If any, a similar rival (at least initially) would had to have been Kubala, the star man of the Barcelona of the five cups featuring greats such as Ramallets, Segarra, Basora, César Rodríguez (the former all-time highest scorer for the club before Messi took that title)... later on they added Justo Tejada, Luis Suárez Miramontes (the BdO of 1960), Evaristo, Czibor, Kocsis etc.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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If any, a similar rival (at least initially) would had to have been Kubala, the star man of the Barcelona of the five cups featuring greats such as Ramallets, Segarra, Basora, César Rodríguez (the former all-time highest scorer for the club before Messi took that title)... later on they added Justo Tejada, Luis Suárez Miramontes (the BdO of 1960), Evaristo, Czibor, Kocsis etc.
Is there any manager or player on record as saying Ronaldo is the greatest of all time?
Literally none of them come anywhere near Messi.
Madrid apart from Di Stefano also had Puskas, Gento, Kopa, Santamaria and Pirri. To suggest they had similar competition as Cristiano's Madrid is laughable.
Don't know what agenda with Ronaldo you have but it's a bit silly. Messi is the better player yes, but to state all Ronaldo has is goalscoring is a bit daft.
Barcelona had the best club team in history in that period which is why Madrid found it difficult. The gap is closing now though...
Comparing them in terms of goals is like comparing Ronaldo and Maradona in terms of goals and saying Ronaldo is better as a result. You can argue Ronaldo is better than either of them - I'd personally disagree - but not on the basis of goals. Di Stefano was a complete midfielder with a remarkable knack for goalscoring.
I have no agenda, Di Stefano basically is Madrid. He made them the Club they are now (with the help of other big stars of that time). Cristiano just won 1 Liga title since he arrived...
By numbers Ronaldo is better than Maradona and Pele...but we all know the reality.
True, Maradona never scored more than 23 goals for either of his European clubs.
We actually don't know the reality other than that the latter two are legends of the past who spent large chunks of their careers running rampant for South American sides. The World Cups are nice though. I wouldn't expect Portugal to win it no matter how good Ronaldo is. Still a Euro Cup, another Euro final and a WC semi is pretty good.
Ronaldo and Messi would've put up far better numbers in those days. Football wasn't internationalized or diversified yet and you wouldn't see the best players in the world going to other countries as they do today.
So those leagues were better than actual south american leagues and close to the european ones back then, right?
You can't compare things that easily. As a player, Ronaldo is not even a close to Maradona. Technically, Maradona is the most gifted player of all times. And he was a genius, like Messi. Both were/are a couple seconds ahead of the other players mentally. Ronaldo is just normal in that aspect (which is different from his incredible sense of intuition for the goals).
I'm sure you are quite passionate about this given your location, but all things said, in about 20-30 years the conversation will be all about Messi and Ronaldo and not people who played decades earlier. No one will put up these kinds of numbers over for the better part of a decade for a very long time.
It's an insult to Messi that threads like this even exist... No contest.
Football is more than numbers. That's what the Ronaldo fans doesn't understand. There are no mesureable things which are as important. Ronaldo scored many goals but in every Champions League final with Madrid and in 2009 with United he underperformed, being a ghost. And Messi is the top goalscorer of Argentina's national team but he hasn't contributed as he could too, and many other players have done more.
Ronaldo is one of the best goalscorers of all times, and that's it. Messi is one of the best players of all time, and in my opinion the best. That's the difference in my eyes. Kudos for Ronaldo for making the comparison posible by taking everything into numbers.
Clearly Messi. I even think he's better than Maradona 
I don't think that will happen. History will be judged by more than numbers. When Ronaldo started scoring 40 goals a season noone claimed he was the best player of all time because his overall game isnt anywhere near as dominant as it needs to be for that. However when Messi and Ronaldhinio hit their peaks, these claims arose, because their complete impact on games was huge.
At the very least Ronaldo has to be considered among on the best players to have ever played for Real Madrid if we take everything into account. Di Stefano might still come ahead and Zidane is also now very well regarded because of what he won as a player and what he's doing now as a manager but that's more like a sentimental preference because objectively I think Ronaldo has done enough merits to be consider on par with Di Stefano.
