If you want to be taken seriously, please don’t say stuff like this. Maradona is not overrated and he didn’t only perform well for three seasons in his career.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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If you want to be taken seriously, please don’t say stuff like this. Maradona is not overrated and he didn’t only perform well for three seasons in his career.
And then lost to France, yes. All the while Chileans were watching from their sofas scratching their balls.
What the hell?
Messi is easily the best player the last 20 years. Some tap-ins and penaltys so that Ronaldo can match Messi goal rate does not change this at all. Messi creates more goals than Ronaldo scores and he still scores as much.
Even at a Man Utd forum Messi gets the votes as the best player. Come on you CR7 fans. Just stop it.
Messi is easily the best player the last 20 years. Some tap-ins and penaltys so that Ronaldo can match Messi goal rate does not change this at all. Messi creates more goals than Ronaldo scores and he still scores as much.
Even at a Man Utd forum Messi gets the votes as the best player. Come on you CR7 fans. Just stop it.
Speaking of Copa I never understand why they changed it to every 2 years event. It just makes the competition less prestigious to me, not to mention the South American teams hasn’t produced any WC winners for nearly 20 years. I miss those years with Brazil dominating the competitions.
There we go with the fact-twisting of the Messi brigade again, we were talking about WC qualifying and you spin it into the Euro.
There are 13 Uefa places at the WC, the Euro has 24 places.
Using ONE game that they lost to justify the quality of Peru? I presume Hungary are even better given they drew with France.
How about Argentina (with the bestest player ever ever) 1-1 Iceland (~370k population)?
or Croatia, who according to you aren't very good trashing that same Argentina 3-0?
Are you trying to make my point for me? Uefa qualifying is much tougher exactly because there's very little room for bad days.
Conmebol plays so many games that allows for multiple bad days and the better teams still make it through.
If I had to place Ronaldo in a historical context it would be somewhere between Di Stefano and Puskas. Great goalscorers with extreme longevity but also quite a bit of flair (as in contrast to say Muller). For this reason I think Ronaldo deserves a mention when talking about all time greats. How can his feats over the years not qualify for a GOAT discussion?
The typical thing would be to say Messi is closer to Maradona. He may be closer, but I still think the comparison is not completely justified. While Messi can do a lot of what Maradona could (and which Ronaldo can't), his play style is completely different. Maradona was wild, all over the place, unpredictable. He literally dragged his teams to victory by his amazing skill and workrate. Maradona was a leader.
Messi is more the best player in a stacked team. He is methodical, efficient. If the team does well he shines like no other, when they don't he has a tendency to become invisible. Calling him a fair weather player is extreme but I think there is truth to it. He lacks that Maradona skill where he can take a game by the neck and dominate.
What they both lack is personality. Messi is boring as a person. He may be "nice" but that is not what you really want in a great football star. Ronaldo is not much better. He has personality but it's a terrible one. Vain, sultry, arrogant and self absorbed.
In short they both have strengths and weaknesses in comparison to older players. They will go down as greats, but in my opinion the Pele/Maradona mantle is still secure.
The typical thing would be to say Messi is closer to Maradona. He may be closer, but I still think the comparison is not completely justified. While Messi can do a lot of what Maradona could (and which Ronaldo can't), his play style is completely different. Maradona was wild, all over the place, unpredictable. He literally dragged his teams to victory by his amazing skill and workrate. Maradona was a leader.
Messi is more the best player in a stacked team. He is methodical, efficient. If the team does well he shines like no other, when they don't he has a tendency to become invisible. Calling him a fair weather player is extreme but I think there is truth to it. He lacks that Maradona skill where he can take a game by the neck and dominate.
What they both lack is personality. Messi is boring as a person. He may be "nice" but that is not what you really want in a great football star. Ronaldo is not much better. He has personality but it's a terrible one. Vain, sultry, arrogant and self absorbed.
In short they both have strengths and weaknesses in comparison to older players. They will go down as greats, but in my opinion the Pele/Maradona mantle is still secure.
FIFA should have been sent a link to this thread, if they only knew how you melts carried on they would never allow Messi and Ronaldo to compete in different continental tournaments at the same time.
Messi is better at more things than Ronaldo. Ronaldo is only better at headers and penalties
It was for being played at the same time as Euros. Next CA will be in 2024 along with Euro Cup. Both will be played at the same time now from now on.
