I should perhaps qualify that by saying limited compared to Messi. Ronaldo is a particularly effective forward. That's it. He does very little now other than put the ball in the back of the net, which he is extremely good at. You could argue that Neymar and Salah are better players. I'm not sure that I would, particularly in the case of Salah after one strong season, but you could argue that. Certainly Neymar has more to his game overall than Ronaldo, while scoring a comparable number of goals.This dude just called Ronaldo a "limited player"
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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That was by far the best performance either has had at a major tournament. Let the guy have his moment, there’s a lot of football to be played.
Imo its ridiculous anyone disputing it. The top 4 of all time are easily Messi, Ronaldo, pele and Maradona. What order they go in, that's up for interpretation. Not many will have seen enough of Pele and probably not many on here will have seen enough of Maradona to accurately say. There hasnt been anywhere near the same amount of access to watch games like theres been to Ronaldo and Messi. But past those 4, everyone is on the level below I would say.
You might as well have just said new is better than old. The substance of your argument doesn't go beyond that, if we're being honest. Which is fine but hardly worth a discussion. And by old, you mean anything pre-2010. Because Zidane in 2006 did exactly what these mythological players did back then.
Robben reached the semis, and Muller reached the finals. Both, I think had better tournament than Messi. In fact, it could be argued that Mascherano deserved it more than Messi considering that he was their best player in the three final matches.
Yeah you don't really have any clue about the Portugal national team if you're saying that. People are expecting 4 points of the next 2 games, not 6. Have you seen us play against defensive teams during the Fernando Santos era? Morocco didn't concede a single goal during qualification for the World Cup, Iran conceded 2, both in the last game when qualification was already guaranteed.
I understand, underestimate his opponents and overhype his teammates and suddenly what he does isn't that impressive but in reality Iran are the best team from Asia and Morocco are the second best african team, both games will be tough not only for us but for Spain too. Just like Iran was tough for Argentina in the last World Cup.
i'm of the same opinion. Out of those 4 I feel pele gets the hardest time. he was by far the best player for many years in a league that would have been the equivalent of one of la liga/premier league these says, and comfortably the best player in his countries history, who just happen to be the most successful country of all time with probably the best collective group of historical stars.
This dude just called Ronaldo a "limited player"
@wub1234 argued one week ago that Bale was a better player than Ronaldo, that's all you need to know about what Ronaldo does to some people.
Portugal will beat both easily. Quote me.
Totally agree. His performances in the last Euros (including the qualification stage) essentially makes people to not use 'Ronaldo is bad in international football' when it comes to his legacy. But they shouldn't be used as a large argument in favor of his legacy, considering that he definitely wasn't the best player of the tournament (Griezmann obviously was, and again, it was nowhere a legendary performance from him) and it could be argued that he wasn't Portugal's best player (I think that he was, but Nani and Pepe were really good too).
In that case there is more to the game then just attacking. Have never seen Messi defending but Ronaldo does that too (although just for corners and set pieces).
Also people claim that Messi is not scoring because he now plays as a more of a playmaker, but then isn't it the playmakers responsibility to build his teams attack and create chances. Then you can complain that Argentina does not play well as a team. Can't have it both ways.
While Ronaldo has not reached the Peak that Messi attained, but then Messi has not proved himself anywhere except for Barca (Ronaldo even back then was a beast in EPL, has won the Euros). Barca is Messi and Messi is Barca of late I am thinking it goes both ways.
To be fair this is already settled for me
Its peak vs longevity, playmaker versus goal-scorer, Better vs Greater
pick the one you like.
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I want to both prove you wrong and Portugal to win easily
The point is we might beat both easily but assuming that we will after having seen us play those types of games is not a smart thing to do.
I want to both prove you wrong and Portugal to win easily
The point is we might beat both easily but assuming that we will after having seen us play those types of games is not a smart thing to do.
yes it is. i saw your team with my own eyes yesterday and at times they looked great. they play the same way as they did for periods against spain and theyll slaughter iran and beat morocco easily.