Also it's not for sure Ronaldo and Messi could performe at the level they do now in the past and viceversa. The evolving of football it isn't solely to the players getting better but it has also evolved with the development in medicine (applied to sports), technology overall, commercialization, etc. So there would be a lot of circumstances that would be different so not everything is down to just raw talent. For instance I don't think Messi would have received the same hormonal treatment from Barcelona, and he might not even be scouted by them in the past to begin with so trying to make direct comparisons with players from different times can be silly and pointless.
Your Higuain and Aguero quote shows you are talking a bit of nonsense, they are horrible for Argentina and mainly the reasons of their failures. Every time people expect them to perform at their club form, yet they play like donkey's. Aguero just being generally shit and Higuain just a huge bottler. Argentina is also full of politics etc, it's mysterious how Dybala/Icardi havent cemented a plafe for instance. The last few teams really arent as good as you think, their attack is good on paper but horrible in reality. Dont know why Ronaldo gets so much credit too when he didnt even play the final. Individually, Messi had better NT tournaments than Ronaldo. But winning a final you didnt play in, outweighs all.
Probably Ronaldo
SAF?
Is he really though?
Seems to me the key argument for why Ronaldo is arguably the GOAT is being ignored here and I'm not sure why.
Yes he is an extremely efficient goalscorer but that wasn't who he always was. Madonna is crowned the queen of pop not for individual songs but for her ability to evolve and make herself relevant. Ronaldo has done the same.
He has adapted to both international and league football in three different countries, two of which play very different styles.
People have short term memories. When he won world player of the year at United he was a dribbler, someone who terrorized defences, was a ruthless scorer but also grabbed games by the scruff of their neck. He was already a great.
He transformed from great to one of all time greats in beginning phase for Real where he honed all the above which gradually led to him evolving, focussing on efficiency and becoming eventually the deadly player we know and some describe as "just a goalscorer".
Not sure why his ability to change and keep himself key (accepting changes to his body, injuries and age - I think he is older than messi yes?) is being used to criticise. It's the sign of greatness that he has changed his game but stayed competing as one of the world's best ever all that time.
People who say he is just a goalscorer are lying to themselves though or have an agenda.
Yes he is an extremely efficient goalscorer but that wasn't who he always was. Madonna is crowned the queen of pop not for individual songs but for her ability to evolve and make herself relevant. Ronaldo has done the same.
He has adapted to both international and league football in three different countries, two of which play very different styles.
People have short term memories. When he won world player of the year at United he was a dribbler, someone who terrorized defences, was a ruthless scorer but also grabbed games by the scruff of their neck. He was already a great.
He transformed from great to one of all time greats in beginning phase for Real where he honed all the above which gradually led to him evolving, focussing on efficiency and becoming eventually the deadly player we know and some describe as "just a goalscorer".
Not sure why his ability to change and keep himself key (accepting changes to his body, injuries and age - I think he is older than messi yes?) is being used to criticise. It's the sign of greatness that he has changed his game but stayed competing as one of the world's best ever all that time.
People who say he is just a goalscorer are lying to themselves though or have an agenda.
He's a more diverse goalscorer.
Messi's more efficient though in terms of goal scoring.
So you can could say it's even.
You make good points, but do you really think Messi would struggle to do the same?
As an example, swap Messi for Ronaldo in that United team. Do you think we'd get worse? No I think we'd get better if anything.
The only example we have seen of Messi playing outside the Barça setup is Argentina where he has failed to meet his standards or elevate the team. I think Ronaldo has done far more in that respects although, having seen numerous England players underperform I don't use that as something to criticise. Just that I have no evidence to suggest that Messi could evolve because he hasn't needed to yet. That they have built round him to such an extent is equally a sign of his greatness.
This is where my issue is with this comparison though. You can't say player X can do something without it being a slight on player y. The fact is Ronaldo has done it. I'm not going to guess whether Messi could.
As an aside, I wouldn't swap Messi for Ronaldo during the 2006-9 period. That Ronaldo was built for the premier league. His physique pace ruthlessness and dribbling made him the perfect player for us. I'm sure Messi would have been good but there is chance he would have struggled physically with less protection from the refs and I don't know how we would have gotten better - we were the best team in the world in my opinion. Barça didn't start outstripping us until 2010 imo.