It's so hilarious reading his posts.. shifting goalposts at every possible opportunityWhat? France? That European team?
You can't go on about not qualifying yesteryears or only beating Columbia on pens then completely miss out the fact your precious Chile didn't even qualify for the last world cup and your precious Uruguay got knocked out in the round of 16
What? France? That European team?
You can't go on about not qualifying yesteryears or only beating Columbia on pens then completely miss out the fact your precious Chile didn't even qualify for the last world cup and your precious Uruguay got knocked out in the round of 16
I disagree with him completely but in fairness it was South American teams that knocked out euro winner Portugal (Chile, Uruguay).
Which is another flawed logic. Germany lost to Mexico and Korea? So would you base your argument based on that small sample and claim that South American or Asian teams are better than European teams?
Not really, chile and Uruguay knocked them out in a knockout tournament. And Germany in 2018 was 100% worse than Mexico. They were atrocious in that WC. This wasn’t Chile and especially not Uruguay getting jammy results, Uruguay was definitely better than Portugal in 2018.
The winner of Euro 2008 went on to win the WC and then another Euro in 2012. See I can also use examples to prove my point. Cherrypicking situations to prove relative strengths of confederations is something I wouldn't wanna do.
Near a level 1: (near top class players in most positions)
England
France
Germany
Italy
Spain
Portugal
Holland
Belgium
Near a Level 2 - (good quality players but with gaps in the team)
Croatia
Norway
Turkey
Denmark
Switzerland
Austria
Sweden
How this is comparable to copa America I have no idea.
England
France
Germany
Italy
Spain
Portugal
Holland
Belgium
Near a Level 2 - (good quality players but with gaps in the team)
Croatia
Norway
Turkey
Denmark
Switzerland
Austria
Sweden
How this is comparable to copa America I have no idea.
you’re making a very dumb argument. Uruguay were genuinely a good team. They were genuinely better than Portugal in 2018. Acting like European teams are 100 times better than South American teams is moronic. You’re acting like it was north Macedonia beating Portugal. Uruguay were genuinely the better team at the time. It’s not cherry picking, it’s facts.
On top of which I never said European teams are worse than South American ones. Obviously the best European teams are better than the best South American teams. I’m referencing the original poster who was discounting Chile and Uruguay who were genuinely really good in recent years even beating the euro champs in a knockout round (not group stage) and Chile having won the Copa America back to back years. So re-read what I was saying because you’re barking up the wrong tree here.
Chile had Sanchez, Vidal, Bravo,Medel and who else?
If you take that as one of the top 5 teams in the Copa America - compare that to Belgium’s quality, England’s quality, France’s, Germany, Holland, Italy, Spain etc.
If you take that as one of the top 5 teams in the Copa America - compare that to Belgium’s quality, England’s quality, France’s, Germany, Holland, Italy, Spain etc.
england are crap, just good players on paper, same with Spain. Holland were horrible up until this year.
Chile are on a downturn and pretty mediocre right now as well ,
but England and Spain aren’t good examples of strong NT’s with how poor they’ve looked so far.
England are crap just good players on paper - yet your telling me that Chile were a good team once
literally 3-4 good players on paper.england has more on paper anyway and always have.
England are crap just good players on paper - yet your telling me that Chile were a good team once
england has more on paper anyway and always have.
Personally I'm of the opinion that a team is often as good as the sum of it's parts. Whether there is synergy and strong tactical discipline. Obviously a team with world class players in each of the key positions is always going to have it easier, but for instance I feel my NT Denmark has often overachieved especially in recent times despite not having many class players. England often had class players on paper but is famous for underacheiving in the Euros and World Cup. I'd say that the South American teams are definitely in general a bit weaker than they used to be compared to the 90's and the early 21st century, but I think in general a lot of the teams aren't pushovers at all.
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Nice post!
I just like to add that a strong argument for your cause is that Barcelona hasn't been doing well in international competition since Xavi and Iniesta retired. (Both of them were in my opinion the main reason for Barca's dominance, see also their contribution to the La Roja).
Another thing I'd like to point out is their changed view publicly. Back in the days Messi was everybodies darling, the future leader of Club which is "more than just a club" and Ronaldo that arrogant, selfish crybaby who seemed to care more about his hairstyle than about his fellow team members.
