On the other hand if someone abused your kid would you let him off a criminal conviction for money, which if he was found guilty you would receive anyway?
Music Michael Jackson is Dead (All general comment)
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The circus never goes away if you settle, it obviously leads people to assume you might be guilty. Especially with all the other stuff that came out
You wouldn't Paz. You'd fight to clear your name. Being accused of kiddy fiddling is just about as bad as it can get, if you're innocent you make sure the world knows about it
Jackson says Sony made him settle. Talk about not putting the guys best interests to the fore
Strange one this, when Joe Strummer died a few years ago it felt like a contemporary had passed, and I felt sorrow for his Wife losing a partner at such a relatiely young age. But with Jackson, it almost feels like a much younger man has died, not somebody of my age.
Anyway RIP.
Anyway RIP.
If I was wrongly accused of child abuse there is no way I would want to settle. Jackson had the money to take it all the way. And if I had it and I was innocent then I damn well would. Rather that than have any doubt whatsoever.
I would want my name so fecking cleared that Her Majesty the Queen herself would want to be photographed having a beer with me.
I would want my name so fecking cleared that Her Majesty the Queen herself would want to be photographed having a beer with me.
They might have seen it as accept the out-of-court settlement or risk no compensation at all. You'd like to think justice was their primary concern but these are poor people and probably thought a life-changing sum of money would go a long way towards getting their son's life back on track.
They must have been aware that there was a real possibility of him being found not guilty, just like he was in the first criminal case. The rich and powerful have been known to get away with murder (literally) in LA
What about if you were mentally unstable and everyone around you was telling you to settle....
Inevitable response from Gordon
Prime Minister Gordon Brown has paid tribute to Michael Jackson, saying that the singer's death was "very sad news" for his fans.
A Downing Street spokesman said: "This is very sad news for the millions of Michael Jackson fans in Britain and around the world.
"The prime minister's thoughts are with Michael Jackson's family at this time."
It's not known if Brown himself was a fan.
Prime Minister Gordon Brown has paid tribute to Michael Jackson, saying that the singer's death was "very sad news" for his fans.
A Downing Street spokesman said: "This is very sad news for the millions of Michael Jackson fans in Britain and around the world.
"The prime minister's thoughts are with Michael Jackson's family at this time."
It's not known if Brown himself was a fan.
I'm not disagreeing with you Pogue. I'm saying both sides are equally as possible, people tend to just focus on one though.
You would. I certainly would. Maybe Jackson wanted to. Maybe he was strongly advised against it.
Point is that innocent people have been sent to jail before. If you had the money would you buy yourself out of it or risk being wrongly sent down as a paedophile?
It's all speculation and I guess we'll never know the truth. If anything his death will just drag all this stuff back up tensfold and the leeches and parasites will be out trying to claim any chunk of his estate that they can get their hands on.
It's a sad tale. It really is. Either way you look at it.
well if it was a) pay some money and bury the hassle or b) spend loads of time, money and energy to clear your name
well, to be honest some people (especially like MJ) might chose b) IMHO
he was simply an innocent naive child in a man's body, he was cut from the social norms, and hence acted like 10 year old for most of his life (i.e. seeing no problem in sleeping with 'friends', building a funfair thing on his estate, etc), I honestly think he had the best intentions at heart...but then again I'm just basing it on interviews I've seen, documentaries, etc
and why would everyone be telling him to settle.
They all knew there would be ambiguity if he did.
Surely the leeches would have had more of a money-making prospect if he had gone on to clear his name completely.
The suspicion is that they knew he would not be able to clear his name because his case had too many holes in it.
Settlement was damage limitation for the leeches, not Jackson.
Jackson did wrong, how much wrong is questionable, but he did enough wrong to warrant substantial amounts of money being shelled out to short-circuit it.
Mental instability is an explanation not justification.
They all knew there would be ambiguity if he did.
Surely the leeches would have had more of a money-making prospect if he had gone on to clear his name completely.
The suspicion is that they knew he would not be able to clear his name because his case had too many holes in it.
Settlement was damage limitation for the leeches, not Jackson.
