Don't you think using a combination of close control, agility and speed to overcome opponents from a variety of different angles requires a great deal of practise, skill and mind-to-ball co-ordination? To have completely mastered the football is Messi's feat here, he can do anything he wants with a football as he has absolute control over it (something very, very few players in football history have had). The way he set up Iniesta's goal the other night was testament to this.
Messi vs Ronaldo|2011-2012
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Don't you think using a combination of close control, agility and speed to overcome opponents from a variety of different angles requires a great deal of practise, skill and mind-to-ball co-ordination? To have completely mastered the football is Messi's feat here, he can do anything he wants with a football as he has absolute control over it (something very, very few players in football history have had). The way he set up Iniesta's goal the other night was testament to this.
Arrrgh... Keep getting sucked into this cluster-feck of a thread.
Anyway, the above is particularly retarded logic so I can't ignore it.
Being able to dribble past a man takes him out of the game and creates a temporary numerical advantage for his team. On that basis alone it's a huge benefit for an attacking player to be able to beat his man.
Regarding goals, dribbling past players also gives Messi time and space in dangerous areas to pick a pass and release one of his team-mates. This means his team scores a goal, even if he doesn't. A great example being Iniesta's goal the other day.
Now, Cal, why don't you remind everyone of the amount of assists Messi and Ronaldo had in the league last season?
That's essentially the main point. What is initially a 5 vs 3 quickly becomes a 3 vs 3 after a shake of the hips and a dart inside the other man.
122 posts already, really? These are the gayest threads in the caf.
That's without the aesthetic appeal of watching players dribble past their opponents - which is what we love about football, not the 2 yard tap ins.
This Messi vs Ronaldo debate is quickly becoming a useful barometer for footballing intelligence (or even human intelligence). Those who still think that there's even an argument can be conveniently ignored.
The thing about Messi, and which distinguishes most great players, is his ability to consistently dribble through the middle.
We can talk about dribbling being less useful if it takes you down blind alleys but through the middle is almost always a strong advantage because it opens up the pitch on all sides and puts you closer to goal, which isn't always the case on the wing. That is what made Romario such an amazing player, Ronaldo, Zidane, Laudrup, Ronaldinho and Iniesta now. They were all capable of going plast players through the middle of the pitch where it is most crowded on a regular basis and had the ability to do release the ball well when they were there. A strong part of what made them great players. Messi does this with greater regularity and ease than any of them.
Ronaldo obviously has a football brain. You don't become that prolific if you don't know how to time your runs, where to position yourself and so forth.
He has none of the vision, creativity and inspiration of Messi though.
He has none of the vision, creativity and inspiration of Messi though.
Well, he has some; perhaps just not as much as Messi.
Ronaldo is an incredible player. But comparing him to Messi right now will force many to exaggerate and make him sound rubbish, when he obviously isn't.
Exactly, his logic is so retarded. I was hoping it would be as such so i could reply but you've done it for me.
Shooting from 30 yards and scoring 1/10 is so different from a dribble. If he dribbles and scores 1/10 times he probably keeps possession 6 or 7/10 and creates a chance 2 or 3 out of 10. Where as if you shoot, you either score but i'd say as much as 7 or 8 times out of 10 you miss the target, possession lost.
None? Well that's nonsense, but do carry on
jeez, talk about getting corned by the literalness police.
Can the grammar police please affirm that this sentence construction does not actually imply that Ronaldo has no vision, creativity and inspiration? plech?
Can the grammar police please affirm that this sentence construction does not actually imply that Ronaldo has no vision, creativity and inspiration? plech?
I am a pedantic cnut tbf
But seriously, you'd use a player like Henderson in that sentence, not the second best player in the world.
Of course he has a footballing brain. His positional sense and the way he makes runs, his movement is excellent. It;s his mental side that lets him down a bit for me, that winner takes all attitude where he opts to shoot at times where he really shouldnt or the petulance he shows when tackled or things arent going his or his teams way. That's his main weaknesses.
He'll never have the creativity of a Messi or someone similar but he does the right things most of the time to be fair to Ronaldo.
He'll never have the creativity of a Messi or someone similar but he does the right things most of the time to be fair to Ronaldo.
Sure but you're forgetting that good general play helps the team do better as well and score goals, which as you put it is the main aim. If Scholes puts in 40 through balls from which 40 goals are scored but scores none himself surely that's better than Darron Gibson scoring 5 and doing feck all else?
The point is your whole 'end product (goals) is what matters' theory would make sense if Messi actually scored less than Ronaldo. But he scores almost every single game. They both do. So in a sense, the deadlock is broken by what they do apart from score goals and the significance of what they do as a whole.
In a few matches last season he showed a higher footballing intelligence than his average, playing some lovely passes and showing excellent vision.It's just not a consistent aspect of his game, he feels like he has to be the main man all the time.
Maybe I'm wrong but I see Messi playing a more natural and relaxed game, he doesn't stress himself to be the best all the time, he's so naturally talented that it translates itself into great performances
Please, it is disrespectful to even compare Messi to any other current footballer at this point. He is on another planet.
Cal's mind can not compute multiple roles for the same player. Scholes gets point for being a good passer because that is what he is supposed to do. Ronaldo gets points for scoring goals because that is his job. Possible, he may have gotten points for dribbling back when he was a conventional winger as that was his job.
Cal sees Messi as a goalscorer and therefore he gets no bonus points for passing or dribbling.
I shit you not.
It's weird and biased to only limit Messi at that despite being one of the 2 most ruthless finishers in the world.
Cal has the strangest sense of what football is. He has no appreciation for the actual game. He's that kid at school who can tell you every player in every team in the league and a whole bunch of other pointless shit but you can't actually talk to about the game. He probably doesnt even get excited by good play, when a goal is scored he might grin ever so slightly as he stores the "goal" information into the only part of his brain that works.
