Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[RedRonaldo]

As if he would say no to PSG)) Checking Juve forums, it seems like Mendes was actively looking for a top team for Ronaldo all summer getting zero interest from Real, PSG, Chelsea etc.. He was not even a priority for City. City seems to have begun considering him after Kane rejection as a last minute option, it's what it is, a last-minute option....

It is funny that nobody is interested in explaining why he all of a sudden decided to leave Juve before his contract ended.. what happened to his famous professionalism & commitment leaving Juve very little time to look for a replacement? The guy is a serial opportunist. He decided to leave Juve in the last minute (after finally finding an exit opportunity) due to his dramatic CL & Serie A failures and probably due to Messi's transfer to PSG which must be very hard to digest for him along with Messi's upcoming 7th Ballon D'or.. The guy always looks for upgrades (United finished 2nd in PL last season) jumping from one ship to another that looks more promising and then leaves it to his “highly effective” PR machine to develop the narrative that he is going for a "new challenge")). As best upgrades have zero interest in him this summer, now the next thing to promote is his return to United due to his loyalty and that United is an inferior side)).. That’s how you develop another “new challenge” narrative considering his current situation.. You see how his PR team all of a sudden started talking about the merits of loyalty etc. when for years they have been accusing Messi of not leaving Barca...People consider players like Maldini, Baresi, Gerrard, Scholes,Totti, Xavi, Messi or Riquelme (due to his love for Boca) loyal and definitely not opportunists like Ronaldo) But, you’ll see the PR machine developing even more BS arguments as usual in the near future emphasizing how loyal Ronaldo is choosing United over City (as if he has another choice), how his heart has always been with United completely ignoring his Real transfer dramas, ethics linked to PSG owners (again as if he would say no to PSG if they gave him an offer) and how important that is for his standing in the football world..

As for Messi going to France where he's guaranteed silverware, your boy did exactly the same going to Juve where he's guaranteed to win silverware, yet with him, Juve had the worst season in the last 10 years just last year) PSG’s domination of the French league does not even come close to Juve’s recent domination of Serie A..

The real league challenge for Ronaldo was dominating La Liga when La Liga was the best in the world, and he failed miserably winning 2 in 9 years vs Messi's 6..He was chosen the best player only once in 9 seasons in the best league of the world vs Messi’s 6 meaning he failed miserably.. If anything, now he has another opportunity to prove himself in the current best league, the PL, and make up for his La Liga (which was then the best league in the world) misery..

As for Messi, it should be obvious to everyone at this point that the only thing Messi cares about at this stage is having another strong run at the CL and another final run with Argentina in the WC. I do not think that he cares about a French league title.. After all, he has been the king of La Liga, the best league in the world, for so long that league titles do not mean much to him...

Finally. Messi would still be called a total failure this season if he cannot win the CL but wins the French league.. If he wins the CL, then the argument would be “well, of course, he should easily win with a team like PSG”. Yet, when it comes to Ronaldo, if he can’t win CL or PL or even FA Cup, that’s all normal, not his fault as United is an “inferior” side) Get ready guys, that would be the BS argument (part of the new PR promotion along with the loyalty BS) that Ronaldo PR machine would make in case of a likely failure judging by his recent Juve adventure.. Now, you can clearly see which player is in a more challenging situation…

1. Messi fails to win the league and CL last season too, and then went to PSG. In fact, Ronaldo wins more silverware (5 trophies at Juventus) than Messi (3 trophies at Barca) over past 3 seasons.

2. If we use 10 years as base, PSG has won 27 trophies from 2011-2021, prior to Messi joining them. Juventus has won 14 trophies from 2008-2018 prior to Ronaldo joining them. After Ronaldo joined, he won 5 trophies in 3 years for them from 2018-2021. PSG does guarantee far more trophies than Juventus. And Ronaldo did help Juventus won more trophies (avg 1.67 per year) if compared to 10 years prior (avg 1.4 per year)

3. French league was ranked at 6th when Messi joined them, Serie A was ranked as 3rd when Ronaldo joined them. Messi did go to far easier league in far dominate side. Which means, he probably has to win CL to be considered success, otherwise its just like going to MLS.

4. Also, PL was ranked as 1st when Ronaldo joined Man Utd. Man Utd hasn't won't a league title for 8 years, nor a single trophy for 4 years. Which means, he will probably have to win a trophy to be considered fairly success, or a league title to be considered success.

 

[Pronewbie]

messi is getting a lot of stick for signing for psg but there is a lot of wisdom in joining a club that allows you to go and bang your sister every year at christmas time. when you’ve already won everything at club level sometimes the juiciest prizes lay outside of the game.

