Mesut Özil

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Heh, I'm very aware you talked about him too Ekeke, not many of the more promising players in Europe get past you!

But you know as well as I do he wasn't talked about much before this WC, so the fact that this thread's got 95 pages based on just one tournament is crazy. I don't know how people keep posting in here - there's no new debate to be had, it's surely been done 100 times over, so it's just United fans hanging on every snippet of news that relates to a player that deep down we all believe we won't get...that'd depress me and frustrate me in a big way. Fair play to people who persevere through it all, I'm not criticising, it's just very strange!

Assuming Hargreaves was the big talking point in transfers after the WC, and the fact it took over a year to get him while publically voicing our interest, how long was his thread?
 
Brwned said:
Well I've not been in the thread for the last 80-odd pages so I'm as out of the loop as you I reckon!

What did Sir Alex do/say yesterday that I missed?
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Basically in a nutshell, Fergie refused to confirm or deny that United were interested in him other saying that he's a very good player and a lot of clubs were interested. Then today, it had looked like United were readying a bid according to the morning papers but then it emerged on twitter and the likes that a deal had been done with Barca. This was denied a couple of hours later by more reports, which claim Guardiola cancelled the deal which had been done by the club without his consent.

More or less 50 pages of it summarized there, although most of them were people counting down to the hundredth.
 
Ekeke said:
And that strikers are generally not judged as much on those things. Not if they arent also putting the ball in the back of the net very often.
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That depends on how you play them. I consider a striker who creates goal as valuable as a one who scores (Dimitar even talked about this in his latest interview). Now if you pair an on-form Berbatov with Rooney or Chicharito, guess what would happen.
 
I'm pretty sure I've got several pro Ozil posts pre World Cup, first saw him in the U21's last summer then in some Werder games last year along with a couple of German WC qualifiers. I've thought since then he was a better option than Silva or Gourcuff to add that creative central spark, alas now Barca are back sniffing this will be over soon.
 
The Physio said:
Basically in a nutshell, Fergie refused to confirm or deny that United were interested in him other saying that he's a very good player and a lot of clubs were interested. Then today, it had looked like United were readying a bid according to the morning papers but then it emerged on twitter and the likes that a deal had been done with Barca. This was denied a couple of hours later by more reports, which claim Guardiola cancelled the deal which had been done by the club without his consent.

More or less 50 pages of it summarized there, although most of them were people counting down to the hundredth.
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So basically nothing's happened, besides a load of hot air and Sir Alex typically toying with the media/fans?

Fair enough I suppose.
 
Brwned said:
Heh, I'm very aware you talked about him too Ekeke, not many of the more promising players in Europe get past you!

But you know as well as I do he wasn't talked about much before this WC, so the fact that this thread's got 95 pages based on just one tournament is crazy. I don't know how people keep posting in here - there's no new debate to be had, it's surely been done 100 times over, so it's just United fans hanging on every snippet of news that relates to a player that deep down we all believe we won't get...that'd depress me and frustrate me in a big way. Fair play to people who persevere through it all, I'm not criticising, it's just very strange!

Assuming Hargreaves was the big talking point in transfers after the WC, and the fact it took over a year to get him while publically voicing our interest, how long was his thread?
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Yep you're exactly right. And that was one of my big points about him being a better option than Silva at the time, because the hype hadnt caught up with him (and gone way beyond him like with Silva) and he would therefore have been a bargain at the time.

I didnt know about his contract situation though I have to admit... Damn can you imagine what kind of fee you could have got him for at around the time we signed Hernandez? With one year left on his deal and no worldcup yet, now that would have been saving money by signing a player before they played their world cup. Not that the Hernandez deal hasnt impressed me because I think we did a great job there. But if we'd done the same with Ozil it would have been a ridiculous coup.

The Hargreaves thread was pretty long if I recall and yeah lots of people who, along with other England fans months before, had reacted badly to him being announced in the squad - well after a couple of good showings at the world cup they were on board with us spending £18 million on him. I think its a confidence boosting thing for a lot of people for us to go out and spend a chunk of money on a player who looked good at a tournament. I guess not everyone trusts in our youth development as much as the manager.
 