Winning and goals are all that matters... it's a sad way to look at football in my own opinion. I love watching games, of course ideally the result is to win but it's the ups and downs, the good play, the bad play. It all has an effect on a football fan.
Cal is a football robot. He's not a real person. He has no emotion.
Winning and goals are all that matters... it's a sad way to look at football in my own opinion. I love watching games, of course ideally the result is to win but it's the ups and downs, the good play, the bad play. It all has an effect on a football fan.
Cal is a football robot. He's not a real person. He has no emotion.
You make it sound like football should be graded by judges on how aesthetically appealing a team plays.
He's real, he has no sense of fairplay or sportsmanship, he's a total wanker who bet on Barca to beat Man Utd cos 'the odds were good'.
Yep. Still wants Maureen to be United's next manager.
Didn't know about that bet though. That's low.
People bet against their own team all the time so they can't 'lose'. Happy if you win, some recompense if you lose. Don't see how Cal? is unique in that regard.
I think he is a case of being ruined by betting on the wrong horses.
He decided to dislike Messi and Henry because he really likes Ronaldo and Nistelroy.
Rather than gradually revise his opinion of these players over time, as sane people would when it became apparent to all that his favourites were not the better footballers, he gradually revised his footballing philosophy to fit his opinion of the players, until the point where he could no longer defend either position without looking like a total tool. And even then, he will still chime in with any argument he can think of to make Messi and Henry look lesser than they are.
The end result is the plane crash of joyless and flawed footballing metrics we're seeing now.
He decided to dislike Messi and Henry because he really likes Ronaldo and Nistelroy.
Rather than gradually revise his opinion of these players over time, as sane people would when it became apparent to all that his favourites were not the better footballers, he gradually revised his footballing philosophy to fit his opinion of the players, until the point where he could no longer defend either position without looking like a total tool. And even then, he will still chime in with any argument he can think of to make Messi and Henry look lesser than they are.
The end result is the plane crash of joyless and flawed footballing metrics we're seeing now.
In a Champions League Final? That's a little mental.
If the egomaniac Ronaldo can admit it it's pretty mental that other people can't.
^ Cue Cal? to come in and claim but SAF doesn't agree! 
Seeing the argentine do it live infront of your face over and over again is always going to humble you.
To be fair, I believe Roanldo said it in 2010 but reiterated that Messi has an amazing team.
To be fair, I believe Roanldo said it in 2010 but reiterated that Messi has an amazing team.
Hmm I remember predicfing all that was said in the first page and getting pilloried and laughed at. The overall standard of La Liga is what fecked him up. Eventually, it'll happen to Messi and Barca aswell, because the standard over there really is shocking now...
If we're going to ignore his 69 goals in 64 games in the league because of its apparently 'crap' standard, surely we can't ignore the 13 in 18 goals he has scored in the Champions league?
Ronaldo isn't fecked up, he's one of the very best players in the world, would still rip this league apart if he were to come back now and would put in a great performance against Arsenal, City, you or Chelsea if you met in the Champions league.
Ronaldo isn't fecked up, he's one of the very best players in the world, would still rip this league apart if he were to come back now and would put in a great performance against Arsenal, City, you or Chelsea if you met in the Champions league.
I could picture Ronaldo saying that through gritted teeth. It makes a rather amusing mental image
Saying that, he's pretty much spot on. They're the two best players in the world playing for the two biggest clubs in their country. In every other aspect, they're completely different.
So it's a case of damned if he does and damned if he doesn't?
He tries to play nice and it's because Messi truly is better?
Anyway, considering Messi has had better seasons for 2 years (which I've admitted many times), it's hardly surprising that he's "for now" the better player.
You must mean for three years (08-09 the treble year, 09-10 equaling Fat Ronaldo's 42 goal record for Barca and last season).
Messi has proved it for a decent time that he's a better player than Ronaldo."For now" or not
I wouldn't hold Messi beating fat Ronaldo's record in any regard given the current state of La Liga. What Ron did was simply amazing at the time because the the league was actually competitive.
I definitely agree with you that but the 42 goals isn't just based on league goals.There is also the CL (in which Messi regularly excels)
topscorer in the tournament for three years running now. Only Muller has bettered that.
Just to add a bit. He is currently no 10 on the alltime CL topscorer chart with 38 goals, of those above him only Nistelroy, Di Stefano and Eusebio better his goals to game ratio of 0.68. Although to be fair just below him are are Puskas with a goals to game ratio of 0.88 and Muller with a goals to game ratio of 1(!).
What is most strking is his record in the knockout phase. He has scored 18 goals in that stage of the competition, the same as the alltime goalscorer Raul. In fact, his record in that regard is ridiculous. He has 18 in the knockout stages and 20 in the group stages. Raul has 18 and 53 respectively. The next best in the knockout stages are Shevchenko with 17/29 and inzaghi with 16/30. All with worse goals to game ratios as well.
In the modern era, the only one with a better goals to game ratio is nistelroy. His record in knockout vs group stages is 6/50.
Messi delivers in the big games more than anyone.
And just to be fair: the only one with a comparable delivery in the knockout stages compared to group games is in fact: Christiano Ronaldo!
13/14 for him. He is way down in 24th position on the alltime chart though and has a somewhat less impressive goals to game ratio as well at 0.40.
But I think the goals to game ratio for these two players is both skewed a bit by the fact that they played a number of seasons in the tournament before the became regular goalscorers.
13/14 for him. He is way down in 24th position on the alltime chart though and has a somewhat less impressive goals to game ratio as well at 0.40.
But I think the goals to game ratio for these two players is both skewed a bit by the fact that they played a number of seasons in the tournament before the became regular goalscorers.