Just that he’d have to wait his turn

What mentality are you talking about?
Where was Ronaldo's winning mentality in La Liga, the best league in the world then, winning 2 titles in 9 years vs Messi's 6? What kind of mentality is this bringing him one La Liga best player award in 9 years (the same number as Griezmann) vs Messi's 6 again in 9 years? Where was his mentality in CL with Juve (a team that played two CL finals in 3 years)losing against Porto, Ajax etc? What happened to his mentality in CL finals in 2014, 2016, and 2018 appearing as a ghost, always had to be saved by Ramos and Bale. As for their international careers, let me know what you think of his mentality considering the fact that his Portugal could not even go beyond the group stage in WC 2014 under the mighty USA . lost to Uruguay in 2018 as Euro winners, could not even go beyond the 2nd round in this Euro with a superior Portugal team. The guy was not even chosen a best player in an international tournament vs Messi's 3 (including World Cup)... so much mentality.....He was not even a part of the official best 11 of this EC despite scoring 5 goals for obvious reasons including 3 of them being penalty goals and the rest tap-ins.

Ronaldo lacks the ability to create, he needs to be spoon fed regularly to contribute therefore he does not impress most when watching unlike wizards like Cruyff, Messi, Zidane, Maradona, Ronaldinho etc.. That;s why, for most unlike Ronaldo fans, this is no debate..

You've conflated ability and mentality.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Since fans decided who is better I think nothing Ronaldo or Messi has done has been enough to change anybody opinion. But I feel like this move and these last years has opened an opportunity for fans of both sides to change their opinion or accept defeat depending on how both players do .

I think the only thing that can make at least some Ronaldo fans to change their opinion or accept defeat is if Messi plays well for Psg and they win the CL and also if Argentina wins the world cup with Ronaldo flopping here

And the only thing that can make at least some Messi fans to change their opinion or accept defeat is if Messi flops at Psg and no worldcup for Argentina while Ronaldo wins us the league or cl

These are difficult conditions to meet and if none of this happens then then I'm certain the debate will still be just as subjective we when it started

 

[Tiber]

Ronaldo is my favourite player of all time, I am absolutely buzzing that he is home. But god the Messi v Ronaldo cults on Twitter are boring the tits off me already

 

[Zehner]

Since fans decided who is better I think nothing Ronaldo or Messi has done has been enough to change anybody opinion. But I feel like this move and these last years has opened an opportunity for fans of both sides to change their opinion or accept defeat depending on how both players do .

I think the only thing that can make at least some Ronaldo fans to change their opinion or accept defeat is if Messi plays well for Psg and they win the CL and also if Argentina wins the world cup with Ronaldo flopping here

And the only thing that can make at least some Messi fans to change their opinion or accept defeat is if Messi flops at Psg and no worldcup for Argentina while Ronaldo wins us the league or cl

These are difficult conditions to meet and if none of this happens then then I'm certain the debate will still be just as subjective we when it started

I think you misunderstand why people prefer Messi. It has nothing to do with trophies or team accomplishments so those won't change a thing. What would change my mind is Ronaldo suddenly playing better football than Messi has been and IMO that hasn't been the case at any point in time after Messi's breakthrough.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Well if you insist to use Pele to compare, very few could agree or disagree with you here, as most wasn't old enough witness his football week in week out like we do for modern players. There's no common ground to have detail in depth comparison, which means he may or may not be better in all areas, but you can't just compare fully players on limited footage with 90 mins week-in week-out football to give anything conclusive, unless the gap is so obvious.

Over half his career was not recorded but there’s plenty of footage, you just have to watch it. Pele was more skilful, a better passer, better with his weak foot (though CR is good with his left as well), a better dribbler, a better natural athlete, as good in the air despite being much shorter and had a much higher football IQ.

But I wouldn't give much weight to those 1300 goals as you do, as many of them are unofficial goals in club friendlies, or at regional level. If you insist to count those whatsoever, you'd be surprise to find there were numbers of little known player who scored far more Pele in the list.

He holds a Guiness World Record. Why?

https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/most-career-goals-(football)

Also, Pele is a forward, in an era where many teams play a 424 attacking formation, he is not really an attacking midfielder in modern football sense, but more like a no.10 forward. Whereas Ronaldo starts his career as midfield winger (442), later moves to play as wing forward (433) for majority of his peak, and finally moves to no.9 position when he is approaching mid 30s (at the age where Pele already retired). Which means Pele was in relatively more advance position on the pitch for larger part of his career than Ronaldo, but maybe once they approach 30s, Ronaldo turns into poacher and become playing at more advance position.

You’re wrong. Watching the Pele matches that we have available would help with this. He played in a deeper position than Ronaldo for most of his career and actually went further away from the goal as opposed to closer when he got older.

Anyway here's the most common ranking of top goalscorer, namely:
- only top level (most relevant one)
- including regional/reserve/youth level (irrelevant one)
- including unofficial friendlies in regional/reserve/youth level (most irrelevant one)

Ranking of official goals at top level: (most relevant ranking)

1. Ronaldo - 783+ goals
2. Pele - 765 goals
3. Romario - 753 goals
4. Messi - 748+ goals
5. Puskas - 729 goals

Ranking of official goals including regional/reserve/youth level: (irrelevant ranking)

1. Helmchen - 982 goals
2. Bican - 948 goals
3. Rooke - 886 goals
4. Puskas - 806 golas
5. Ronaldo - 801+ goals

Ranking of all goals including unofficial friendlies, and regional/reserve/youth level (most irrelevant ranking)

1. Tichy - 1912 goals
2. Bican - 1812 goals
3. Helmchen - 1612 goals
4. Puskas - 1571 goals
5. Muller - 1483 goals
6. Bene - 1412 goals
7. Deak - 1370 goals
8. Pele - 1303 goals

Source?