The tension of the Ozil saga t'other day drove me into a stupor, and when I awoke, I found that I'd created this:



Ozilstraws must be clutched.
 
Brwned said:
So basically nothing's happened, besides a load of hot air and Sir Alex typically toying with the media/fans?

Fair enough I suppose.
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Its an odd thread, there are some of us who want him at united due to his skill set and maturity and others who just want a big signing. everyone hanging onto every false media report and airport sightings is amusing but makes it worth while to watch :D

lets say we did sign him brwned, how do you see him fitting in? I see him as the left winger, ala current giggs who cuts in towards the middle and can play in the strikers and continue to link play with the midfield. He has enough guile to ghost into the box and is alway available, can dribble along the touch line enough to be a threat wide and with him looking to pass rather than shoot makes hims an excellent "assists" player.

He would be a drop off in work rate and defensive cover, something we ask of both our wingers. He may be more willing to work with some encouragement from Sir Alex but it wouldnt be up to the level of park and valencia.
 
Werewolf said:
That depends on how you play them. I consider a striker who creates goal as valuable as a one who scores (Dimitar even talked about this in his latest interview). Now if you pair an on-form Berbatov with Rooney or Chicharito, guess what would happen.
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For one, you have less options up front with such a player. As we saw last season with Rooney's injury, Berbatov wasnt the man to be played up front on his own.

And two, you can fill the rest of your team with creative players but you can only get away with so many specialist goalscorers. And obviously the best place to have one is as close to the opponent's goal as possible so that any balls you put into the box can be attacked by your most potent goal threat.

So I dont agree that assists from a striker are just as good as goals from a striker. From a winger or attacking midfielder they are interchangable, but for a striker their goals are more important.
 
Ekeke said:
For one, you have less options up front with such a player. As we saw last season with Rooney's injury, Berbatov wasnt the man to be played up front on his own.

And two, you can fill the rest of your team with creative players but you can only get away with so many specialist goalscorers. And obviously the best place to have one is as close to the opponent's goal as possible so that any balls you put into the box can be attacked by your most potent goal threat.

So I dont agree that assists from a striker are just as good as goals from a striker. From a winger or attacking midfielder they are interchangable, but for a striker their goals are more important.
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1) You don't have less options, you just have the luxury to afford having creativity upfront. As we have seen, Berbatov does not do well on his own upfront and he should be partnered with someone like Owen or Chicharito to get the best out of him. So when someone like Rooney gets injured, you would expect Owen or Chicharito to take his place as lethal goalscorers.

2) Hohoho, just see how many complaints we get from the fans that we lack creativity. Unless you have got a team like Barcelona, you won't be able to fill your team with creative players. Having a creative striker not only offers you this, but as you said also makes attacks more dangerous and brings that extra push of creativity just before the other striker does his job. Remember, we are talking here about a parternship.

Moreover, an in-form Berbatov would certainly score more goals as his confidence would rise and he would convert many more occasions.
Again, players of the caliber and talent of Berbatov are hard to find. The world is full with strikers who only know to shoot or run headlessly but you will struggle to find players who think out of the box like Berbatov.
 
Werewolf said:
1) You don't have less options, you just have the luxury to afford having creativity upfront. As we have seen, Berbatov does not do well on his own upfront and he should be partnered with someone like Owen or Chicharito to get the best out of him. So when someone like Rooney gets injured, you would expect Owen or Chicharito to take his place as lethal goalscorers.
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Yes you do. Options with a normal striker are play him in a pair or play him alone up front. Options with Berbatov = play him in a pair...

2) Hohoho, just see how many complaints we get from the fans that we lack creativity. Unless you have got a team like Barcelona, you won't be able to fill your team with creative players. Having a creative striker not only offers you this, but as you said also makes attacks more dangerous and brings that extra push of creativity just before the other striker does his job. Remember, we are talking here about a parternship.