Messi is the best ever, but C Ronaldo is top 4, with Pele and Maradona.
It's forgivable given their genius, but I personally find that both come across as dicks; Messi can be a spoilt, petulant brat and Ronaldo an arrogant git.
It's forgivable given their genius, but I personally find that both come across as dicks; Messi can be a spoilt, petulant brat and Ronaldo an arrogant git.
Only on a United forum would this be a debate.
This is a very good post and 100% agree with it.
I would say that it is close, but still would put Messi above Ronaldo. He is already on the category of Pele/Maradona. Ronaldo probably is still 'just' on the level of Cruyff/Di Stefano and Beckenbauer. But an another Ballon D'Or for him (likely this season), and it would be difficult even for those that think he is Chicharito to deny that he is on the level of the other three. For what is worth, I think that he matches easily Maradona already.
Because it's a silly criteria no one takes seriously. The absolute greatest players and the ones considered better than Ronaldo all do that. Because you're that good you're able to find ways of hurting teams. Ronaldo doing well at both club level and international is nothing. Not that he's done amazingly for the NT either.
SAF also tipped Phil Jones to be United's greatest ever player
We need Blatter's opinion on this.
That is extremely debatable. Peak Ronaldo (Barcelona) was incredible, and in individual level almost unmatched, but he didn't manage to win the league or UCL. He was playing for Barcelona, with an incredible group of players including Baia, Guardiola, Luis Enrique, Hristo Stoichkov and Luis Figo. If a player at his peak who is considered as one of the greatest ever, is playing with a great collection of players and still finishes second then it is a problem IMO. If you look at the squads that Real and Barcelona have, it is impossible to choose Real Madrid as the better team. Barcelona had finished 10 points above Real the season before that, when Ronaldo was playing in PSV.
Now, I think that Cristiano kind of matches that season with many of his season. Forget his time at Madrid, even his 2007-2008 season for us is very comparable to Luis' best season. 42 goals in all competitions compared to Luis' 48, but Ronaldo was still playing as a winger while Luis was No.9. Winning the league (best player and top goalscorer) and winning UCL (best player and best goalscorer) to finish with winning the Ballon D'Or. Sure, you might think that Luis was better (and probably that is true), but it is very very close.
Now the debate is a bit pointless when you compare their entire careers, considering Cristiano's longevity. Ronaldo has been a top 2 player (mostly a top 2, at times top 1) for a decade. Luis hasn't shown nowhere that level of consistency. Cristiano has won 4 league titles and 3 UCL (very likely to be 5 and 4 in a month), Luis has won 1 league title and no UCL, which is just tragic for a GOAT who has played for PSV, Barca, Inter, Real and Milano. Cristiano hasn't been consistently outscored from the Oliver Bierhofff's of our era, Luis did.
The only thing that Luis has in Ronaldo is international performances. Luis won a World Cup (when he was a top 3 player there together with Rivaldo and Kahn), and reached another final when he was probably the best player (or at least a top 3 together with Thuram and Zidane). Cristiano won an EURO (when he was a top 3 player on his team) and reached an another EURO final when he wasn't a top 3 player on his team, though quite important. Cristiano flopped in 3 World Cups, no doubt there. Of course, Luis played with a far better team.
Now, in order to make the point that Luis had a better career than Cristiano, you need to give more importance those 14 matches that Luis played in World Cup than the rest of their careers (500+ matches). I know that World Cup is incredibly important and the top tournament, but I think it is a bit unfair to reduce their entire careers in 14 matches, which is just 2% of the number of matches they played. In any other equation bar 'only World Cup matters' Cristiano beats Luis as the player with the better career by a huge huge margin.
This is of course considering only the events of our universe. In the alternative universe when Luis doesn't have problems with his injuries, Luis is easily the better player, wins more titles for his clubs (that isn't hard to be fair), more individual titles and is considered as a better version of Pele. He was far more talented than Cristiano, there is no doubt there, but in our universe, Cristiano had a far better career, and there shouldn't be any doubt there.
The national team fluked their way into a Euro Cup without Cristiano even influencing the final game. That is more luck than quality. Aren't you going to count that?