 

[kc7]

1. Messi fails to win the league and CL last season too, and then went to PSG. In fact, Ronaldo wins more silverware (5 trophies at Juventus) than Messi (3 trophies at Barca) over past 3 seasons.

2. If we use 10 years as base, PSG has won 27 trophies from 2011-2021, prior to Messi joining them. Juventus has won 14 trophies from 2008-2018 prior to Ronaldo joining them. After Ronaldo joined, he won 5 trophies in 3 years for them from 2018-2021. PSG does guarantee far more trophies than Juventus. And Ronaldo did help Juventus won more trophies (avg 1.67 per year) if compared to 10 years prior (avg 1.4 per year)

3. French league was ranked at 6th when Messi joined them, Serie A was ranked as 3rd when Ronaldo joined them. Messi did go to far easier league in far dominate side. Which means, he probably has to win CL to be considered success, otherwise its just like going to MLS.

4. Also, PL was ranked as 1st when Ronaldo joined Man Utd. Man Utd hasn't won't a league title for 8 years, nor a single trophy for 4 years. Which means, he will probably have to win a trophy to be considered fairly success, or a league title to be considered success.

1. Yet, only one (Messi) would get the Ballon D’or in a season where his team was not a CL or league winner. That tells you everything you need to know about how the football world views Messi, Ronaldo, La Liga, Serie A etc. and how they perceive Messi's impact even when Barca is not winning the CL and La Liga.. And let me tell you, it definitely is not about just goals, penalties, or tap-ins.. Messi was the top favorite Ballon D’or candidate along with Lewandowski even before his COPA win whereas Ronaldo has not even been a part of the conversation.

2. Juve won Serie A 8 times in a row prior to Ronaldo’s arrival. PSG lost the title last year prior to Messi’s arrival. In the last 5 years, PSG lost the title twice winning 3 out of 5 whereas that number was 5 out 5 for Juve before Ronaldo’s arrival. As I previously mentioned, a Serie A title with Juve means little in their most dominating period just like a Ligue 1 title with PSG despite them losing it twice in the last 5 years hence Messi’s performance would purely be evaluated on his CL performance this year..

3. Yet, that Juve, the top team from "superior" Serie A has managed to consistently lose in CL to teams from inferior leagues such as Portuguese (vs Porto), Dutch (vs Ajax), and French (vs Lyon) leagues. Hell, Lyon was not even the top team in France at that time. How do you explain that?

4.You are conveniently ignoring the fact that Ronaldo is joining the strongest Man United of the last 8 years. The team finished PL as second last year and got significantly strengthened with the arrivals of Varane, Sancho etc. United is definitely one of the favorites to win the PL this season with their squad. Anything below 2nd position in PL is a failure for United though expectations are lower in CL.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

I think you misunderstand why people prefer Messi. It has nothing to do with trophies or team accomplishments so those won't change a thing. What would change my mind is Ronaldo suddenly playing better football than Messi has been and IMO that hasn't been the case at any point in time after Messi's breakthrough.

This is about the crux of it. There’s a reason Cruyff is often included in the conversation, not Gerd Muller, despite the latter being a damn fine footballer himself. And if we just go by personal accolades then Maradona wouldn’t be anywhere the status he enjoyed.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Over half his career was not recorded but there’s plenty of footage, you just have to watch it. Pele was more skilful, a better passer, better with his weak foot (though CR is good with his left as well), a better dribbler, a better natural athlete, as good in the air despite being much shorter and had a much higher football IQ.



He holds a Guiness World Record. Why?

https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/most-career-goals-(football)




You’re wrong. Watching the Pele matches that we have available would help with this. He played in a deeper position than Ronaldo for most of his career and actually went further away from the goal as opposed to closer when he got older.



Source?

I've watched alot of footage of Pele and was very impressed, he is definitely ahead of his time. But then when I also watch the footage of Ronaldo I am equally impressed too. Its just abit different from watching footage vs following 90 mins week in week out for 10+ years, footage doesn't shows the weakness.

Guiness World Record is just a certifying body to certify a record, Pele submitted his records, certified by Guiness, and the record is his. In fact he only ranked 8th under RSSSF record (under criteria of all goals scored including unofficial friendlies etc). If the other 7 players submitted their record to get the certification, the record would probably become theirs I assume.

Anyway, here's the source of top scorer based on "top levels" "plus regional level", and "plus unofficial friendlies + regional level":

First table shows the official goals scored in top level, 2nd table shows the official scored in all levels (including regional/reserve/youth):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_footballers_with_500_or_more_goals

Various tables shows the official goals scored in all levels (including regional/reserve/youth), all goals scored in all levels (including unofficial), and official goals scored in top level
http://www.rsssf.com/players/prolific.html

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

I think you misunderstand why people prefer Messi. It has nothing to do with trophies or team accomplishments so those won't change a thing. What would change my mind is Ronaldo suddenly playing better football than Messi has been and IMO that hasn't been the case at any point in time after Messi's breakthrough.