Right now Cristano has actually become a true leader, giving his country the 1st European title a few years back. Messi though has been linked with the Panama papers. A tax fraud. An egoistic little brat who takes the glory for good games, but for bad games it's always the other fault ("In the national team he doesn't have good players around him" etc.). His 9 digit annual salary and the current financial problems add even more weight to already heavy backpack of "fallen god".
So if we take only football skills then Messi > Ronaldo.
If we take the whole package including motivation, leadership, etc. then Ronaldo >>> Messi.
Im not really sure what you meant by your post. However even though I think Messi is worth being regarded as a GOAT - the reason he is not regarded as my GOAT is because he has only ever played for a team that had great tactical discipline and synergy. Even when he broke through as a young player - the guy was playing with Ronaldinho’s, Xavi’s and Iniestas and Eto’os of the world - just such a technical group of players were always next to him. Then that technical group got rebalanced to become a tactical synergy wonder team - making United as a team look like stoke in CL finals. During that time Messi was an amazing player, but he always felt like that player that made an already great to a near perfect team impossible to beat. This was when I watched International football and got shocked at the difference between Spain National team and Argentina. It was not Argentina and Messi that was playing like Barcelona- it was Spain.
Literally that perfect team from the ball playing ability of puyols, piques, that protection of Busquets, Xavi and Iniesta playing tiki Taka Football and in particular Iniesta scoring important goals in the international stage like he did against Chelsea in the CL. I can’t remember if he played during the world cups or not but David Villa was another one of my favorite players - Barcelona and Spain seemed like nearly the same team. Messi was just the icing on the cake to me; making a near perfect team even more complicated to get a hold of because he is such a technical player.
That period left and the Spanish core of Barcelona left bit by bit and the success was dropping bit by bit too.
Now what do we have? A different bunch of players that still try to keep a strong synergy with possession nearly no matter who the manager is with a strong tactical discipline even if the manager is rubbish as koeman - they tend to consistently be able to have this synergy and tactical ability vs La Liga teams. Messi scores wonderful chip goals absolutely amazing impossible goals - yet to me he has always played behind a synergetic, tactically disciplined and creative team.
The best I can show about this is this
It’s absolutely amazing what Messi did as a finish vs Arsenal - but look at that closing down by the Barcelona team, look at that technical ability of Iniesta to get past so many players by a shift from foot to foot, look at that pass that got past so many players - Messi made a wonder team working ability even more beautiful to watch with a last bit of skill and beauty of a finish.
I just felt like he always had that to some degree as a player that always played for Barcelona- that possession, that ball on the floor type of football both in attacking terms to even the way the opposition defended, that creativity, that skill from Ronaldinhos to Iniestas, that speed of different players nearly always playing a same or similar way.
When I looked at him for Argentina - he was great but not on the same level I saw at Barcelona with that Barcelona team behind him.
It’s why I want to see him in one more league, one more team - to see how he would do under different tactics and a team that doesn’t really play as a team like Barcelona seem to be capable of to some degree or another.
What I say is not going to change anyone’s mind on Messi - it’s more just why I am a bit toned down on the Messi hype. Wonder goals but for a wonderful on the floor skillful team.
@Bebestation I was just commenting on the relative strength of the South American teams that is all.
I am not at all claiming that European teams are better than South American teams or vice versa. All I said was that it is dumb making a point that some team X beat some team Y who happened to be a Euro/Copa winner 2 years ago so team X is better. Teams change every year and they either improve or get worse. Just take a look at Croatia, the WC finalists in 2018 losing to England this year. Makes no sense.
Winning copa back to back only to not qualify for the WC speaks volumes about Chile's and South American teams' quality if you wanna go down that route but again, I am not wanting to make any judgements there.
Again, you picking knockout stages and not group stages is cherry picking and if you choose to die on that hill, be my guest.
