I would have said so too some time ago, but after having researched about Müller and started watching games, I'd probably put him ahead of Ronaldo.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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you are mean.
Hope not, why?
Verona also won a title in that difficult era, does that make Elkjaer the GOAT?
Fixed that for you.
If you can't see a difference between Maradona's performances and achievements at Napoli and Elkjaer's at Verona, then it's clearly pointless to discuss this topic further.
I mean they talk about Maradona's achievment at Napoli like its some impossibility, when Verona did the same thing one year before.
He later won another Serie A with a great team, alongside all time greats like Careca..
You're being ridiculous. Careca would've been a relative nobody if not for Maradona's performances for Napoli. He was a very good player but he was never close to being one of the best strikers in the world at the time, never mind an all time great. He's known for being part of Ma-gi-ca, and he was undoubtedly a big part of it, but even in Brazil he's hardly mentioned. He's comparable to someone like Cavani who, good player that he is, will be remembered for very little.
Problem is the only facts people see nowadays are trophies and goals/assist. Maradona played for Napoli and not for a super team like Madrid and Barca and hence clearly is a relatively weak club footballer. It's obviously awful logic. If we're going merely by trophies Ronaldo has been poor in league football over the last 8 years. Heck the one year Madrid are going to win the league he hasn't actually been all that good. That's why it's important to look at context and circumstances. Performances in the environment presented to you is what is relevant rather than merely looking at stats/wins irrespective of how dominant one's team/team mates/club is.
True, but the problem is that when circumstances and variables are so different it makes argumenting over who is the greatest impossible, and only valid through personal experience. And that goes in favour of the player who you see live, since seeing him will impress you more than someone telling you how great another player was.
But what you are saying is true. Which also means that Messi doesn't have to win the World Cup, to be considered better than Maradona, just like Maradona isn't blamed for not doing at Napoli what Messi has done at Barca in terms of not only peak level of play but also of in terms of consistency and longevity.
In theory, yeah, but when you consider that Maradona while playing with a weaker bunch (compared to Messi's) and against really strong opponents like England, Belgium and West Germany in 1986 not only got them the win but also did that with some incredible overall performances as opposed to Messi who not only didn't win but was pretty underwhelming, both by his own standards and those of any other all time greats, then it's a massive gap. His performances in the World Cup were hardly better than an average attacking player who got a few good moments in a game but failed to make a larger impact, let alone an incredible dominating one. Forget Maradona, you have the likes of Zidane vs Brazil in 06, Cruyff vs Argentina in 74, Pele vs Sweden in 58, etc which are of absolutely elite standard. The fact that they won those games is simply an afterthought and something that was inevitable after you had a great player at the top of his game. Even if Messi had buried that chance vs Germany or had Gotze not scored and it had gone to penalties with Arg winning, it wouldn't have changed much. There's no excuse for his disappointing shows for Argentina, especially at the WC. As a comparison, Cruyff didn't win in 1974 but not only was he individually brilliant for a lot of that tournament but also was the lynchpin around whom Rinus Michels built his revolutionary tactic of total football, a spectacle that the whole world witnessed. Sure he should have finished the job but regardless he delivered what was expected of a player of that stature. Messi didn't, and wasn't even close.
I'm , sincerely, surprised that this thread is still going.
Messi is so far superior (even goals are super close) in every single metric and such.
Messi is so far superior (even goals are super close) in every single metric and such.
Sure, if their entire career is equal to those 10-15 matches they played in World Cups, then Maradona is undoubdetly a better player than Messi.
Of course, doing so would be stupid. Maradona played another 650 matches and Messi played another 740 matches, and I don't think that we should throw them away entirely.
I find 'only the World Cup matters' a bit stupid in our era. That might have been the case until the nineties when World Cup was the only tournament we saw, and it was either that or highlights (which is why players who did very well there are a bit overrated). Now we see players playing each week, and surprise surprise, they aren't super brilliant each match.
I agree and disagree with parts of this comment. I agree that Messi could have done better with Argentina, considering his proven atg ability. I disagree that the Argentina team was or is very good, since it doesn't even play as a proper team, but more like a collection of some offensive stars. If not for Messi this year for example, they would probably be watching the next World Cup on TV, that says a lot about the quality of a team. Messi is by far the team's best player, and the main reason for why they made 3 consecutive finals at the World Cup, and the two Copa Americas. But one player can't really carry weaker teams to huge success anymore, since football as a collective sport has evolved imo., with extra tactical knowledge, better fitness level from the teams, more games to be played during the calendar year. The conditions, as the previous poster said, are different. But this works against players from all eras, and excuses for their failings can be found for all, not just for some (especially the past glories).
They are a dysfunctional team (to some degree), not a poor team. A large part of blame why they are dysfunctional should go to Messi himself, who is the captain and has power to fire managers or even choose players which should not play for Argentina, like in the case of Icardi.
Remove Messi from that team and leave the likes of Aguero and co. play together and it suddenly becomes a very good team. Of course, not as good as with Messi, but it would still be a good team. Obviously, suddenly removing their best passer, creator and goalscorer makes the other players not know what to do.
it really doesn't, though. I don't know which Argentina you have been watching to, but they actually have an awful record without him. so far, they've played 8 games without Messi in their current WC qualification campaign, winning only once. even the worst team in group, Venezuela, have scored more than Argentina.
they are clueless without Messi.