Thats true. A bulk of Ronaldos arguments is about how he has done it in different leagues and is a mentality monster and not much actually talks about his ability on the pitch compared to Messi. I don't think many can change their minds but if at least one person does then I think what I said in my previous post is the only way

 

[NasirTimothy]

Let’s dive deeper into your statement and compare the headline figures (35 vs 30 trophies) Wouldn’t you say that being part of an amazing team that revolutionised modern football at the start of your senior career (17) is a great head-start?

Ronnie was part of a weak Sporting team and joined us at the age of 18 when we were rebuilding our team.

Similarly, I expect Messi’s numbers to grow with PSG compared to Ronaldo with us. Therefore, considering the nuances, I consider them pretty much equal in that respect.

Since both were key to their club’s dominance, the glaring difference is their performances at International level, where they didn’t have super teams built around them in their prime. One could even argue that Messi was in the stronger team too. Here, Ronaldo’s mental attributes shine brighter.

Note that I’m focusing here on the mental side of things. They’re both at incredible levels but for me this is an area Ronaldo has demonstrated a higher level.

At international level, Messi has won the best player award at every tournament he has ever taken part in at least once. U20 WC, Olympics, World Cup and Copa America. Ronaldo has never won the best player award at any tournament ever. So I’m not sure what you mean here about mentality.

 

[bosnian_red]

I've been pretty consistent with my thought. Messi is the most talented player of all time and his peak was the best player ever seen. Ronaldo is up there, but didn't reach those heights. Ronaldo though is probably the "greatest" with everything he's achieved. It's 2 different things. Ronaldo has set so many records in important stages of the Champions League, the international scoring record, winning the euros with Portugal (which to me is way more meaningful than the Copa America which feels like a joke half the time), the 5 CL titles, and how many big moments he just steps up in. Messi winning the world cup would be the only thing to swing the greatness factor back to him IMO, but generally they are 1 and 2 for that anyway. There's nothing Ronaldo can do to make him more talented or surpass the peak level that Messi showed though.

So if you're asking me who the best player of all time is, it's Messi. Who is the "greatest", it'd be Ronaldo shading it.

 

[Pronewbie]

At international level, Messi has won the best player award at every tournament he has ever taken part in at least once. U20 WC, Olympics, World Cup and Copa America. Ronaldo has never won the best player award at any tournament ever. So I’m not sure what you mean here about mentality.

Again, conflating ability with mentality.

 

[RedRonaldo]

1. Yet, only one (Messi) would get the Ballon D’or in a season where his team was not a CL or league winner. That tells you everything you need to know about how the football world views Messi, Ronaldo, La Liga, Serie A etc. and how they perceive Messi's impact even when Barca is not winning the CL and La Liga.. And let me tell you, it definitely is not about just goals, penalties, or tap-ins.. Messi was the top favorite Ballon D’or candidate along with Lewandowski even before his COPA win whereas Ronaldo has not even been a part of the conversation.

2. Juve won Serie A 8 times in a row prior to Ronaldo’s arrival. PSG lost the title last year prior to Messi’s arrival. In the last 5 years, PSG lost the title twice winning 3 out of 5 whereas that number was 5 out 5 for Juve before Ronaldo’s arrival. As I previously mentioned, a Serie A title with Juve means little in their most dominating period just like a Ligue 1 title with PSG despite them losing it twice in the last 5 years hence Messi’s performance would purely be evaluated on his CL performance this year..

3. Yet, that Juve, the top team from "superior" Serie A has managed to consistently lose in CL to teams from inferior leagues such as Portuguese (vs Porto), Dutch (vs Ajax), and French (vs Lyon) leagues. Hell, Lyon was not even the top team in France at that time. How do you explain that?

4.You are conveniently ignoring the fact that Ronaldo is joining the strongest Man United of the last 8 years. The team finished PL as second last year and got significantly strengthened with the arrivals of Varane, Sancho etc. United is definitely one of the favorites to win the PL this season with their squad. Anything below 2nd position in PL is a failure for United though expectations are lower in CL.

1. If Messi won Ballon D'or this year, it is because he has won Copa. Sure he has a good season in Barca, but he failed to lead Barca to win more trophies than Ronaldo at Juventus over past 3 season, despite earning double of his wage. If Ronaldo is a failure at Juventus because he didn't win everything in sight, so is Messi at Barca over the same period.

2. Ok if you want to change to 8 years basis instead of 10: PSG has won 27 trophies from 2013-2021, prior to Messi joining. Juventus has won 13 trophies from 2010-2018, prior to Ronaldo joining.

3. Its meaningless to pick one off game to judge. Serie A is ranked as 3rd, French league is currently ranked at 6th. Its official: https://www.sofascore.com/football/rankings/uefa

4. Yet you are also conveniently ignoring the fact the Messi is going to a super team which is so far ahead of its opponents in terms of actual team strength, and probably currently the strongest side in the world too. No matter how you want to spin it, fact remain Man Utd hasn't won a single micky trophy in past 4 years.

