I think he’s done a bit more v City than Ronaldo managed, to be perfectly honest. I’m sure you thought that was a riotous quip though.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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I think he’s done a bit more v City than Ronaldo managed, to be perfectly honest. I’m sure you thought that was a riotous quip though.
The no debate most dominant CL player, titan of clutchness, pinnacle of human mental strength, the Mr CL who will always collapse and did jackshit when faced with his biggest rival, the mental midget, in high stake games in the said competition.
Remind me again, in their CL knockout head to heads, who was the one who pulled out goals after goals, performances after performances?
Its ok to answer that, come out to admit it stop fighting it.
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Without Messi, psg don’t get on the scoreboard
For me Messi is just looking more like the National team version of Lionel Messi playing for Argentina than the one that played for Barcelona.
It's why some of us always questioned Messi's ability to play outside La Liga or Barcelona - it's because :
A) he didn't do it
B) La Liga sticks to a type of football that always played against Barcelona (compared to City's & Arsenal's possesion football, the counterattack & never give up philosophy of United, Chelsea chaging their ethos per every 2 year manager from Jose parking the bus to managers like conte and Tuchel, the gegen pressing of Klopp or the tactics of Rodgers or Benitez or one of the most famous tactical teams of the PL - Stoke City, a type of football that required you to play a different way when playing against such teams that you could argue includes teams like Bolton or Sam allardyce teams.
C) Playing most of your life WITH Barcelona football team. No one can argue that Messi was their best ever player - but ultimately for the most of us, Messi was not required to play Possesion Football to the level Pep got Barcelona playing at. This was primarily shown by Spain National Team winning World Cups and euro's playing possesion football that was 99% similar to how Barcelona played in La Liga or the CL. Spain National team could do it WITHOUT Messi because they had the building blocks of the Pep possesion team (Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Puyol, Pique, Valdes, Alba, Pedro, David Villa and so many more). Messi was not required to play Possesion football - he was the cherry on top of the cake that made the goalscoring aspect of Barcelona go up another level. We saw this again with Spain National team- the team was playing almost 99% to Barcelona FC; but what did Spain lack? The ability of a forward like Messi to finish those chances or even create another level of chances in the front line for the best group possesion based players ever. Messi was great, but him and his technique made Barcelona almost impossible to beat - rather than exactly being the player that built Barcelona's playstyle which had been seen at Spanish National team and even seen in shorter levels under other managers of Barcelona after Pep left Barcelona. Messi loved playing within the style of Football that is seen in Barcelona - because he always seemed liked the Cherry on top of the cake of possesion football.
D) No one is saying that Messi is not a great of the sport that shouldnt be talked about on GOAT levels - but ultimately to some people there was a difference with the Messi we saw playing for Argentina than the Messi playing for Spain National team.. I mean Barcelona. If he could play like he did for Barcelona for any other team in the world - he would be called the greatest. He hasn't done it at PSG, he was great for Argentina but a level below Barcelona levels which was then blamed on the rest of the Argentina team not being good enough.
Vs Ronaldo
1) Then you look at the consistency of C Ronaldo. Put him in any club and in any League and he would perform the the same exact level he always did. Be it for the Portuguese league with sporting, United at EPL, Real Madrid at La Liga, Juventus at Serie A or the Portugal national team when playing International football. His superman jumps, his headers, his shooting, his free kicks, his dribbling, his long shots or his predatory close range finishes.
2) It was not even the clubs he played for- what tactics were he playing with? SAF'S tactics, Mourinho's tactics, Zidane's tactics, Benitez, Ancelotti, Pirlo, Allegri, Sarri, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, Carrick, the Portugal National team - I can't even describe the differences between these managers - some extremely attacking, some extremely defensive, some no tactics at all and some just pure shite like Pirlo or Ole - but Ronaldo can just perform and perform with consistency
3) The teams he played against - whilst playing FOR teams with such a variety of tactics, he performed against the variety of tactics seen by the clubs of the PL, the tactical aspects of La Liga, Serie A, Portuguese league and the National team - all without playing all his life mostly in a possesion based team, it was always playing with different tactics playing VS different tactics.