It's absolutely hilarious hahahha. We couldn't beat the likes of Paraguay and Bolivia without Messi. In fact, we would be out of the cup without Messi 
Because they have become overly dependent on Messi. Aguero, Di Maria, Dybala, Higuain and co. are all great players. By simply putting Argentina's shirt instead of their team's shirt (and all of them have shined with multiple teams so it isn't that they are suited to a single system) they don't suddenly become shit players.
The coaches are to be blamed for this over-reliance on Messi, but Messi as the leader of the team and the main playmaker has some part of the blame for not being able to elevate his teammates.
It's Ronaldo for me. Always will be.
Funny thing is: When Messi was leading Ronaldo 4-1 at the Ballon d'Or, i thought it was much, much closer than now at 5-4.
True. That's because Ronaldo, at United, and even in the early Madrid days was more of a complete player than he is now imo. He used to take people on, go on dribbling runs, pull off some nice passes as well. More of a winger type similar to a better Arjen Robben. But as time went by, he cut his involvement in the build-up to a negligible influence, and he has become more like a clinical no9, hugely dependent on great service.
They aren't shit players, but are playing like shit for Argentina with or without Messi. Messi is carrying that team. While it is not true that he carried a star-studded Barcelona, it is true that he was carrying Argentina and is now doing it more than ever.
That is not always possible. And without Messi there is no 3 finals in 3 consecutive tournaments for Argentina, so you might as well say that he did elevate the team, just not to the very very end (i.e. winning the cups). He did take his team to 3 finals. Just because he didn't win with Argentina, doesn't mean getting to those 3 finals is not a great performance as well.
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Trust me I would know, I lived in Brazil before. Careca is considered the best striker they had after Romario and Ronaldo by many. If he wasn't injured in 1982, Brazil would be that much powerful.
It would be hard for Messi to elevate Argentina when he isn't playing. The correlation this year or so in particular is quite striking, they are muck when he's not there. And since he started playing for them, they've overcome their Brazil hoodoo thanks to him, they've reached 3 finals, they've had an extended run as the world's no.1 ranked NT which only ended recently, and he has become their all time top goalscorer in the process. The reality is that he's been as good for Argentina as he is for Barca for literally years, but Argentina are poorly managed and have a top heavy squad. Everyone can list off a million forwards, but how many people could name the keeper and back four without having to check wikipedia? Beyond literally de-aging Maradona and Passarella to have them help out, what more can he do?
Add another to Ronaldo's CL tally
Not really, not to put down Messi (who I think is a great player and is better than Ronaldo) but being 18 and moving to a country where you didn't know the language fully, without your family is a big an achievement as what Messi did (who had his family with him so immediately has a stronger support network) and the language thing isn't that big a deal as 99% of Catalans speak speak Spanish (like the Welsh speak English!).
Better than Tostao/Pele (depending on who you consider the striker in '70) or Vava? I'd suggest they have short memories if so. No doubt he'd have made a huge difference in '82 but so would most Brazil strikers from other generations, including Careca's forgettable strike partner Muller.
Anyway, back on topic...Ronaldo's involvement lessens each year but it seems like he's even more decisive with his fewer touches these days. Incredible adaptability in his later years given how big a role his physique has played throughout his career.
5-5
Verona won the league the season that they changed the rules so that teams wouldn't know who would ref the match before hand. Verona won it and they changed it back again. Hmm...
Elkjær was great but he was no Maradon, that's for sure.
Not influential enough, I would say. If he only made another couple of dribbles and an excellent pass that leads to a corner, he would have been so much better. But as Caf knows, goals don't win matches and they don't matter.
Correct me if I'm wrong but it's still long time to next Ballon D'or. So it's maybe too early to claim who'll win it?
Saying all that Ronaldo has been amazing this year.
Saying all that Ronaldo has been amazing this year.
The big question is how many other top players would score if being the focal point of the attack of a side with Real's all-round quality and creativity.
Messi used to outscore him regularly during the time when he was all about the goals.
If Real wins UCL, it is his. No standout competitor this season bar Messi who flopped in UCL to some degree, and Cavani who plays in a B type league.
If they win another champions league, it's arguable that Ronaldo has accomplished more than Messi during their overlapping time in Spain.
Nah, it's heavily weighted toward Messi, Ronaldo, and the Champions League. At this point, there can only be one winner.
So if Real wins it it doesn't matter what happens to December?
I mean for me Messi ran riot last week. Ronaldo did very well tonight every chance he got he took but not even close to Messi's level and what Messi brings to his team
Not really. If Ronaldo wins this they'll both be on three CL's trophies in Spain, and presuming Ronaldo does well in the final then it'll be the case that they've been instrumental in all of those wins. Plus Messi's got the much more record when it comes to winning trophies domestically.
It's a shame that despite two hat tricks in massive games.....the best game the Bernabeu has seen in 2017 was by Lionel.
In all seriousness(though the above IS true), this is just Kaka 2007 upped even more, he's gonna get the old d'Or purely on a few games, over the season, Marcelo, Ramos, Kroos and Modric have arguably been more key. But big players win big games. Boom.
In all seriousness(though the above IS true), this is just Kaka 2007 upped even more, he's gonna get the old d'Or purely on a few games, over the season, Marcelo, Ramos, Kroos and Modric have arguably been more key. But big players win big games. Boom.
Best in the world CR7....not even up for debate
My guess is somewhere between 0 and 0.
Playing in a better team, in a more advanced position. Still, since Messi became a starter, Ronaldo has outscored him more times than the other way around.
Ronaldo also scores much more in the latter stages of UCL than Messi.
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