 

[NasirTimothy]

I've watched alot of footage of Pele and was very impressed, he is definitely ahead of his time. But then when I also watch the footage of Ronaldo I am equally impressed too. Its just abit different from watching footage vs following 90 mins week in week out for 10+ years, footage doesn't shows the weakness.

It does if you watch the matches. Being able to watch every single game of a player’s career on TV is a very recent phenomenon. It shouldn’t stop us making comparisons.

Guiness World Record is just a certifying body to certify a record, Pele submitted his records, certified by Guiness, and the record is his. In fact he only ranked 8th under RSSSF record (under criteria of all goals scored including unofficial friendlies etc). If the other 7 players submitted their record to get the certification, the record would probably become theirs I assume.

Evidence that this is the reason? I’d argue that they look at levels played at and factor that in.

Anyway, here's the source of top scorer based on "top levels" "plus regional level", and "plus unofficial friendlies + regional level":

First table shows the official goals scored in top level, 2nd table shows the official scored in all levels (including regional/reserve/youth):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_footballers_with_500_or_more_goals

Various tables shows the official goals scored in all levels (including regional/reserve/youth), all goals scored in all levels (including unofficial), and official goals scored in top level
http://www.rsssf.com/players/prolific.html

Wikipedia changes all the time because anyone can edit it. The RSSSF list is more reliable, but it only includes ‘official’ goals. For Pele, the tour games and friendlies should count because the game was different back then, especially for Brazilian teams. Santos used to tour to make money because they could make more money that way than by playing in competitions. That’s why Pele only played in 3 editions of the Copa Libertadores for example. But the games were often very competitive because Santos were the best team in the world, Pele was the best player in the world and everyone wanted to beat them so that they could say that they had. Also, the games were played in front of huge crowds. It was a different football world back then.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Again, conflating ability with mentality.

This statement makes no sense

 

[NasirTimothy]

What mentality are you talking about?
Where was Ronaldo's winning mentality in La Liga, the best league in the world then, winning 2 titles in 9 years vs Messi's 6? What kind of mentality is this bringing him one La Liga best player award in 9 years (the same number as Griezmann) vs Messi's 6 again in 9 years? Where was his mentality in CL with Juve (a team that played two CL finals in 3 years)losing against Porto, Ajax etc? What happened to his mentality in CL finals in 2014, 2016, and 2018 appearing as a ghost, always had to be saved by Ramos and Bale. As for their international careers, let me know what you think of his mentality considering the fact that his Portugal could not even go beyond the group stage in WC 2014 under the mighty USA . lost to Uruguay in 2018 as Euro winners, could not even go beyond the 2nd round in this Euro with a superior Portugal team. The guy was not even chosen a best player in an international tournament vs Messi's 3 (including World Cup)... so much mentality.....He was not even a part of the official best 11 of this EC despite scoring 5 goals for obvious reasons including 3 of them being penalty goals and the rest tap-ins.

Ronaldo lacks the ability to create, he needs to be spoon fed regularly to contribute therefore he does not impress most when watching unlike wizards like Cruyff, Messi, Zidane, Maradona, Ronaldinho etc.. That;s why, for most unlike Ronaldo fans, this is no debate..

When people say ‘mentality’, what they really mean is ‘Ronaldo remonstrates and shouts more’. Because for all the claims of ‘mentality’, the quieter guy has more team and individual trophies at club and international level. I’m not sure how he managed that with such a weaker ‘mentality.’

 

[YikesSchmeics]

This statement makes no sense

He has backed himself into a corner with this ridiculous mentality argument, and is now reliant on repeatedly accusing people of "conflating ability with mentality" without presenting any further argument. In a thread full of painful arguments, it is right up there.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Wikipedia changes all the time because anyone can edit it. The RSSSF list is more reliable, but it only includes ‘official’ goals. For Pele, the tour games and friendlies should count because the game was different back then, especially for Brazilian teams. Santos used to tour to make money because they could make more money that way than by playing in competitions. That’s why Pele only played in 3 editions of the Copa Libertadores for example. But the games were often very competitive because Santos were the best team in the world, Pele was the best player in the world and everyone wanted to beat them so that they could say that they had. Also, the games were played in front of huge crowds. It was a different football world back then.

Wikipedia page is actually is based on RSSSF and IFFHS body, its actually very commonly known, doesn't really need any editing. The facts are just everywhere.

I wouldn't say games Pele had played in friendlies are in low standard. Surely there would be some really good ones against top sides, and some really bad ones against amateur/regional sides. But they are all not competitive games, they are exhibitions games in nature, maybe similar to preseason friendlies we have, and even included those the closed door ones against non-league side. There would be some games against top teams, some games again shite team. I still wouldn't count them as same weight as those competitive games in top level. Its no official, and its not competitive.

 

[Gehrman]

Well if you insist to use Pele to compare, very few could agree or disagree with you here, as most wasn't old enough witness his football week in week out like we do for modern players. There's no common ground to have detail in depth comparison, which means he may or may not be better in all areas, but you can't just compare fully players on limited footage with 90 mins week-in week-out football to give anything conclusive, unless the gap is so obvious.

