while Gavin at first appeared credible as he described how Jackson twice molested him, during cross-examination he too exhibited the slipperiness of his siblings.
It emerged that he did not report the abuse until after his mother had consulted the same civil lawyer who won a large settlement from Jackson over the 1993 abuse claims. The teenager also struggled to explain why he told a former teacher he was never abused.

The prosecution's major victory - persuading the judge to allow evidence of previous, unproven allegations against Jackson - gave rise to some of the trial's most lurid testimony.

A parade of former Neverland employees described how they saw the singer groping five young boys in the early 1990s, among them Macaulay Culkin, the Home Alone star, and Jordan Chandler, the boy Jackson paid a rumoured $20 million to in 1993. But most of the witnesses had either sued or sold stories about their former employer and only one of the five alleged victims took the stand. Chandler refused to testify and the three others - Culkin, Brett Barnes and Wade Robson - appeared for the defence to claim that nothing happened.

Several videos shown during the trial also harmed the prosecution. In the so-called rebuttal video, which the family claims was scripted, the Arvizos appeared natural and relaxed as they laughed, joked and rhapsodised about "Daddy Michael".

And while it was Bashir's film that put Jackson in the dock, the British journalist was probably also a key factor in his acquittal. The court was shown out-takes of interviews that never made the documentary, allowing the singer to effectively testify without cross-examination. In them he appears the sensitive man-child, forever seeking the play-filled youth he never had.

There was never any doubt that the feud between the singer and Mr Sneddon would end one of their careers. Now, unless the erstwhile superstar can stage what appears an unthinkable recovery from the most traumatic four months of his life, it seems the sordid confrontation will have ended both.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...court-drama-that-held-America-spellbound.html

If people bothered to read the legal files (or a decent account), and actually take heed of what they say, i'm sure they'd find that elusive truth: what happened and why.

Martin Bashir's documentary and mass media were such a massive part of his demise. The portrayal and subsequent witch-hunt (post-Bashir) was utterly grotesque - especially, notably, in English rags. 'A cautionary tale' of corruption and greed - be very careful what you read.

I'll let it wash over you.
 
Spoony! said:
Yes, but you said he invited children around because they're innocent and aren't using him for ulterior motives, yet he's was fully aware that their parents were using them to do exactly that - make money out of his misfortune. Again, I ask, what the hell were his advisors doing?! I mean, feck me - he's already had an out of court settlement, you'd have thought he/they(his people) would've made sure it wouldn't have happened again. As I said above, these children were being used/whored by their parents and he probably knew that.
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But He didn't have advisors in actual fact. Just yes men enablers mostly and leeches. Never looking out for his best interests. That is why they let him naively think the children would never ever trun on him, while encouraged by their parents to do so.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
He didn't have advisor in actual fact. Just yes men enablers mostly and leeches.
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His last ten years reminded me of what Howard Hughes was later in life, people just leeching off him, and the man becoming so disenchanted with the world that they totally withdrew from it.
 
Alex said:
His last ten years reminded me of what Howard Hughes was later in life, people just leeching off him, and the man becoming so disenchanted with the world that they totally withdrew from it.
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:)

I made exactly the same comparison the other day.

It think it's wrong that Michael Jackson had to endure this, twice. The witch-hunt is still on; wankers like Rams still hold ridiculous opinions based on a pack of lies. I'm surprised at the others for involving 'weirdness' and that fateful comment on Bashir's program without viewing the context of it.

Head's out of my arse now.
 
Younited.7 said:
Jordan never accurately described the marks on Michael’s genitalia. In fact, he wasn’t even the one who drew it in the first place; Evan Chandler (his father) did. In January 1994, USA Today printed an article confirming that, “photos of Michael Jackson’s genitalia do not match descriptions given by the boy who accused the singer of sexual misconduct.” Some tabloid reports may indicate otherwise but keep in mind that the District Attorney brought his “evidence” in front of two grand juries and charges were not filed. If the photos matched the boy’s description, the case would have probably gone to trial.

http://floacist.wordpress.com/2007/11/08/settlement-not-enough/

If I a was an abused victim as a child, I wouldn’t want nor accept money. If a child and/or a parent settles for money they’re fecking heartless, lack of moral and have no decency. You do not accept money from a criminal who violated your son or daughter. A better question is why take money to forget you were molested? If I was a victim of rape or molestation, I and my family would want that perpetrator to be in prison – more likely for himself being abused, and see how he likes it. Let an offender free into the public?