4) Ronaldo is now older and is doing it in a harder league than League 1. Ronaldo can do it with anyone, at any time, at any league, under any manager be it great, average or poor management against any team that played any and all different types of tactics against him. Just a level of consistency that he wanted to keep and wanted to prove that he was the GOAT and to many of us he succeeded.
It's why some of us always questioned Messi's ability to play outside La Liga or Barcelona - it's because :
A) he didn't do it
B) La Liga sticks to a type of football that always played against Barcelona (compared to City's & Arsenal's possesion football, the counterattack & never give up philosophy of United, Chelsea chaging their ethos per every 2 year manager from Jose parking the bus to managers like conte and Tuchel, the gegen pressing of Klopp or the tactics of Rodgers or Benitez or one of the most famous tactical teams of the PL - Stoke City, a type of football that required you to play a different way when playing against such teams that you could argue includes teams like Bolton or Sam allardyce teams.
C) Playing most of your life WITH Barcelona football team. No one can argue that Messi was their best ever player - but ultimately for the most of us, Messi was not required to play Possesion Football to the level Pep got Barcelona playing at. This was primarily shown by Spain National Team winning World Cups and euro's playing possesion football that was 99% similar to how Barcelona played in La Liga or the CL. Spain National team could do it WITHOUT Messi because they had the building blocks of the Pep possesion team (Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Puyol, Pique, Valdes, Alba, Pedro, David Villa and so many more). Messi was not required to play Possesion football - he was the cherry on top of the cake that made the goalscoring aspect of Barcelona go up another level. We saw this again with Spain National team- the team was playing almost 99% to Barcelona FC; but what did Spain lack? The ability of a forward like Messi to finish those chances or even create another level of chances in the front line for the best group possesion based players ever. Messi was great, but him and his technique made Barcelona almost impossible to beat - rather than exactly being the player that built Barcelona's playstyle which had been seen at Spanish National team and even seen in shorter levels under other managers of Barcelona after Pep left Barcelona. Messi loved playing within the style of Football that is seen in Barcelona - because he always seemed liked the Cherry on top of the cake of possesion football.
D) No one is saying that Messi is not a great of the sport that shouldnt be talked about on GOAT levels - but ultimately to some people there was a difference with the Messi we saw playing for Argentina than the Messi playing for Spain National team.. I mean Barcelona. If he could play like he did for Barcelona for any other team in the world - he would be called the greatest. He hasn't done it at PSG, he was great for Argentina but a level below Barcelona levels which was then blamed on the rest of the Argentina team not being good enough.
Vs Ronaldo
1) Then you look at the consistency of C Ronaldo. Put him in any club and in any League and he would perform the the same exact level he always did. Be it for the Portuguese league with sporting, United at EPL, Real Madrid at La Liga, Juventus at Serie A or the Portugal national team when playing International football. His superman jumps, his headers, his shooting, his free kicks, his dribbling, his long shots or his predatory close range finishes.
2) It was not even the clubs he played for- what tactics were he playing with? SAF'S tactics, Mourinho's tactics, Zidane's tactics, Benitez, Ancelotti, Pirlo, Allegri, Sarri, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, Carrick, the Portugal National team - I can't even describe the differences between these managers - some extremely attacking, some extremely defensive, some no tactics at all and some just pure shite like Pirlo or Ole - but Ronaldo can just perform and perform with consistency
3) The teams he played against - whilst playing FOR teams with such a variety of tactics, he performed against the variety of tactics seen by the clubs of the PL, the tactical aspects of La Liga, Serie A, Portuguese league and the National team - all without playing all his life mostly in a possesion based team, it was always playing with different tactics playing VS different tactics.
4) Ronaldo is now older and is doing it in a harder league than League 1. Ronaldo can do it with anyone, at any time, at any league, under any manager be it great, average or poor management against any team that played any and all different types of tactics against him. Just a level of consistency that he wanted to keep and wanted to prove that he was the GOAT and to many of us he succeeded.
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@Bebestation,
Can’t say I’d disagree. But you are like a total different poster with your tone on Ronaldo in Messi vs Ronaldo thread and over Ronaldo thread.
Over there Ronaldo is the absolute cause of all our problems and a tactical headache at United. Over here he is the GOAT and has the edge over Messi in terms of consistency under different league/tactics/management. I have trouble understand your real thoughts from both. Maybe you are trying to play devil advocates on either one, or both. I wouldn’t know.