Moreover, an in-form Berbatov would certainly score more goals as his confidence would rise and he would convert many more occasions.
Again, players of the caliber and talent of Berbatov are hard to find. The world is full with strikers who only know to shoot or run headlessly but you will struggle to find players who think out of the box like Berbatov.
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Or stay out of the box.
 
Well according to a Barca ITK on Twitter, Pep rejected the transfer despite everything being agreed, he wants to give the youth a chance.

If this has already been posted in the last 7 pages or so I missed while I was sleeping then I apologize!
 
Ekeke said:
Yes you do. Options with a normal striker are play him in a pair or play him alone up front. Options with Berbatov = play him in a pair...



Or stay out of the box.
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Yeah, with a normal striker. Now, why just don't we use Berbatov's strength and get from him much more than we would with that normal striker when paired ? Football is not about calculating options but rather finding the best match. When you have a player of the talent of Berbatov, you don't kick him out saying you don't offer many options, but you rather try and get the best our of his strengths.

But I understand your point in the sense where I would expect from an unconventional player like Berbatov to generate such reactions and I think he is aware of that too. If he was a bit more consistent, I think that his style would be more easily accepted by the fans but well, I still hold onto my opinion that when in-form, you won't find many strikers of his quality.
 
Werewolf said:
Yeah, with a normal striker. Now, why just don't we use Berbatov's strength and get from him much more than we would with that normal striker when paired ? Football is not about calculating options but rather finding the best match. When you have a player of the talent of Berbatov, you don't kick him out saying you don't offer many options, but you rather try and get the best our of his strengths.

But I understand your point in the sense where I would expect from an unconventional player like Berbatov to generate such reactions and I think he is aware of that too. If he was a bit more consistent, I think that his style would be more easily accepted by the fans but well, I still hold onto my opinion that when in-form, you won't find many strikers of his quality.
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Even on form (Spurs form) there are still a bunch of strikers better than him. There are of course benefits to having a creative striker like Berbatov too. I'm just saying, when you break it down the best place to have your goalscorer is up front and the best place to have your creative players is behind him, providing for him. The goals from a striker are the bread and butter and if you can provide lots of assists on top of that, brilliant. But if you arent doing all that great with the goalscoring then you have a problem.

Sean_RedDevil said:
Smart decision from Guardiola.

Villa, Messi, Ibrahimovic, Iniesta, Pedro, Bojan, Mata + Ozil for 4 positions would be crazy.
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They havent signed Mata and probably arent going to.
 
Ekeke said:
Even on form (Spurs form) there are still a bunch of strikers better than him. There are of course benefits to having a creative striker like Berbatov too. I'm just saying, when you break it down the best place to have your goalscorer is up front and the best place to have your creative players is behind him, providing for him. The goals from a striker are the bread and butter and if you can provide lots of assists on top of that, brilliant. But if you arent doing all that great with the goalscoring then you have a problem.
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I don't think Berbatov has ever shown his best form in England (I didn't watch him closely before that), but you just feel from his moments of magic that he has enormous talent which is there with the best.
I agree with you that your goalscorers should be in front, but I still see Berbatov's creativity when coupled with a deadly striker in front of him as a priceless advantage. I hope that this will be more obvious with Chicharito (I thought we saw some glimpses of what I am talking about last Sunday).
 
bbest said:
The telegragh says it's a done deal.
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nothing new that was posted as far as I could see, as wr8_united mentioned someone close to barca tweeted pep had the deal up to him and he turned it down in favour of barcelona youth.

with all the false reports and what not I'm just going with whatever becomes official. Ozil would be a great signing for any team, value aswell.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Interesting. Strange signing that for Barca.
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chief I'll pose you the same question I did brwned:

lets say we did sign him, how do you see him fitting in? I see him as the left winger, ala current giggs who cuts in towards the middle and can play in the strikers and continue to link play with the midfield. He has enough guile to ghost into the box and is alway available, can dribble along the touch line enough to be a threat wide and with him looking to pass rather than shoot makes hims an excellent "assists" player.

He would be a drop off in work rate and defensive cover, something we ask of both our wingers. He may be more willing to work with some encouragement from Sir Alex but it wouldnt be up to the level of park and valencia.
 