I feel some of this is disingenous, Messi has bailed out his teams on several occasions, and Barcelona wouldn't have won 2 La liga's since Neymar left and since became more mediocre if it wasn't for Messi taking on both the creative output as well as the scoring output. When Messi won his last Ballon D'or with a mediocre Barcelona side, it was again him who was the key player in winning La liga and getting to the semis and it was not his fault that his defense shat themselves again. Overall I agree though that Peak Maradonna had more leadership, but Maradonna's peak was much shorter lived. With Messi and Ronaldo there is an expectation that they keep on delivering even after a decade of being the best in the world. The main reason Barcelona managed to be in the title race this season untill the last few games was because of Messi's 2021 form. Kind of my point is, I agree that peak Maradonna was a greater leader, but I can remember Messi bailing out his teams numerous times. After one the things that made him infamous at 19 was scoring a hattrick against Real Madrid in a game where they were behind.
Good post. I'd say Ronaldo is more of a leader than Messi, but yeah your post is pretty much spot on.
Maradona's club output doesn't come close to Messi or Ronnie. These are two players that have broken just about every fecking record there is to break, at a time when football is extremely methodical, players are faster and stronger and most of all they've done it consistently for a ridiculous amount of time.
They are the two greatest players of all time. Whether or not you think they were the most talented etc. Is another argument.
They are the two greatest players of all time. Whether or not you think they were the most talented etc. Is another argument.
You know the common denominator with the clueless posts on here, the Ronaldo fanboys who are also Messi haters. All talk utter garbage. Their fascination with trying to make it out Europe is the hardest with numerous top sides so they can hype Ronaldo as some sort of God for winning Euros and that Messi has it easy playing in South America is laughable.
Can't believe people are actually trying to argue it's easy to qualify for the WC in CONEMBOL. Absolutely ridiculous opinion and then say it's harder to qualify from the European side.
What is even more hilarious is you have one awful poster claiming I'm moving the goalposts when my opinion has been consistent all along, same one that refused to answer previous questions because it would have 100% proved his opinion wrong and changed his whole argument.
The facts are I'm not arguing that Uruguay and Chile are top level sides, but to put the most overrated country every single year in England and a side that struggles regularly in WCs Portugal beside the elites is mental. Anybody that thinks those two sides are superior to Uruguay/Chile and belong beside France, Brazil, Germany etc talk garbage end of. Same weirdos that probably think England are superior to Italy all because they don't know the players because their knowledge outside of England and Ronaldo is woeful.
Someone actually claimed in another thread that Reece James walks into every top side in Italy. Wow. Turkey as a level 2 side HAHA
Anyway I'm done with the woeful posts in this thread as it's Messi vs Ronaldo not this continued debate.
Can't believe people are actually trying to argue it's easy to qualify for the WC in CONEMBOL. Absolutely ridiculous opinion and then say it's harder to qualify from the European side.
What is even more hilarious is you have one awful poster claiming I'm moving the goalposts when my opinion has been consistent all along, same one that refused to answer previous questions because it would have 100% proved his opinion wrong and changed his whole argument.
The facts are I'm not arguing that Uruguay and Chile are top level sides, but to put the most overrated country every single year in England and a side that struggles regularly in WCs Portugal beside the elites is mental. Anybody that thinks those two sides are superior to Uruguay/Chile and belong beside France, Brazil, Germany etc talk garbage end of. Same weirdos that probably think England are superior to Italy all because they don't know the players because their knowledge outside of England and Ronaldo is woeful.
Someone actually claimed in another thread that Reece James walks into every top side in Italy. Wow. Turkey as a level 2 side HAHA
Anyway I'm done with the woeful posts in this thread as it's Messi vs Ronaldo not this continued debate.
Car crash of a postYou know the common denominator with the clueless posts on here, the Ronaldo fanboys who are also Messi haters. All talk utter garbage. Their fascination with trying to make it out Europe is the strongest so they can hype Ronaldo as some sort of God for winning Euros and that Messi has it easy playing in South America is laughable.
Can't believe people are actually trying to argue it's easy to qualify for the WC in CONEMBOL. Absolutely ridiculous opinion and then say it's harder to qualify from the European side.
What is even more hilarious is you have one awful poster claiming I'm moving the goalposts when my opinion has been consistent all along, same one that refused to answer previous questions because it would have 100% proved his opinion wrong and changed his whole argument.
The facts are I'm not arguing that Uruguay and Chile are top level sides, but to put the most overrated country every single year in England and a side that struggles regularly in WCs Portugal beside the elites is mental. Anybody that thinks those two sides are superior to Uruguay/Chile talk garbage end of. Same weirdos that probably think England are superior to Italy all because they don't know the players because their knowledge outside of England and Ronaldo is woeful.