Jackson did wrong, how much wrong is questionable, but he did enough wrong to warrant substantial amounts of money being shelled out to short-circuit it.
Mental instability is an explanation not justification.
It normally takes a week, or more for the jokes to pour out. But poor old MJ is getting the stick just 14 hours after his death.
Still, what a legend, idiot to himself at times though.
Still, what a legend, idiot to himself at times though.
I believe in the 'experimental bio-weapon'.
Sounds viable.
Sounds viable.
I can't believe they even print that!Definitely. None of us know exactly what happened and one side of the debate is wrong (although we might never find out which side)
My main beef has been the outrage at anyone who dares to ask questions about whether we should be unanimous in our grief for someone with such a cloud of suspicion hanging over him, as though the only opinion allowed was an assumption of complete innocence and an expression condolences. If it was, for example, Stevie Wonder who died then I would agree completely but Michael Jackson has a chequered history, to put it mildly.
I don't have any problem with people who've made their own mind up that he is blameless and who are feeling bereaved this morning and I haven't attacked anyone for expressing these opinions. A few of us earlier on in the thread admitted to not being bothered because, in our opinion, we thought he probably had sexually abused kids (or words to that effect) and got some stick as a result. Hence this ongoing debate.
This would of been my post if i wasn't in a provocative mood last night...
Well put. (Better than i would of to be fair
)Imagine if he hadn't done the Bashir interview, and all the stuff that came out then came out now instead?
At least Jackson had his day in court and was found innocent, and his fans had some time to digest everything before now
At least Jackson had his day in court and was found innocent, and his fans had some time to digest everything before now
Possibly because they were worried he might be found guilty?
I've heard prison isn't too nice for Paedophiles.
Opinions are fine but putting them as fact when you don't the facts is merely adding to the shite that's already filling forums and newspapers as we speak.
heaven alone knows what his father did to him - these are the formative years after all
This is true. Although the circumstances are complicated the rationale is simple.
Leeches Rationale
1. We want money from Jacko.
2. He has been accused of child abuse and if he loses we will get no money.
3. Can he win outright and thereby exonerate himself and emerge as a persecuted hero which we can capitalise on by re-launching his career with a series of big tours?
4. Yes - Lets do it!!
5. No - Shit does that mean he loses and goes to jail thereby robbing us of our opportunity to get rich?
6. Not necessarily.
7. We can settle and there will be some dirt but then we can lay low for a bit, polish him up and re-launch in a couple of years. There will be some sceptics that won't buy tickets but we reckon that if we handle it right we should still make a packet.
8. Do the deal
9. Jacko's dead - bollocks!
The thing is, if you genuinly believe that Jacko was guilty then I suppose you will be as vocal as some posters in here, it's only normal. Don't discount the element of doubt though.
He was found not-guilty, speaking as a parent I would not be having that... if my child had been molested and the perpetrator got off in court then I would use any means at my disposal to get justice for as long as I live on this earth. No amount of millions would stop me or shut me up, sorry.
He was found not-guilty, speaking as a parent I would not be having that... if my child had been molested and the perpetrator got off in court then I would use any means at my disposal to get justice for as long as I live on this earth. No amount of millions would stop me or shut me up, sorry.
I just saw an excerpt of the Bashir interview on CNN... Although it was just a clip it was still obvious that Bashir had an agenda and seemed desperate to get Jackson to say and admit to things. I'm not sure I'd vouch for the quality of journalism that went on in that interview...
Well there's a first.
I'd take issue with your words 'firmly held opinion' form above.
It's quite obvious that you cribbed most of the evidence for this 'firmly held opinion' from Wikipedia this morning - even down to the LaToya quote.
I'd suggest it's more likely, as you've hinted at yourself here in this thread today, that you just enjoy posting provocatively to enjoy the reactions you get from people.
What were you doing when you were 5?....
People are different. It is so easy to say what other people SHOULD do - but we're different. To know your innocent is enough for some people.