MST3K said:
chief I'll pose you the same question I did brwned:

lets say we did sign him, how do you see him fitting in? I see him as the left winger, ala current giggs who cuts in towards the middle and can play in the strikers and continue to link play with the midfield. He has enough guile to ghost into the box and is alway available, can dribble along the touch line enough to be a threat wide and with him looking to pass rather than shoot makes hims an excellent "assists" player.

He would be a drop off in work rate and defensive cover, something we ask of both our wingers. He may be more willing to work with some encouragement from Sir Alex but it wouldnt be up to the level of park and valencia.
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He would play the same role Giggs has been doing for us for the last few seasons, that is as a wide play maker capable of playing in the hole. The only difference is he wouldn't be as good defensively, but playing with Evra on that flank would negate the effect of that.

Right now if we don't go for him Cleverly is set to be that type of player for us.
 
Manchester United look set to lose out to Barcelona in the race to sign the Germany playmaker Mesut Ozil after the Spanish champions agreed a fee, believed to be in the region of £8m, with Werder Bremen.

Barcelona were last night awaiting the permission of Pep Guardiola, the club's manager, to conclude a deal for the 21-year-old World Cup star.

Though Alex Ferguson had not explicitly expressed his interest in Ozil, he watched him in action in a friendly against Fulham at Craven Cottage on Saturday. Ozil, though, has insisted his heart has always been set on a move to Catalunya. "I have been a Barcelona fan since I was small, and it is my dream to play for them," he said. "One day, I will complete this dream."

Read more: Manchester United target Mesut Ozil set to sign for Barcelona - Premier League, Football - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk



The fat lady as finally sung
 
Drifter said:
Manchester United look set to lose out to Barcelona in the race to sign the Germany playmaker Mesut Ozil after the Spanish champions agreed a fee, believed to be in the region of £8m, with Werder Bremen.

Barcelona were last night awaiting the permission of Pep Guardiola, the club's manager, to conclude a deal for the 21-year-old World Cup star.

Though Alex Ferguson had not explicitly expressed his interest in Ozil, he watched him in action in a friendly against Fulham at Craven Cottage on Saturday. Ozil, though, has insisted his heart has always been set on a move to Catalunya. "I have been a Barcelona fan since I was small, and it is my dream to play for them," he said. "One day, I will complete this dream."

Read more: Manchester United target Mesut Ozil set to sign for Barcelona - Premier League, Football - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk



The fat lady as finally sung
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Yeah, if it's in the Belfast telegraph it must be true.:lol: that's basically the telegraph story word for word.
 
How can a deal be agreed if Barcelona's coach Pep Guardiola hasn't even given green light for the transfer?

Seems a tad odd.
 
Jaap said:
How can a deal be agreed if Barcelona's coach Pep Guardiola hasn't even given green light for the transfer?

Seems a tad odd.
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Because it hasn't been done and is just as everyting has been since the world cup, pure speculation.
 
Jaap said:
Let's hope so, gambit28. ;)
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Again why? I don't see what he'd bring to the squad that we don't have already. He's not a Scholesy type of player. As the Chief said he'd end up occupying the same role as Giggs currently does.
 
gambit28 said:
Again why? I don't see what he'd bring to the squad that we don't have already. He's not a Scholesy type of player. As the Chief said he'd end up occupying the same role as Giggs currently does.
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A skilful, gifted young player, who can replace the ageing Scholes & Giggs?! Apart from those two, we haven't (currently) got anyone in the squad, who can produce those magic passes and has Özil's sort of creativity.
 
gambit28 said:
Again why? I don't see what he'd bring to the squad that we don't have already. He's not a Scholesy type of player. As the Chief said he'd end up occupying the same role as Giggs currently does.
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Then you clearly haven't seen him play for Bremen..

He's very very creative, offers something a lot more direct than we already have in any of our attacking midfielders bar maybe Nani, and he definitely has many many more goals than Giggs and Scholes combined in a season!

fantastic left foot and a lot of creativity...
 
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