But I wouldn't give much weight to those 1300 goals as you do, as many of them are unofficial goals in club friendlies, or at regional level. If you insist to count those whatsoever, you'd be surprise to find there were numbers of little known player who scored far more Pele in the list.

Also, Pele is a forward, in an era where many teams play a 424 attacking formation, he is not really an attacking midfielder in modern football sense, but more like a no.10 forward. Whereas Ronaldo starts his career as midfield winger (442), later moves to play as wing forward (433) for majority of his peak, and finally moves to no.9 position when he is approaching mid 30s (at the age where Pele already retired). Which means Pele was in relatively more advance position on the pitch for larger part of his career than Ronaldo, but maybe once they approach 30s, Ronaldo turns into poacher and become playing at more advance position.

Anyway here's the most common ranking of top goalscorer, namely:
- only top level (most relevant one)
- including regional/reserve/youth level (irrelevant one)
- including unofficial friendlies in regional/reserve/youth level (most irrelevant one)

Ranking of official goals at top level: (most relevant ranking)

1. Ronaldo - 783+ goals
2. Pele - 765 goals
3. Romario - 753 goals
4. Messi - 748+ goals
5. Puskas - 729 goals

Ranking of official goals including regional/reserve/youth level: (irrelevant ranking)

1. Helmchen - 982 goals
2. Bican - 948 goals
3. Rooke - 886 goals
4. Puskas - 806 golas
5. Ronaldo - 801+ goals

Ranking of all goals including unofficial friendlies, and regional/reserve/youth level (most irrelevant ranking)

1. Tichy - 1912 goals
2. Bican - 1812 goals
3. Helmchen - 1612 goals
4. Puskas - 1571 goals
5. Muller - 1483 goals
6. Bene - 1412 goals
7. Deak - 1370 goals
8. Pele - 1303 goals

I would agree that using pele's friendly goals is daft, but i think part of the point is that pele was complete in every way, dribbling, flair, vision, passing and creativity. There is no doubt that Ronaldo has had a overall good game in his prime, but he hasnt consistently ticked the other boxes of technical genius that the other goats have. But in a sense he hasnt had to because at especially Madrid he's had a supporting cast to do that instead.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Wikipedia page is actually is based on RSSSF and IFFHS body, its actually very commonly known, doesn't really need any editing. The facts are just everywhere.

I wouldn't say games Pele had played in friendlies are in low standard. Surely there would be some really good ones against top sides, and some really bad ones against amateur/regional sides. But they are all not competitive games, they are exhibitions games in nature, maybe similar to preseason friendlies we have, and even included those the closed door ones against non-league side. There would be some games against top teams, some games again shite team. I still wouldn't count them as same weight as those competitive games in top level. Its no official, and its not competitive.

They were competitive, do your research. it’s nothing like pre-season friendlies. Which player today has played 600 pre-season friendlies in their career? Cos that’s roughly how many of these types of games Pele played, all over the world. Saying the goals shouldn’t count is silly.

 

[kc7]

1. If Messi won Ballon D'or this year, it is because he has won Copa. Sure he has a good season in Barca, but he failed to lead Barca to win more trophies than Ronaldo at Juventus over past 3 season, despite earning double of his wage. If Ronaldo is a failure at Juventus because he didn't win everything in sight, so is Messi at Barca over the same period.

2. Ok if you want to change to 8 years basis instead of 10: PSG has won 27 trophies from 2013-2021, prior to Messi joining. Juventus has won 13 trophies from 2010-2018, prior to Ronaldo joining.

3. Its meaningless to pick one off game to judge. Serie A is ranked as 3rd, French league is currently ranked at 6th. Its official: https://www.sofascore.com/football/rankings/uefa

4. Yet you are also conveniently ignoring the fact the Messi is going to a super team which is so far ahead of its opponents in terms of actual team strength, and probably currently the strongest side in the world too. No matter how you want to spin it, fact remain Man Utd hasn't won a single micky trophy in past 4 years.

1. You stated in your May 12, 2021 (before COPA) post in the thread named "Ballon D'Or 2012: more interesting than usual?" below:
Individual:
Messi> Lewandoski> Mbappe> Ronaldo= Haaland= Kane>>>De Bruyne

which is in agreement with what most were arguing at that time (in that thread as well) that it would be between Lewandowski and Messi before COPA. With Messi's COPA win, it became like a no-brainer (in the same Ballon D'Or thread as well)..

2. Why are you not comparing league titles? Serie A vs Ligue 1 titles?

3. We are not talking about a single incident here..It's a year in year out consistent failure against teams from supposedly inferior leagues for 3 years in CL..

4. Just like Ronaldo was going to Juve , the team that played 2 CL finals in 3 years & won 8 Serie A in a row prior to his arrival.. That's superior to PSG that played only one CL final in its history let alone the last 3 years and lost two Ligue 1 titles in the last 5 years prior to Messi's arrival..

I do not need to spin anything, in my eyes PSG is stronger than Manchester Utd. It's you who is trying to pretend like United is an inferior side this year in the PL though the team finished 2nd in the PL last year and had multiple strong additions this year.. I can understand why you are doing that because in case United wins something this year, it will help your narrative that United, an "inferior side", won finally something thankss to Ronaldo, and that's a huge achievement because United as "an inferior side" was not expected to win anything and Ronaldo made all the difference))....