What a lot of people simply do not understand is that there was never, ever a single iota of information which connected Jackson to the 1993 allegations, and yet there was an absolute wealth of information which suggested he was innocent. What people also don’t realize is that when Jackson paid his settlement, he was settling a civil case not a criminal case; he was not being prosecuted, he was being sued. There is a clause in the settlement which states that Jackson in no way acknowledges any wrongdoing by signing the settlement. There is another clause which specifically states that a settlement in the civil case in no way affects the recipients’ right to testify in a criminal case. The reason no criminal case was brought in 1993 was that the allegations were ludicrous and they couldn’t find any information to back them up. Thomas Sneddon presented the case to two grand juries and both of them laughed him out of court. He wasn’t even allowed to bring charges because his case was so pathetic.

The belief Jackson ‘bought his way out of jail’ has no weight yet everyone uses that as their blind justification of guilt. There was never a case against Jackson in 1993 and that was evident over a year prior to the settlement. With the criminal case in limbo because it was so moronic and the allegations hanging over his head until the media got some resolution, a settlement was the only way Jackson could make everything disappear. Diane Dimond known for her stupid antics to try to make anything ‘Michael Jackson’ even bigger than what it was, leaked the actual documents of the settlement. In the documents one find many ‘interesting’ things. For example, in the document Michael Jackson denies ever having any sexual contact with Jordan Chandler. And to make things even more interesting, the parents of Jordan Chandler, Evan and June Chandler agreed to that denial. Here is that part of the document:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/graphics/art3/0616041jacko5.gif

Also, in the document it actually says the Chandlers can only speak of the case in a court of law. For 10 years the media has been spreading the lie that the settlement somehow stopped the Chandlers from testifying against Jackson. Another myth destroyed by the factual document.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/graphics/art3/0616041jacko7.gif

Another myth that the settlement was for more than 30 million when in fact it was only 15,331,250, both Evan and June Chandler obtained 1.5 million while Larry Feldman obtained 3 million and 10% of the settlement which would bring his earnings to 5 million dollars.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/graphics/art3/0616041jacko21.gif

And how much Jordan Chandler got? The most he could’ve gotten was 8 million dollars. Who leaked this private document? The only party that had this particular document was Lisa Marie Presley’s attorney at the time. So who gave it to Diane Dimond? Hmmm.

Entire document here:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0616041jacko1.html

You also left out the part where Jordan and has told people [personal] that Michael Jackson is not a pedophile. You also left out the part where last year in July, Evan Chandler struck his son with a dumbbell and basically tried to murder him.

http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/decisions/appellate/a0422-05.opn.html

What a great father. Not only that, he wrote a book about his son’s rape. “Michael Jackson Was My Lover-The Secret Diary of Jordie Chandler”. Even his brother chipped in. Raymond Chandler, author of book “All That Glitters: The Crime and the Cover Up” which deals with the alleged sexual abuse of his nephew Jordie by Michael Jackson. Team effort! How considerate. [edit] That book was written by Victor Guiteriezz, he also said that there was a videotape of Michael molesting one of Jermaine’s sons. Michael sued him about the book AND Hard Copy(they ran the story about the fake videotape) and Michael won the suit, but Victor left the country. It was one of the few times Michael actually fought back the allegations.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/6996/bookqf2.jpg

You also forgot the part where Evan Chandler was caught on tape speaking about his extortion plans on the telephone. You can read the whole transcript here

http://floacist.wordpress.com/2007/10/25/the-tapes-will-come-out-court-transcript-of-chandler/

Please don’t ever leave a comment like that again. I know first hand what it feels like to be raped. I’m not going to go into detail, because thats personal. Do you know how that feels like? Maybe you do, maybe you don’t. Point is. Let me tell you something. I am not some crazy fan who believes in his innocence because I like ‘Beat It’ and ‘Thriller’. If he was a child molester I’d burn all my CDs & memorabilia and wish him to burn in hell.

Do I approve of Michael having sleepovers with young children that are not his own? NO! That violates a social norm, and that is why it is looked down upon. However, entire families visit the Ranch. There is no way possible that this man could possible have the time and secrecy to abuse a child in his house, and not have the victim find their way out and tell their parents immediately. When Michael infamously said he shared his bed, he didn’t mean his literal bedroom. They’re not even IN his bedroom. His home is 3,000 acres. Guests stay over in the guest rooms, as in parents and their children. If said children would like to stay with Michael (and Lisa Marie Presley his ex-wife testified this herself that they follow them where ever they go) he specifically said that he tells them to ask their guardians if its okay. And if they do, Michael sleeps on the floor. It is rude to let a guest sleep on a coach, a floor or any other uncomfortable position while you stay in the comfort of your own bed.

http://floacist.wordpress.com/2007/08/20/where-is-jordan-chandler-now/
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Why has none of this ever been printed or brought to the mass media then? I was always fairly confident Jackson was innocent of any wrongdoing, now I am 100% so.
 
It does, thinking about it he must have been one of the loneliest people in the world, which is strange considering he was the most famous person on the planet.

I feel incredibly sorry for the man.
 