I mean, usually people are the other way round. They would normally think Ronaldo has been good or great for United this season and that our leaky defence has nothing to do with him, it’s more to do with Ole and his team, form of our defenders, and weakness from McFred. Whereas vs Messi, Messi would be the better player overall, or something along the line.
Can’t say I’d disagree. But you are like a total different poster with your tone on Ronaldo in Messi vs Ronaldo thread and over Ronaldo thread.
Over there Ronaldo is the absolute cause of all our problems and a tactical headache at United. Over here he is the GOAT and has the edge over Messi in terms of consistency under different league/tactics/management. I have trouble understand your real thoughts from both. Maybe you are trying to play devil advocates on either one, or both. I wouldn’t know.
I mean, usually people are the other way round. They would normally think Ronaldo has been good or great for United this season and that our leaky defence has nothing to do with him, it’s more to do with Ole and his team, form of our defenders, and weakness from McFred. Whereas vs Messi, Messi would be the better player overall, or something along the line.
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I much prefer the bebestation of the other thread because at least he comes off as normal in that one
(I kid)
Doesn't Ronaldo needing Madrids backing to win work against him in this argument?
People think that I hate Ronaldo but I don't and I never have. I never say stuff like I wish we didn't have him or we should sell him.
All i ever say is that building the team towards getting the best out of Ronaldo has positives and negatives - that it's never 100% pure positive. Some people think its 100% perfect and pure positive - ultimately that's fine; I'm not the only one in this world that sees both sides of the coin of Ronaldo.
This is again more to do with the 37 year old version of Ronaldo that is still kicking but has to be managed in the right way towards playing as a striker - IE he needs a striker partner (as we saw from the 442 off ball tactics of Carrick so he can both influence the attack from a LF angle and defending in the best way ie 2 players blocking two passing lanes of 2 CB'S rather than Ronaldo trying or not trying to do it all by himself).
I never hated him and I find it weird when people say that I do - when people make footballing assumptions on our other football players - does it really mean we hate them? I just like to say "No Ronaldo is not perfect at 37, and it does give us a tactical problem that has to be built towards getting the best out of him". Some fans see him score a goal and think that I doubted his ability to score a goal - not even the purest Messi fan would do that. Its more how United have to play with a 37 year old Ronaldo and how teams may play vs a team that holds Ronaldo (like we have to be able to play more as a low block team compared to how teams used to play as a low block vs us seen just last year or the 72% possesion match we had vs Everton when they went in to a low block when playing Cavani etc).
I love Ronaldo, always have and always will. I celebrate his goals but I feel we would play better football if we build our team around the faster younger players and then use Ronaldo to be our plan B or even Plan A.5 - again because he is now nearly 37. This can't happen with arguably the GOAT at your club - that's why I do think it's a tactical problem, but a tactical problem that will score you goals!
Enjoy his time here and let's see how well we can keep going with his goals in the CL
For me Messi is just looking more like the National team version of Lionel Messi playing for Argentina than the one that played for Barcelona.
It's why some of us always questioned Messi's ability to play outside La Liga or Barcelona - it's because :
A) he didn't do it
B) La Liga sticks to a type of football that always played against Barcelona (compared to City's & Arsenal's possesion football, the counterattack & never give up philosophy of United, Chelsea chaging their ethos per every 2 year manager from Jose parking the bus to managers like conte and Tuchel, the gegen pressing of Klopp or the tactics of Rodgers or Benitez or one of the most famous tactical teams of the PL - Stoke City, a type of football that required you to play a different way when playing against such teams that you could argue includes teams like Bolton or Sam allardyce teams.
C) Playing most of your life WITH Barcelona football team. No one can argue that Messi was their best ever player - but ultimately for the most of us, Messi was not required to play Possesion Football to the level Pep got Barcelona playing at. This was primarily shown by Spain National Team winning World Cups and euro's playing possesion football that was 99% similar to how Barcelona played in La Liga or the CL. Spain National team could do it WITHOUT Messi because they had the building blocks of the Pep possesion team (Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Puyol, Pique, Valdes, Alba, Pedro, David Villa and so many more). Messi was not required to play Possesion football - he was the cherry on top of the cake that made the goalscoring aspect of Barcelona go up another level. We saw this again with Spain National team- the team was playing almost 99% to Barcelona FC; but what did Spain lack? The ability of a forward like Messi to finish those chances or even create another level of chances in the front line for the best group possesion based players ever. Messi was great, but him and his technique made Barcelona almost impossible to beat - rather than exactly being the player that built Barcelona's playstyle which had been seen at Spanish National team and even seen in shorter levels under other managers of Barcelona after Pep left Barcelona. Messi loved playing within the style of Football that is seen in Barcelona - because he always seemed liked the Cherry on top of the cake of possesion football.