 

[NasirTimothy]

I would agree that using pele's friendly goals is daft, but i think part of the point is that pele was complete in every way, dribbling, flair, vision, passing and creativity. There is no doubt that Ronaldo has had a overall good game in his prime, but he hasnt consistently ticked the other boxes of technical genius that the other goats have. But in a sense he hasnt had to because at especially Madrid he's had a supporting cast to do that instead.

It’s not daft at all, it only seems so if you don’t understand the context of the times. I agree with your points about the all round ability however.

 

[Rojow]

I remember watching my first United game the day Ronaldo made his debut against Bolton. Unforgettable. And everything that happened afterwards. Now that he is back, his legendary status will be cemented regardless of what happens, but this does not blind me to seeing that Messi is and will continue to be a better football player. It is an objective fact.

In any case, CR7 will always be among the TOP11 to TOP15 in history. To enter the TOP 10, you not only need to be an excellent scorer in my opinion, you also need to be a creator of the game, with a sublime vision, with a good dribble and that does not pass by flipping every time they touch it. The latter is something that bothers me a lot about Ronaldo, he boasts of his physique, but when you see him play, he looks like a house of cards. Not to mention that most of his dribbles in recent years outside the area, are totally useless, almost always the ball goes to the side or back, never forward so that the game advances in attack.

 

[Pronewbie]

He has backed himself into a corner with this ridiculous mentality argument, and is now reliant on repeatedly accusing people of "conflating ability with mentality" without presenting any further argument. In a thread full of painful arguments, it is right up there.

It's embarrassing that your love for Messi blinds you from the facts and push you lot towards denial and personal attacks. I'm not saying anything earth-shattering. Even Maradona, his ex-manager with Argentina who knows a thing or 2 about being the Greatest has commented the same. Diego Maradona criticises Lionel Messi's leadership | Football News | Sky Sports

There's no shame in being poorer in some aspects of the game compared to Cristiano despite being the better technical footballer.. But go on, continue burying your heads in the sand. I'd certainly take Maradona's critique on Messi over yours more seriously.

 

[Gehrman]

It's embarrassing that your love for Messi blinds you from the facts and push you lot towards denial and personal attacks. I'm not saying anything earth-shattering. Even Maradona, his ex-manager with Argentina who knows a thing or 2 about being the Greatest has commented the same. Diego Maradona criticises Lionel Messi's leadership | Football News | Sky Sports

There's no shame in being poorer in some aspects of the game compared to Cristiano despite being the better technical footballer.. But go on, continue burying your heads in the sand. I'd certainly take Maradona's critique on Messi over yours more seriously.

Coke snorting and viagra snorting Maradonna and Pelé are ruled out as serious pundits.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

It's embarrassing that your love for Messi blinds you from the facts and push you lot towards denial and personal attacks. I'm not saying anything earth-shattering. Even Maradona, his ex-manager with Argentina who knows a thing or 2 about being the Greatest has commented the same. Diego Maradona criticises Lionel Messi's leadership | Football News | Sky Sports

There's no shame in being poorer in some aspects of the game compared to Cristiano despite being the better technical footballer.. But go on, continue burying your heads in the sand. I'd certainly take Maradona's critique on Messi over yours more seriously.

Now you're conflating Leadership with mentality. Also here's what Messi's current teammate has to say about if Messi is a good leader

https://amp.marca.com/en/football/spanish-football/liga/2021/08/18/611d3194e2704eba5b8b4659.html

 

[Pronewbie]

Coke snorting and viagra snorting Maradonna and Pelé are ruled out as serious pundits.

Very convenient. I've never participated in any of these GOAT debates prior to this and I see now why people have told me how turned off they are by these debates, especially their rabid fans.

 

[Paxi]

Changed my vote to Ronaldo.

 

[spaceboyRSA]

I think you misunderstand why people prefer Messi. It has nothing to do with trophies or team accomplishments so those won't change a thing. What would change my mind is Ronaldo suddenly playing better football than Messi has been and IMO that hasn't been the case at any point in time after Messi's breakthrough.

So in the seasons when Ronaldo won the ballon, he wasn’t playing better football than Messi?

 

[Gehrman]

Very convenient. I've never participated in any of these GOAT debates prior to this and I see now why people have told me how turned off they are by these debates, especially their rabid fans.

 

[Zehner]

So in the seasons when Ronaldo won the ballon, he wasn’t playing better football than Messi?

No

 

[altodevil]

No

Correct

 

[bakalhau]

I think some people forget, or just didn't plain see, which is okay, Ronaldo's footballing level in all aspects between in 2008-2014. He was literally the definition of doing everything on the pitch. His assist numbers were through the roof, only matched by the one other fella. He'd invent through balls out of nowhere, build out lightning quick counter attacks with heel flicks, one touches (in example here vs Ajax), even his goddamn chest and shoulder (compilation here, or this chest pass completely unlocking the play, before scoring himself) passes completely erasing midfield and defensive lines, scoring screamers out of nowhere to win Madrid a lot of games (case in point), etc, etc.