I was having lunch and only saw this now... you're really unbelievable
I didn't prove you wrong, Ronaldo did. Do you want me to go back and quote some of your posts? Now that would be childish but when put to face on how completely wrong they were on something maybe you'll understand why I'm talking the way I'm talking.
How did Ronaldo prove me wrong when I say that many people here keep basing and reaffirming their opinion based on one game? By being very good in one game?
I don't even know what you're talking about when you're saying that you want to quote my posts. What have I said in the past that goes against what I'm saying now? I'm all for you quoting me as I would love to see what you're talking about, and the only thing that would be childish is to "threaten" to quote me but not doing it and only implying that I'm in the wrong. First you can at least tell me what your accusing me of.
Praising
Your praise for his performance yesterday was to downplay everything he did and then claim you hadn't seen him do any better in years...
I know that we all get caught up in this oasis of bickering but is it really that difficult to be honest about something as trivial like me saying nice things about a football player? Turn down the hate a few clicks and maybe we'll all have a better time here.
Awesome.
So your argument is that people chose which one to vote for based on the players form (which I can sort of agree with). But the thing is that when their "forms" changed over the course of one game each the poll also changed by 15% and that's my problem with it. Maybe we should change the name of the poll to 'Messi vs Ronaldo over the past few weeks'.
Just read the thread starting from 8pm last night, there's tons of "this discussion is over" type posts, which is exactly what I'm talking about.
And I said ok because it had literally nothing whatsoever to do with anything I said.
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Well, you could argue that Muller is better than Ronaldo:
(i) Better goals per game record at club level than Ronaldo (653 in 705 vs 573 in 763);
(ii) Much better goals per game record at international level than Ronaldo (68 in 62 vs 84 in 151);
(iii) Scored more goals in his best season than Ronaldo (67 in 1972-73 vs 60 in 2011-12);
(iv) Won 4 major European trophies at a time when they were much harder to win (or even qualify for);
(v) Won the Bundesliga 5 times, when it was much harder to win, which is more league titles than Ronaldo has won;
(vi) Won the World Cup, which Ronaldo has never done;
(vii) Was top scorer in a World Cup, which Ronaldo has never done;
(viii) Was all-time top scorer in the World Cup for 32 years;
(ix) Leads Ronaldo in World Cup goals 14-3;
(x) Scored in the World Cup final, which Ronaldo has never done;
(xi) Scored two in the European Championships final, Ronaldo has never scored in a major international final.
All I am saying is that it's very hard to compare modern football with games played 50 years ago.
I did not argue that, as you well know. I said that Bale would probably score as many goals as Ronaldo in the Real Madrid team if he played as many games and was made the complete focus of the team, as Ronaldo is now. BTW Bale has performed more consistently and at a higher level in a major international tournament that Ronaldo ever has, so I wouldn't mock him quite so readily.
Ronaldo seems to thrive playing for his national team, where as Messi also seems anguished. There's just no joy there at all. Always seems miserable, and always whinging to the refs. Just doesn't enjoy it imo.
Absolutely ridiculous post. He was the complete attacking footballer at his peak who could hurt teams from just about anywhere. Probably the best counter attacking threat of all time and one of the best headers’ of a ball there’s ever been. To call Ronaldo a limited footballer is a laughable statement that destroys any credibilty you have. He basically transcended what a wide forward was. It’s like criticising eiter of them for their defensive attributes. Crazy.
He’s obviously become more of a specialist in the last few seasons, as I’m sure Messi will in the coming seasons. He will do very well to be affecting big games against the best sides in the way Ronaldo has against in recent years. 43 goals, Forty three goals, in Madrid’s last three CL winning campaigns. To play down that achievement is just sad. Salah and Neymar have done nothing to even enter the conversation.
You’ve had a shocker.
Contradicting myself somewhat from what I've said before but totally agree with this. The debate is rather tiresome but it's unavoidable really.
Is there much between him and the likes of Cruyff and Di Stefano though?
For example, in Super Ballon D'Or voting when all Ballon D'Or winners voted for the greatest players of all time (1st place 5 points, 2nd place 3 points and 3rd place 1 point) at the end of the nineties, Cruyff finished ahead of Maradona (with Pele totally owning the award).