D) No one is saying that Messi is not a great of the sport that shouldnt be talked about on GOAT levels - but ultimately to some people there was a difference with the Messi we saw playing for Argentina than the Messi playing for Spain National team.. I mean Barcelona. If he could play like he did for Barcelona for any other team in the world - he would be called the greatest. He hasn't done it at PSG, he was great for Argentina but a level below Barcelona levels which was then blamed on the rest of the Argentina team not being good enough.
Vs Ronaldo
1) Then you look at the consistency of C Ronaldo. Put him in any club and in any League and he would perform the the same exact level he always did. Be it for the Portuguese league with sporting, United at EPL, Real Madrid at La Liga, Juventus at Serie A or the Portugal national team when playing International football. His superman jumps, his headers, his shooting, his free kicks, his dribbling, his long shots or his predatory close range finishes.
2) It was not even the clubs he played for- what tactics were he playing with? SAF'S tactics, Mourinho's tactics, Zidane's tactics, Benitez, Ancelotti, Pirlo, Allegri, Sarri, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, Carrick, the Portugal National team - I can't even describe the differences between these managers - some extremely attacking, some extremely defensive, some no tactics at all and some just pure shite like Pirlo or Ole - but Ronaldo can just perform and perform with consistency
3) The teams he played against - whilst playing FOR teams with such a variety of tactics, he performed against the variety of tactics seen by the clubs of the PL, the tactical aspects of La Liga, Serie A, Portuguese league and the National team - all without playing all his life mostly in a possesion based team, it was always playing with different tactics playing VS different tactics.
4) Ronaldo is now older and is doing it in a harder league than League 1. Ronaldo can do it with anyone, at any time, at any league, under any manager be it great, average or poor management against any team that played any and all different types of tactics against him. Just a level of consistency that he wanted to keep and wanted to prove that he was the GOAT and to many of us he succeeded.
Barcelona outside of Pep era, never replicated that type of possession base football, Rijkaard team, Enrique team, Tata Martino, EV, Koeman, Seiten teams didn't play that level of possession, your mistakes is because Barcelona held on to possession you think they played like that which is false. All top teams play with high possession due to the fact most their opponent are inferior in terms of quality or most teams give the ball so they can sit back and counter attack.
CR7 was able to adjust too many different tactics because he also had world class managers, who were able to either get him to adjust or find away to fit him in. I mean have you compared the list of their top 5 managers?
CR7:
1. SAF
2. Mou
3. Ancelotti
4. Zidane
5. Allegri
Messi:
1. Pep
2. Enrqiue
3. Rijkaard
4. EV
5. Tito
I mean that is a ground to sky differential in terms of coaching quality, we all know how important it is to have a world class managers. A lot of people think Pep is a fraud and got carried by Messi as did Enrique, so Messi never truly had a world class manager which tells us a lot, just imagine if Barcelona had managers like prime Mou, Sir Alex or Ancelotti.
Ronaldo at Juve and United with managers like Sarri, Pirlo and Ole never really did anything special either he can't carry mediocrity of coaches and players. It's just we've seen Messi stuck with this mediocrity more then CR7.
There are two posters called ‘Bebestation.’
It’s the only plausible explanation
By the way, can we stop this ridiculous nonsense about Messi ‘proving’ that he can’t do it in another league? Let’s see where he is at the end of the season. My guess is, he’ll be garlanded on an individual and team level as much as he has been in all his previous seasons.
Tried before to put this point across to the CR7 50cents army, and the replies I got included “Setien, Tata and co weren’t that bad, it is not as if they are moyes”. I mean they rate Setien and Tata higher than Moyes, need I say more?