Any youtube compilation from him from 2008-2014 will show he did just about everything on the pitch. It's just Ronaldo has been top level for so long, that he actually won different BdOrs being 2 completely different player. His career his so long at top level, it's absolutely understandable not everyone knows how this guy dominated football 10 years ago in a completely diferent style.

 

[NasirTimothy]

It's embarrassing that your love for Messi blinds you from the facts and push you lot towards denial and personal attacks. I'm not saying anything earth-shattering. Even Maradona, his ex-manager with Argentina who knows a thing or 2 about being the Greatest has commented the same. Diego Maradona criticises Lionel Messi's leadership | Football News | Sky Sports

There's no shame in being poorer in some aspects of the game compared to Cristiano despite being the better technical footballer.. But go on, continue burying your heads in the sand. I'd certainly take Maradona's critique on Messi over yours more seriously.

The very fact that you’d take seriously anything Maradona said about Messi shows that you don’t know what you’re talking about. Much as I admire Pele, I’d ignore anything he says about Messi as well, for obvious reasons.

It’s not about ‘denial’ it’s about the objective fact that Messi has been more successful in terms of individual and team trophies despite your claim that he is less strong mentally than Ronaldo. How is this possible? Any answer like ‘better teammates’ is weak sauce, a) because Ronaldo has also had many great teammates (who he was extremely reliant on for his goals) and b) Ronaldo has had much much better coaches during his career. Why doesn’t that matter?

Messi has more goals in finals than Ronaldo. He has more career goal contributions having played 150 less games. So there is no actual evidence that he is mentally weaker than Ronaldo, that is just something you like to tell yourself for some reason or other.

 

[RedRonaldo]

I would agree that using pele's friendly goals is daft, but i think part of the point is that pele was complete in every way, dribbling, flair, vision, passing and creativity. There is no doubt that Ronaldo has had a overall good game in his prime, but he hasnt consistently ticked the other boxes of technical genius that the other goats have. But in a sense he hasnt had to because at especially Madrid he's had a supporting cast to do that instead.

I am not disagreeing with that, again I have watched alot of Pele's footage and was very impressed with his all round ability too. But I am just saying, for most of us its impossible to compare him with Ronaldo apple to apple for their in depth ability, as we didn't have the luxury to follow Pele's game week in week out for 10+ years. It just isn't the same, for example, sometimes I watch hours and hours of Ronaldo footage, he looks like a proper GOAT in about everything, even dribbling, passing and ball control too. I mean he is GOAT, but it just isn't exactly the same thing as watching him play week in week out for 15+ years. Even I've watched those 90 mins full match footbage of his best 50 games etc, chances are you only get to see his best 10/10 or 9/10 performances, you don't get to see many of those 6 or 7 in a tough day, nor do you get to see the frustrating part of his game (ie Messi disappearing or strolling around the pitch when game got tough, Ronaldo being wasteful in freekicks and not adding much in build up play etc), and you probably don't get to see the complete whole picture of Pele from those rather limited footage.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Thats true. A bulk of Ronaldos arguments is about how he has done it in different leagues and is a mentality monster and not much actually talks about his ability on the pitch compared to Messi. I don't think many can change their minds but if at least one person does then I think what I said in my previous post is the only way

I thought his ability during 06-13 was quite comparable to Messi, but unfortunately he was less successful during that period too (during Barca prime years), hence most of the discussion is based around his period from 14 onwards, and the truth is, performance wise, during that period, he just isn't quite the same level as Messi. But in terms of impact and success, he was probably better, hence the arguments.

 

[YikesSchmeics]

It's embarrassing that your love for Messi blinds you from the facts and push you lot towards denial and personal attacks. I'm not saying anything earth-shattering. Even Maradona, his ex-manager with Argentina who knows a thing or 2 about being the Greatest has commented the same. Diego Maradona criticises Lionel Messi's leadership | Football News | Sky Sports

There's no shame in being poorer in some aspects of the game compared to Cristiano despite being the better technical footballer.. But go on, continue burying your heads in the sand. I'd certainly take Maradona's critique on Messi over yours more seriously.

What denial? What personal attack? Maybe try draw some "mentality" inspiration and harden up.

You are conflating leadership with mentality, for one.

Two, Maradona has a lot of legacy in Argentina. Same way Jordan will always veil criticisms of LeBron James etc. Maradona was always going to be biased here. Rio said on one of his recent podcasts that he didnt want the new generation to do as well as him, as it could impact his legacy. I'll take Rio's opinion over yours.

That something as obvious as that even needs to be pointed out to you would make me question your own love and blindess tbh.

 

[kc7]

When people say ‘mentality’, what they really mean is ‘Ronaldo remonstrates and shouts more’. Because for all the claims of ‘mentality’, the quieter guy has more team and individual trophies at club and international level. I’m not sure how he managed that with such a weaker ‘mentality.’

Exactly.. Ronaldo fans have this mythical view on mental strength that is an indefinable, invisible quality and seems like can only be felt by them))

 

[kc7]

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