Moonwalker was on Fiver just now...Terrible film, although it wasn't really a film, just BAD in video form with awful skits.

All I could think while watching was how come I didn't take drugs and watch this when I was a student?...It would've been fantastic...It's complete tosh but worth it for the extended Smooth Criminal bit which is utterly peerless in terms of dancing in a music video. Brilliant stuff that is. He was a marvelously elegant man in his prime
 
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A bad father indeed, the kids look mortified.
 
Joe Jackson is such a twat, basking in Michael's glory tonite at the BET awards
 
Jesus Christ, Joe Jackson just said he hadnt finished with Michael's funeral arrangements then he pushes his company what a joke of a person and horrible father.
 
I think i feel the most sad when i listen/watch his songs from when he was young and/or with the jackson5... to think that little boy just died of a heart attack.
 
Smart move there Joe Jackson; getting power of attorney by grabbing Michael's kids sharpish.



Janet Jackson: "...all our family wanted to be here, but uh [look up to right to access lie from brain] they just could bear it..."

I know exactly what you mean Janet - they just couldn't bear that the money train wouldn't be stopping for them anymore.



Jamie Foxx: " We want to celebrate this black man, he was black - he belonged to us"

No, he wanted nothing to do with black people. He did everything humanly possible to seperate himself from black people. Get it right. And your moon-walk was ridiculous.
 
Why has his death turned into a : He was a Black man. The mans died, why is his race constantly brought up by the black community especially? Is Jamie Foxx saying as white people, we shouldn't care, or shouldn't listen to his music?

Racism, eh? Has many, many evil heads.
 
If Farrah Fawcett's family suddenly claimed that she was a white woman, we'd never hear the end of it.
 
You lot are ridiculous... he was black, whether or not he tried to hide it. Should we as black people not mention that fact in fear of upsetting touchy people like yourselves? No ones calling him MLK are they?

Maybe black people have more of a tendency to feel proud of other successful black people... it gives them something to aspire to. Nothing wrong with that...
 
Livvie said:
If Farrah Fawcett's family suddenly claimed that she was a white woman, we'd never hear the end of it.
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Why? and if so I'd say the people bleating were as ridiculous as you lot... are we not allowed to refer to skin colour any more?
 
AdZzUtd said:
Why has his death turned into a : He was a Black man. The mans died, why is his race constantly brought up by the black community especially? Is Jamie Foxx saying as white people, we shouldn't care, or shouldn't listen to his music?

Racism, eh? Has many, many evil heads.
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Stupid remark. Race had always been a part of the Jackson story, since before he broke the MTV colour barrier.
 
Ole_Gunnar said:
Yes, but then white people never suffered hundreds of years of slavery and ongoing racism at the hands of bourgeoisie black people.
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I know that. But racism exists in all forms and it will never end if people don't stop distinguishing between race/colour in this way. A white person would be called racist for doing it.
 
Livvie said:
I know that. But racism exists in all forms and it will never end if people don't stop distinguishing between race/colour in this way. A white person would be called racist for doing it.
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No they wouldn't, give an example, other than a few people in a forum being touchy and over PC like yourselves ...

Ole_Gunnar said:
...Jamie Foxx: " We want to celebrate this black man, he was black - he belonged to us"

No, he wanted nothing to do with black people. He did everything humanly possible to seperate himself from black people. Get it right. And your moon-walk was ridiculous.
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"We want to celebrate this black man - he belongs to us - and we shared him with everybody else."

Is that your bone of contention? In fact the opinion you hold of MJ shunning the black community may be precisely why JF made that comment. To say in essence, 'He was black, but he was loved by all races'... why would that get your back up? :confused:
 
esmufc09 said:
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A bad father indeed, the kids look mortified.
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They also don't look like his

It's fair to bring up race, he was an extremely influential black artist who did a lot to break down racial barriers in entertainment. A lot.

However, a lot of the black people malking noise about it are forgetting that the black community were outraged when he first got rid of his nose, and then eventually went white. But no talk of that now tho, or the white kids.
 
MockneyRevil said:
They also don't look like his

It's fair to bring up race, he was an extremely influential black artist who did a lot to break down racial barriers in entertainment. A lot.

However, a lot of the black people malking noise about it are forgetting that the black community were outraged when he first got rid of his nose, and then eventually went white. But no talk of that now tho, or the white kids.
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No talk of it? I forgot you had the ear of the black community Mockers, let me know what they are saying now then...

Ok, sarcasm aside, why do you think that? In my conversations I've found that peoples opinion of him has remained pretty much what it was before he died. So if you think 'they' have all changed their minds then you're clearly basing that off of the few black celebs you've seen in the media who have made tributes, and maybe you have a mate or something that changed his/her mind. Hardly conclusive...
 
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