And you are right, but Messi played in the same league primarily where most teams played in same way due to Barcelona holding on to that possesion. Just because it wasn't tiki taka didn't mean Barcelona suddenly gave all that possesion away.
Sure the way Enrique played was different to Pep, but that team had the possesion players from the previous era able to keep the La masia type football that had gone and achieved the understanding in modern football through Pep Guardiola.
- I even so this under Koeman. Koemans last game before the sack vs Rayo Vallecano - Barcelona lost 1-0 but they managed to have a 69% possesion in that game. The match in January vs the same team in the Copa - Barcelona had 70% possesion.
- Enriques last game vs Alves had 73% possesion.
- Valverde's last game vs Atl Madrid had 73% posession too.
It's not like Enrique's and other managers had Barcelona played like Jose Mourinho or Zidane's tactics did they? They were still able to hold on to possesion and as usual, the way Barcelona played to take on a relatively one type of football in La Liga (arguably most different was Atheltico Madrid and Real Madrid depending on the manager)
And this is a personal opinion that you will 100% disagree with but I will say it anyway:
Barcelona that lost that possesion football bit by bit went down a level bit by bit too.
Xavi went. Barcelona got weaker.
Iniesta went. Barcelona got weaker.
Busquets and pique is the only one still there, arguably the least influential on the ball ability out of all 3.
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They lost world class players and replaced them with expensive flops. Its not surprising their level went down.
Ronaldo has double….DOUBLE the KO round goals of Messi.
He is very much the greatest ever player of the CL.
For me Messi is just looking more like the National team version of Lionel Messi playing for Argentina than the one that played for Barcelona.
It's why some of us always questioned Messi's ability to play outside La Liga or Barcelona - it's because :
A) he didn't do it
B) La Liga sticks to a type of football that always played against Barcelona (compared to City's & Arsenal's possesion football, the counterattack & never give up philosophy of United, Chelsea chaging their ethos per every 2 year manager from Jose parking the bus to managers like conte and Tuchel, the gegen pressing of Klopp or the tactics of Rodgers or Benitez or one of the most famous tactical teams of the PL - Stoke City, a type of football that required you to play a different way when playing against such teams that you could argue includes teams like Bolton or Sam allardyce teams.
C) Playing most of your life WITH Barcelona football team. No one can argue that Messi was their best ever player - but ultimately for the most of us, Messi was not required to play Possesion Football to the level Pep got Barcelona playing at. This was primarily shown by Spain National Team winning World Cups and euro's playing possesion football that was 99% similar to how Barcelona played in La Liga or the CL. Spain National team could do it WITHOUT Messi because they had the building blocks of the Pep possesion team (Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Puyol, Pique, Valdes, Alba, Pedro, David Villa and so many more). Messi was not required to play Possesion football - he was the cherry on top of the cake that made the goalscoring aspect of Barcelona go up another level. We saw this again with Spain National team- the team was playing almost 99% to Barcelona FC; but what did Spain lack? The ability of a forward like Messi to finish those chances or even create another level of chances in the front line for the best group possesion based players ever. Messi was great, but him and his technique made Barcelona almost impossible to beat - rather than exactly being the player that built Barcelona's playstyle which had been seen at Spanish National team and even seen in shorter levels under other managers of Barcelona after Pep left Barcelona. Messi loved playing within the style of Football that is seen in Barcelona - because he always seemed liked the Cherry on top of the cake of possesion football.
D) No one is saying that Messi is not a great of the sport that shouldnt be talked about on GOAT levels - but ultimately to some people there was a difference with the Messi we saw playing for Argentina than the Messi playing for Spain National team.. I mean Barcelona. If he could play like he did for Barcelona for any other team in the world - he would be called the greatest. He hasn't done it at PSG, he was great for Argentina but a level below Barcelona levels which was then blamed on the rest of the Argentina team not being good enough.
Vs Ronaldo
1) Then you look at the consistency of C Ronaldo. Put him in any club and in any League and he would perform the the same exact level he always did. Be it for the Portuguese league with sporting, United at EPL, Real Madrid at La Liga, Juventus at Serie A or the Portugal national team when playing International football. His superman jumps, his headers, his shooting, his free kicks, his dribbling, his long shots or his predatory close range finishes.