I think that Pele, Ronaldo and Messi are the top 3 (probably in that order), with Maradona, Cruyff, Di Stefano and possibly Beckenbauer one level below them. Maradona's club achievements are really way worse than any other player in the list (despite that he won it with Napoli).
And if Ronaldo or Messi somehow manage to win this tournament, there is 0 argument than 'I like Maradona more' that someone might have for him. In everything else bar international football, Messi and Ronaldo are so way ahead of Maradona, that personally, I just cannot put them in the same level.
Someone might argue that Pele is one level ahead of everyone, considering that in international football he is far ahead of others, while in club football, he was legendary too. I don't disagree with this mainly because football was a bit shit back then, but there are legitimate arguments to have Pele as the obvious No. 1 still.
Neymar doesn't have more to his game than Ronaldo, he might have different things to Ronaldo, but not more.
And particularly, I don't consider Neymar a better dribbler than 2004-2008 Ronaldo, the fact that Ronaldo has forfeited that part of his game doesn't mean he wasn't great at it. Still current Ronaldo has better shot and crosses, is stronger, a better goalscorer (Neymar is an awful finisher) and he's better with both legs and in positional and aerial play. Current day Ney might be a better dribbler, more consistent (due to his age) and has a better last pass, but his decision making, especially in big games, puts him a couple leagues behind Ronaldo in those games.
And Ronaldo is a smart player, even with his current arsenal focused on just one task (score), he brings a lot of tools to his team's table, it's not a coincidence that Heynckes was one of the few managers in recent years that had a solid plan to avoid his CB's from falling into Ronaldo traps and managing to make him look rather underwhelming, and even in that situation Ronaldo had a couple of chances to seal that leg, it just happens that no player scores 100% of his chances.
It is absurd because there's not even a comparison to make anymore. I just find funny how people bring up several names like you did and mention Eusebio when even Benfica fans have stopped doing that. He's missing a very good World Cup but if he builds on that Spain game then his international career doesn't pale in comparison to anybody.
Put any other player in history in Ronaldo's shoes and I don't think Portugal do as well as what we've done in the 15 years he's played for us.
Does Evra have a disproportionately huge head or is something wrong with the video?
@wub1234 leave the thread. you wont last long on this forum if you keep up those shockers.
You should just quit. You're making it worse.He's had better performances than this one in his whole WC and EC career, he just didn't reap the fruits in those performances.
And I don't want to take away his moment, I'm just pointing at the inconsistency of taking away Leo's merits for a particular reason but disregard that reason with another player.
Good lord. Numerical lists. Are you going to start adding footnotes too?
I was having that discussion and arguing the same 5 years ago. I think it was a valid discussion then. You must not have watched him since. I've watched all of Muller's World Cup games and European Cup finals, start to finish, and I think he's a remarkably underrated player. The idea he was some kind of Inzaghi on steriods is totally ridiculous. But since Ronaldo found his mojo in big games and drove his teams to remarkable successes, the arguments in favour of Muller totally disappeared.
No way. He was ridiculous yesterday. His link up play, his movement, he was a one man wrecking ball even without the goals. The fact that Bernardo and Guedes were AIDS only enhances what he managed to do. It was also againt Spain, who themselves looked fantastic and are rightfully among the favourites.
It was an incredible performance. He deserves the credit and to deny it makes anyone doing so seem pretty bitter.
I don't honestly remember the group games too well but Messi was definitely excellent against Switzerland. At the business end of the tournament he wasn't too great though. I remember Mascherano being an absolute beast in the quarters, semi's and final and ultimately felt he was more deserving of the award. Guy played his heart out.
I'm not mocking Bale, I'm mocking what you said. Don't think I really need to do so after statements like those...
You did claim Bale was a better football player than Ronaldo 2 weeks ago, that's a fact. A sad one but it's true.
I think Ronaldo is a better player than Eusébio so I don't think you understood what I was saying, or you're wilfully conflating the two arguments to spin things in favour of Ronaldo again. You must understand how boring that is.