Also the stress must have been enormous. Just imagine walking down the road. How paranoid would you be? now put yourself in his shoes with 9/10 people knowing who he is, what he's been accused of etc
Also because we're different you have to realise not everyones a fighter. The hangers on will rarely have given him the right advice as nearly all have their own self interests
People should just let it be. After all, we live in a society where opinions nearly always truth and innocent until proven guilty? yeah right...
So to end, the people saying it's clear he's guilty because I would never have let this crap hang over me...people deal with things differnet and therefore because we don't handle things the same - it's really not that convincing a point is it?
Goodbye Michael, another of my childhood heroes dead. I wanted to be just like him and always bought his albums when they came out. Died too early, but not unsurprisingly with the amount of poisons he's exposed himself to.
Mud sticks and Child Abuse is the Super-glue of sticky mud.
Most people, if innocent, would move heaven and earth to clear their name on that one.
That includes the hanger's-on.
Its the win-win in game theory
What we have here is a lose-win
Lose because it was settled and therefore ripe for speculation.
Win because it could be manageable (and profitable) in time.
The option was taken because they could not win the case.
Why, because there was compelling evidence that he did something wrong.
Most people, if innocent, would move heaven and earth to clear their name on that one.
That includes the hanger's-on.
Its the win-win in game theory
What we have here is a lose-win
Lose because it was settled and therefore ripe for speculation.
Win because it could be manageable (and profitable) in time.
The option was taken because they could not win the case.
Why, because there was compelling evidence that he did something wrong.
Well no, and I believe there was a rebuttal video released by Jackson that showed Bashir fawning to him
But that's where all the fresh court preceeding stuff started, and where more knowledge about Neverland and Jackson's relationships with kids came out
At least now fans have had their chance to come to terms with that, either believe him or not. Would have been worse to come out now if you ask me. And obviously he wouldn't have been to court and found innocent. The legal system would have to have let us down if Jackson was as claimed
I find the reaction from different generations to be interesting. My 16 year old sister doesn't give two fecks, seems they don't appreciate his music because they didn't grow up with it like I did.
I have to say, if I'm honest, that is death has not affected me in the slightest.
I grew up on some of his music, and it is clear to everyone that he was very talented, but at the age where his music stopped having such an influence on me, was around the times where the 'other' stories came around, and that definitely tainted the memories I had of him.
I can see why people are upset, or taken back by the news, because he was probably the most well known world-wide icon most of us have ever seen. But, I don't see how that exactly excuses his deeper issues, and whether we know the truth or not about the kids etc, he was obviously a very strange man.
He lost a lot of glamour, became not so nice to look at, and for those saying he was victimised purely because of his fame, I'm sorry, but once you reach a certain point in famedom, you don't suddenly start molesting kids. There had to be a grain of truth in it, but it's definitely not the thing we first have to focus on now that he is dead. That said, he did help a lot of people with his music, and even if some of his other actions were more debatable than others, at least we have reached the point where we can now focus on perhaps his 'better' side.
My thoughts about it, and if the post offended anyone, bear it mind I just wanted to express my opinion, and I wasn't targetting anyone or talking about anyone in particular.
I grew up on some of his music, and it is clear to everyone that he was very talented, but at the age where his music stopped having such an influence on me, was around the times where the 'other' stories came around, and that definitely tainted the memories I had of him.
I can see why people are upset, or taken back by the news, because he was probably the most well known world-wide icon most of us have ever seen. But, I don't see how that exactly excuses his deeper issues, and whether we know the truth or not about the kids etc, he was obviously a very strange man.
He lost a lot of glamour, became not so nice to look at, and for those saying he was victimised purely because of his fame, I'm sorry, but once you reach a certain point in famedom, you don't suddenly start molesting kids. There had to be a grain of truth in it, but it's definitely not the thing we first have to focus on now that he is dead. That said, he did help a lot of people with his music, and even if some of his other actions were more debatable than others, at least we have reached the point where we can now focus on perhaps his 'better' side.
My thoughts about it, and if the post offended anyone, bear it mind I just wanted to express my opinion, and I wasn't targetting anyone or talking about anyone in particular.
I always thought he was guilty.
Now I'm being more rational. He was found innocent so who are we to dispute that? But people are always willing to believe the worst of anyone.