2) It was not even the clubs he played for- what tactics were he playing with? SAF'S tactics, Mourinho's tactics, Zidane's tactics, Benitez, Ancelotti, Pirlo, Allegri, Sarri, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, Carrick, the Portugal National team - I can't even describe the differences between these managers - some extremely attacking, some extremely defensive, some no tactics at all and some just pure shite like Pirlo or Ole - but Ronaldo can just perform and perform with consistency
3) The teams he played against - whilst playing FOR teams with such a variety of tactics, he performed against the variety of tactics seen by the clubs of the PL, the tactical aspects of La Liga, Serie A, Portuguese league and the National team - all without playing all his life mostly in a possesion based team, it was always playing with different tactics playing VS different tactics.
4) Ronaldo is now older and is doing it in a harder league than League 1. Ronaldo can do it with anyone, at any time, at any league, under any manager be it great, average or poor management against any team that played any and all different types of tactics against him. Just a level of consistency that he wanted to keep and wanted to prove that he was the GOAT and to many of us he succeeded.
You are comparing Messi vs Ronaldo like one would compare Van Nistelrooy vs Shevchenko. All these players are strikers other than Messi. Messi is not a striker, Ronaldo is and he has evolved into a penalty box poacher mostly. Most your above analysis is meaningless because Messi is a player that does all on the pitch: world-class playmaking, dribbling, and goalscoring whereas Ronaldo can only rival Messi in terms of goalscoring. What is expected from Messi and his responsibilities on the pitch are not the same as what is expected from Ronaldo which is basically only goalscoring as he is not able to run the game or dribble past players or deliver amazing passes on a consistent basis. Many people think he is a very stat oriented selfish player concerned with his own stats more than team's success. All the teams Ronaldo played for focuses on providing him exceptional service even at the expense of other players' individual performance like Dybala, Benzema, Bruno Fernandes etc., you have to provide him service and make him the focal point of your attack so that he can perform/score goals regardless of the coach he is working under.
A lot of Juve fans will disagree with you that Ronaldo was great in Serie A, he was not. He scored 101 goals playing for the best team of that league, 30 of them are penalties, like one third of all his goals, he spent three seasons in Turin, it is like he scored only penalties in one full season out of three. This is a league where players like Quagliarella at 38 or Immobile won Capocannoniere over Ronaldo..His free-kick stats were really bad, 1 goal out of 72 attempts and he never gave up trying..
At current United, he has scored a single goal in the last 7 PL games, and his record has traditionally been poor against big six.
Also, as someone mentioned above, it is crazy to think that Messi played under the same system in all these years at Barca. If you think Valverde's system is the same as Guardiola's possession based system, then I think you should do some serious research..
Goals are the cherry on the cake for Messi while they are everything for Ronaldo as he lacks world-class playmaking, dribbling abilities. Ronaldo is a striker and Messi is not.
Peak Messi>>>Peak Ronaldo in CL, easily.
Heading.
Valverde's last game was a 73% possesion game.
Benefits to Messi. Cherry on top of a cake.
I don't agree with him here, but I think Bebestation shows that there's more to football than this tribal fandom of pro-Messi or pro-Ronaldo. If you're looking at this objectively, it's not necessarily polar opposite opinions to see 36-year-old Ronaldo as a complete tactical problem and hindering a team in where he is currently playing, but also see Ronaldo in the middle of the last decade as one of the greatest players ever and a menace at his peak.
Giggs used to wreck my head as a midfielder for United in his late 30s when he used to give away the ball constantly, but it didn't mean I didn't still think he was one of the best wingers of the 1990s. You could think Buffon was a liability for Juventus in his later years, while also thinking he was the best goalkeeper ever etc. But unfortunately the Messi-Ronaldo debate is framed like if you've staked a side of being pro-Messi or pro-Ronaldo, you're obliged to support everything they do without question.
I agree, Messi has played in Barcelona for 18-20 years, so of course he'd be use to that style. My disagreement is that fact that you believe that Messi can't adjust to different styles, when the reason is down to coaching as I mention.
Have Barcelona played like Jose Mourinho or Zidane's tactics? No, because Barcelona didn't have that level of a coach to begin with outside of Pep and maybe Enrique were Messi was more successful. Would you compare EV, Setien, Koeman and Tata to Mou and Zidane level? I think manager like Prime Mou, Zidane, Ancelotti and Fergie would find ways or make adjustments for Messi work in their tactics/styles like they did with Ronaldo.