Messi is still great at club level but Ronaldo stepped up a bit at international level. Still early days in the wc but Ronaldo carried the Portugal team yesterday and Messi had an off day today.
Well, that's interesting because I watched a programme on the History Channel a few weeks ago, in which Gary Lineker, Jermaine Jenas, Gianfranco Zola and Ryan Giggs debated Messi and Ronaldo, and not only did Messi come out on top, but all four of them agreed that Messi is a more complete and skilful player. Even Giggs, who was highly biased towards Ronaldo, had to concede this. So go and tell 'Giggsy' that he's had a shocker.
I mean, this is almost universally accepted by everyone who has working eyeballs. That's why Messi just topped the La Liga stats in every single category, most goals scored, most assists, most key passes, most completed dribbles, plus he also broke the La Liga free-kick record.
Where was Ronaldo? Nowhere. Because he's a limited player compared to Messi. No disgrace in that, everyone is.
It actually beggars belief that Messi could score more goals, score much more difficult goals, hammer Ronaldo as a free-kick taker, get more assists, more key passes, complete more dribbles, quite obviously be a much better team player than Ronaldo, quite obviously have a better skillset, as is widely acknowledged by ex-professionals, and yet you don't even have the maturity to accept that he's a superior footballer to Ronaldo.
And your best argument is making some statement about a future that hasn't even happened yet. Yes, hypothetically, based on something that we can't possibly know yet, and which certainly hasn't happened, you're right, Ronaldo is the better player! What a bulletproof argument! Let's just ignore the fact that Messi has consistently dominated Spanish football and been the player of the year nine times to one, it's obvious that things which have yet to happen are more important!
That's what I call having a shocker, young man.
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The only thing that is certain is that when the argument started in the early part of the decade, Messi was obviously better. At that time, many of Man Utd fans were emotionally arguing for Ronaldo because he played for the club. Even then, Messi was better but the argument was once Ronaldo becomes older and loses his pace, he would wither away while Messi with his intelligence would play a long time with similar effectiveness. But Ronaldo has totally turned it around and has closed the gap and is arguably a better player now. We may have to revisit this after their career end for a definitive conclusion, but because of the turnaround, there are a lot of Messi fans now who argue emotionally that Messi is the GOAT.
But what a time to be alive to see the battle between these two. If one of them wins the WC though, it'll be interesting to see how it affects Maradona's standing in the GOAT list.
But what a time to be alive to see the battle between these two. If one of them wins the WC though, it'll be interesting to see how it affects Maradona's standing in the GOAT list.
I did say it...
You were one of the people who ignored what he was doing for Portugal while constantly downplaying what he was doing for Real Madrid because of his teammates. Hence me saying he proved you wrong at the biggest stage in world football. I don't know how many times I argued here with people saying he'd look a lot worse without those great players behind him.
It's a football discussion, there's bickering but there's no hate and it's just some fun. I was honest in what I said.
About the rest, it's only natural that there's euphoria and exaggerations over a game like that one. Don't take the poll seriously.
I don't think Ronaldo's better than Messi, but I think both get underrated and overrated in equal measure. Messi's a better natural dribbler, but that doesn't mean Ronaldo's not (was) a very good dribbler - watch him tear up defences in our 06/07 season. Messi's a better passer from playmaking positions - but that doesn't mean Ronaldo's not a good passer - watch the one two's he was playing last night against Spain.
I think we all have our own individual biases on which player we prefer - e.g. you saying Messi has the superior skillset I'd disagree with even though I'd say Messi's better on the ball, but Ronaldo has better movement, finishing, and all round versatility as he showed yesterday when he playing as both the main goal scoring threat and creator for Portugal. But obviously some will disagree and that's fine, we all have our own opinions.
But saying he's a limited player imo is taking it too far. There's bias, and then there's just disingenuous.
Indeed. After all, if you compare their career assists, Messi has something like 32 assists more than Ronaldo in their entire careers. It is quite better (considering that Messi has played less games), but with 200+ assists, it shows that Ronaldo is actually a quite good passer of the ball in the final third.
Ronaldo was in England.
I think Messi was the better footballer (not necessarily the greater), but at least try to hide your bias.
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