Probably they wouldn't have managed to qualify for EUROs without Ronaldo. Definitely, they would have failed to pass the group stage without him. They would have gone in penalties against Croatia without him, they would have really struggled against Wales (likely lose) without him. And he showed a lot of leadership that they definitely needed, from forcing Moutinho to take the penalty when he was shitting himself and there weren't volunteers to take pens against Poland, to motivating his teammates after France injured him.
Portugal had a lot of luck in the tournament, there is no doubt there. But Ronaldo played a large part why they won despite that he got injured in the final.
United, Real, Portugal and Portugese teams I think, elsewhere indeed, not even a debate.
He is severly biased, talking about Messi bottling championships and hailing Portugal's EC, doesnt make sense. He didnt play the final and they were shit the whole tournament. And why bring in club/NT trophies for individual comparison. Is Nani now better than Ryan Giggs was?
Messi had to move to a different country really early. Had to adapt himself to another culture too, and another language too (they only spoke Catala, this said by him). Had to sign on a napkin because at the time no one knew if that little fella would reach the professional level and they had him 3 months waiting for the approval. And of course, had to go through a treatment to see if he could grow up in order to play since he was 12. So it's comparable to Ronaldo who could live his entire childhood in Madeira and then, at a considerable age, he moved to the biggest club in England, with all the facilities the world could offer him to adapt better, and surely earning some money from the beginning. Many people think Messi was born in La Masia. He was gifted like no one else since he was born. There are videos which are ridiculous from him at 4 playing in Rosario. He played in a great team, just like Ronaldo did both at United and Madrid. The style was not suited to him at all. He was a part of it, he was above it. It's just he was decisive and had the ability to transform the pace of the play, because thats an atribute of him. Playing under counter attack with Madrid for example, he would be as -if not more- lethal back in those days.
The National team argument is the perfect example of someone who has no idea. If Messi played with Postiga and Hugo Almeida, maybe Argentina would have won 3 trophies in 3 years. It's because we had players like Higuain and Aguero that we lost everything.
Messi has done far more than Cristiano Ronaldo individually on these tournaments. And right now is the best player by far from Argentina and literally the only reason we can still think of getting into the WC, which of course is something you don't know and just repeat what everyother Ronaldo fan says.
Messi could perform at any league. That argument is also...so simple. If David Silva can shine on premier league imagine Messi. It's hilarious. And of course Ronaldo hasn't been better internationally. Even more, Ronaldo has never had the pressure Messi had to go through since he came to the big stage. If Ronaldo reaches a semifinal with Portugal everyone will say he's done great, while if Messi does it everyone will say he's shit. He's taken Argentina to two finals of the Copa America, with a mediocre team around him, and they said he was shit. He played a decent WC final besides not being fully fit, and guess what...he had to be trained by Batista, Maradona, Basile and all these useless lads. And under the most corrupted FA in the world, with no projects at all. All things you don't know, you just think that because we have Aguero, Di Maria and Higuain who are utter shit with Argentina we should win everything, as if real life was just like FIFA.
I can't think of many great players that have changed how they play to stay great over such an extended period of time. Giggs changed his game but was never as successful as a midfielder as winger. I'm not sure how many players you think are better than Ronaldo anyway. Seems like you will dismiss his achievements whatever TBH.
Ronaldo has been one of the best players on the planet for a decade now, has numerous poty awards, won everything there is to win at both individual and club basis, can stake a claim to be best player ever for every club he has played at, has smashed records wherever he goes, is just relentless in performing every match etc etc.
I'm not sure what more someone has to do to be considered amongst the GOATs. Certainly many names mentioned (etc Zidane) never got anywhere near his impact.
That many people see him as just a goalscorer is either indicative of short term memory issues or an agenda because of this stupid position where many are so partison that they cant appreciate both Messi and Ronaldo at the same time.
If we had been forensically analysing Pele maradona platini cruyff etc in the way we do players today their legends wouldnt have got anywhere near where they are today. As I said even with zidane he has avoided scrutiny and was nowhere near as consistent as Messi and Ronaldo.
I think we will have to wait 20 more years for people to recognise how remarkable Messi and Ronaldo were.
I don't even think Real fans are that deluded
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