Jacko dead? Wow, there's nothing on the news!
I don't think all the ones that sad he did stuff are all for real but there are some that make you stop and think.
Yes Sony might of wanted him to settle out of court but was that for there benefit or his.
Just for a minute put yourself in Songs place ,your biggest star is looking a doing a lot of time for child abusen they would of lost millions and never able to work again.you can see there point.
But think of yourself in Jacko place would you not want to clear your name even if it meant you lost everything you had worked for,I know I would of wanted to, now think about the family that accused him why take money of somebody that abused your child,yes I can see the point of not wanting to put the child thought court but by taking money don't you risk being call gold diggers and only saying it for the money.
If it was me i would do anything on gods earth to get him found guilty.
We shall never know what really happened.
Personally I think he was guilty has charged and if it was one of us we would of been jailed for a long time.
Yes Sony might of wanted him to settle out of court but was that for there benefit or his.
Just for a minute put yourself in Songs place ,your biggest star is looking a doing a lot of time for child abusen they would of lost millions and never able to work again.you can see there point.
But think of yourself in Jacko place would you not want to clear your name even if it meant you lost everything you had worked for,I know I would of wanted to, now think about the family that accused him why take money of somebody that abused your child,yes I can see the point of not wanting to put the child thought court but by taking money don't you risk being call gold diggers and only saying it for the money.
If it was me i would do anything on gods earth to get him found guilty.
We shall never know what really happened.
Personally I think he was guilty has charged and if it was one of us we would of been jailed for a long time.
Again mate, you're basing all that on absolutely nothing..
I'm not saying he did or didnt. The fact is he was never found guilty of anything and there are many different ways it can be viewed.
You're an odd one.
Does it matter how anyone comes up with the facts they use in a discussion? As it happened, mine were cobbled together from my own memory and a newspaper I read coming into work today. If I'd gone to the effort of checking them on wikipedia (I didn't) would that make my opinion any less valid? The opposite if anything.
As for posting provocatively, to enjoy the reactions, I do like a good debate. which is why I spend so much time on this place (a fact that, for some strange reason, winds you up no end) and do sometimes act as devil's advocate in discussions. Have you got a problem with that? Message-boards like this were all about discussion and acting as devil's advocate is a good way to stimulate discussion. If that irritates you, don't log on.
As for this thread, my feelings and opinions about Jackson are genuine. I have had long discussions with two different paedophiles and their justifications for their actions were so eerily similar to the explanations offered by Jackson that I assumed the worst about him, ever since I first read the details of the court case and watched his interview with Bashir. Paedophiles don't discuss kids as sex objects they talk about how they find it easier to relate to children that adults, they claim that only kids really understand them, that they love all children and the only reason for spending time with them is because they enjoy their company. Unfortunately, their inability to have a healthy sexual relationship with people their own age often ends up drives them towards taking their relationship with children to the next level (although some can make do with online pornography - the lesser of two evils but evil nonetheless). This can be as horrifying to the individual, at first, as it is to anyone else hearing about it but it's not an urge that is easily denied and they justify their behaviour by convincing themselves that their actions are borne out of love and a desire to make children happy.
Maybe you've bought into the tabloid-fuelled myth of predatory paedophiles jumping out from behind bushed and whisking children away to their evil lairs but the reality is that they are usually someone who is loved and trusted by the children and parents alike, right up until the point they climb into the bed together (in the case of the children, this love and trust can, tragically, continue for a while thereafter) Obviously, I can't state as an objective fact that Michael Jackson is a paedophile but I happen to think he is and that's the basis for all my comments in this thread. This is obviously no more or less valid than the many hundreds of people in this thread who seem to accepting as a fact that he isn't but it's my own opinion and I'm entitled to express it.
Dunno why I'm bothering going through this with you, its' not like it's gonna stop you wading into some future thread I'm taking part in and start attacking me, rather than my opinions. Acting like a cnut seems to come very naturally to you. Oh well, at least I got my point across.
I'm happy for him.
feck off
Yup, which is why when people claim he was a peado and such to me I cite along the lines of what you just said there Pogue...
You wonder huh, is this maybe what he wanted?