Under Mou Ronaldo was great, but when it came to the big games was criticized a lot. I still remember people around that time use to call him a big game flop, he scored a lot, but whenever it came to big teams he would struggle, was it because he was a big game flop? No it was because Mou parked the bus whenever he met big teams, which resulted in less chances for Ronaldo hence at times he didn't score in those games. A manager can negativity and positively impact players, Ronaldo career being revovled around mostly world class manager for me always gave him the edge in terms of adaptation and performances. Ronaldo with coaches like Sarri, Pirlo and Ole isn't able to do much, but Messi was surrounded with this level of coaching most his career, which people don't acknowledge.
Santos (Portugal coach) gets sh!t on for how you use that talented squad by Ronaldo fans, but same people act like Argentina problems are Messi, not the fact Argentina coaches can't get the best out of their talented players, both sides show double standards. Same Ronaldo fans think Ronaldo would've won a WC with Argentina. Portugal have a better squad overall then any Argentina team in the last decade currently if Ronaldo struggling to qualify with them to the WC, yet Ronaldo fans believe he's winning a WC with Argentina
Lampard changed his opinion.
I just can’t agree with that. Any striker who scored 10 goals 2 assists in 14 games (most of them are crucial decisive goals or assist), in a disjointed team which has no system of pressing anyway, can’t really be fully blamed for his lack of pressing and the team’s leaky defence. Its not about being objective or not, as striker role it just doesn’t make any sense, and this doesn’t apply to any striker before him anyway.
Not replying the question? So hard for you to admit it isn’t it?
Let me spell it out for you again. In their 3 KO rounds against each other, Messi scored 3 goals including a solo run, your so called “undisputed” most dominant blah blah blah did jack. He did scored 2 goals against this mental midget in the CL though, both in the group stages and both were penalties. Such clutchness.
Put in simply, your “undisputed” blah blah blah was undisputed until he faced the mental midget, where he got owned. Don’t fight it, admit it, accept it, its all in record. Your “undisputed” boy got owned in KO heads to heads. Undisputed indeed.
Did your dad just beat you at Mario Golf or something?
Did yours? Great inputs in this topic though, I applaud you
Always knew Fwank was a sound lad. Extremely intelligent too, obviously.
This thread gets weirder and weirder. A Fiorentina fans is now bashing Ronaldo while using a weird H2H argument because it suits his argument when the CL is so much more than that.
Not bashing, just saying its not that “undisputed” or “clutch” as one claimed. Its weirder that no one addressed that point, rather they came at me using dad jokes and “suits his argument” argument while addressing nothing else
No adresses it because this ain't a boxing fight. H2H in football is really stupid because it removes a lot of context out of the way (the teams at the time, the coaches etc etc..). It represents such a small sample in terms of matches played in their entire CL careers.
It's reallt stupid to focus on it and conveniently forgot about the rest
Yeah, I agree, I have no idea where this undisputed clutch argument comes from. Ronaldo is nowhere near for example Gerd Muller in terms of big finals performance, just no comparison.. Yet, we never hear about Muller..
Ronaldo frequently disappeared in the biggest finals in his career including CL finals and had to be bailed out multiple times by Bale or Ramos. He did not even play more than 15-20 minutes in the biggest game of his international career in 2016 Euros against France (due to injury of course). I guess scoring a late winner against Ireland, Villareal or Atalanta makes him the most clutch player in the eyes of his fans.. His record vs big six in PL has been and continues to be poor, you would expect "the most clutch player ever" to frequently show his magic against Liverpool, Chelsea, City etc. but that very rarely happens..
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But there are other clutch moments from Ronaldo. Does it not count if it's not in finals. If finals only matter then Didier Drogba should be more highly regarded.
Bloody hell. You guys will never agree. Move on.
Of course, Gringo, Ronaldo has clutch moments, it would be stupid to claim otherwise as he is one of the best players ever but so does many other top players such as Maradona, Messi, Zidane, Van Basten, Muller, Ronaldo (the Brazilian), Romario, Pele etc. However, saying Ronaldo is a clutch player is very different from saying that Ronaldo is the most (undisputed) clutch player ever. That's simply not true. People seem to like exaggerating their favorite players' attributes a lot especially after a good game, that's the main issue here.
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Yep, Messi for example has scored key goals in two CL finals, and scored 3 of the best CL goals you’ll see in semi-finals. He’s decided two Copa del Rey finals with wonder goals. But people will call him weak mentally compared to Ronaldo for some reason. Messi is one of the strongest players mentally of his generation too.
Messi is going to win the Balon D'or just for his performances at Barcelona last year.
Few months later he has apparently gotten too old to play in ligue 1 for PSG
Wasn't old enough for Barcelona but got Old enough for PSG.
Just an excuse - ultimately people could see that Messi couldn't do it to the same standard as he did it for Barcelona.
If Messi performed like his Argentina National team level for another club he would still be one of the best players ever - but he wouldn't be talked about as this undisputed GOAT.
The reason he is called the GOAT is because of how he performed for Barcelona and only Barcelona and only the La Liga and watching how Barcelona played and had 70%possesion in matches for Pep, Enrique, Valdervde and Koeman shows that the game is built to a certain way at that club and it was a type of football that always benefits Messi.
Look at Xavi - Both his first la liga & first CL game had 66% possesion football
That's insane, no matter the manager Barcelona played a style of football that is always there. Messi was the cherry on top of the cake - but the basics of the cake is always there at Barcelona.
It's why we wanted to see Messi at another club to see if he could do it away from these 70% possesion matches. The one time he did move to PSG he is looking like a shadow of his former self.
The other proof is -
Has anyone noticed how people talk about how deadly C Ronaldo would be if he played for Manchester City?
Because ultimately Ronaldo for a Pep team with such chances created and possesion would just be the cherry on top of the cake rather than the player needed to build City's/Pep's possesion team.
Ronaldo has done it to a next level from Ole's tactics, to Pirlo's, to Ancelotti's to Zidanes, to Benitez's to Querioz's to some other assistant manager to Mourinho to SAF to the top 3 leagues in the world - playing in the toughest league at the age of 37 that has managers like Pep, Klopp, Tuchel and Conte just to name the quality of the league.
Anyway, no one is going to change their mind.
Few months later he has apparently gotten too old to play in ligue 1 for PSG
Wasn't old enough for Barcelona but got Old enough for PSG.
Just an excuse - ultimately people could see that Messi couldn't do it to the same standard as he did it for Barcelona.
If Messi performed like his Argentina National team level for another club he would still be one of the best players ever - but he wouldn't be talked about as this undisputed GOAT.
The reason he is called the GOAT is because of how he performed for Barcelona and only Barcelona and only the La Liga and watching how Barcelona played and had 70%possesion in matches for Pep, Enrique, Valdervde and Koeman shows that the game is built to a certain way at that club and it was a type of football that always benefits Messi.
Look at Xavi - Both his first la liga & first CL game had 66% possesion football
That's insane, no matter the manager Barcelona played a style of football that is always there. Messi was the cherry on top of the cake - but the basics of the cake is always there at Barcelona.
It's why we wanted to see Messi at another club to see if he could do it away from these 70% possesion matches. The one time he did move to PSG he is looking like a shadow of his former self.
The other proof is -
Has anyone noticed how people talk about how deadly C Ronaldo would be if he played for Manchester City?
Because ultimately Ronaldo for a Pep team with such chances created and possesion would just be the cherry on top of the cake rather than the player needed to build City's/Pep's possesion team.
Ronaldo has done it to a next level from Ole's tactics, to Pirlo's, to Ancelotti's to Zidanes, to Benitez's to Querioz's to some other assistant manager to Mourinho to SAF to the top 3 leagues in the world - playing in the toughest league at the age of 37 that has managers like Pep, Klopp, Tuchel and Conte just to name the quality of the league.
Anyway, no one is going to change their mind.
Utter nonsense
Cristiano Ronaldo holds the record for most goals scored in final matches of the UEFA Champions League, with a total of four final goals throughout his career for Manchester United and Real Madrid.
seems if Messi could drag his teams to more CL finals instead of disappearing in quarters and semis then more teammates could score in finals as well.
Just the 20 goals and 2 assists in 29 club finals. No biggie for Ronaldo.
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