How that's lack of personality? By your logic then Maradona didn't have personality either. Weird statement
Part of what makes Ronaldo great is his personality, his main flaw (from a fan point of view) was sacrificing what made his game fun to watch over efficiency and final output
Why are you stating you're a Karlsruher supporter when you refer to Man United as 'us' ? Very weird.
Genuinely a terrible post with no logic.You know the common denominator with the clueless posts on here, the Ronaldo fanboys who are also Messi haters. All talk utter garbage. Their fascination with trying to make it out Europe is the hardest with numerous top sides so they can hype Ronaldo as some sort of God for winning Euros and that Messi has it easy playing in South America is laughable.
Can't believe people are actually trying to argue it's easy to qualify for the WC in CONEMBOL. Absolutely ridiculous opinion and then say it's harder to qualify from the European side.
What is even more hilarious is you have one awful poster claiming I'm moving the goalposts when my opinion has been consistent all along, same one that refused to answer previous questions because it would have 100% proved his opinion wrong and changed his whole argument.
The facts are I'm not arguing that Uruguay and Chile are top level sides, but to put the most overrated country every single year in England and a side that struggles regularly in WCs Portugal beside the elites is mental. Anybody that thinks those two sides are superior to Uruguay/Chile and belong beside France, Brazil, Germany etc talk garbage end of. Same weirdos that probably think England are superior to Italy all because they don't know the players because their knowledge outside of England and Ronaldo is woeful.
Someone actually claimed in another thread that Reece James walks into every top side in Italy. Wow. Turkey as a level 2 side HAHA
Anyway I'm done with the woeful posts in this thread as it's Messi vs Ronaldo not this continued debate.
I was just thinking, if I had a chance to watch 2 players playing live in their absolute peak form in 1 game, it would be Maradona and L.Ronaldo.
But I were to choose 2 players on their peak form to play for my supported club for 1 whole season, no doubt it would be Ronaldo and Messi.
And of course if I have to choose 2 players playing for my club throughout their career, it would be Ronaldo and Messi too, without a doubt.
Severely underrating both, and you're wrong about Ronaldo's personality.
The reason the are "efficient" and not some wild free bird type players is because in the modern game you can't do that. You have to be methodical and know which runs are worth making etc.
Ronaldo's personality is amazing and it's part of the reason he has such a dedicated fan following and a claim for GOATness. He epitomizes self belief, confidence and a never say die attitude.
For me, Ronaldo is the modern player embodiment of Sir Alex Ferguson on the pitch. Added to it is that he's a show off which adds an extra layer to him as a player.
People laugh at such things holding any meaning but had Messi been 1/2 as self determined as Ronaldo he would have won stuff with Argentina by now.
Maradonna was a playmaker though who played for Napoli in the worlds toughest league and was probably among the most fouled players ever. He got an impressive amount of goals despite being mostly a pure nr. 10. On that note it impressive how many goals Messi scores despite often dropping so deep as well but on that note it clear that team is set up for Messi to score, but you often see Messi pinging passes from the center of the pitch or from his own half of the pitch which for me shows that he's not a pure forward.
You know the common denominator with the clueless posts on here, the Ronaldo fanboys who are also Messi haters. All talk utter garbage. Their fascination with trying to make it out Europe is the hardest with numerous top sides so they can hype Ronaldo as some sort of God for winning Euros and that Messi has it easy playing in South America is laughable.
Can't believe people are actually trying to argue it's easy to qualify for the WC in CONEMBOL. Absolutely ridiculous opinion and then say it's harder to qualify from the European side.
What is even more hilarious is you have one awful poster claiming I'm moving the goalposts when my opinion has been consistent all along, same one that refused to answer previous questions because it would have 100% proved his opinion wrong and changed his whole argument.
The facts are I'm not arguing that Uruguay and Chile are top level sides, but to put the most overrated country every single year in England and a side that struggles regularly in WCs Portugal beside the elites is mental. Anybody that thinks those two sides are superior to Uruguay/Chile and belong beside France, Brazil, Germany etc talk garbage end of. Same weirdos that probably think England are superior to Italy all because they don't know the players because their knowledge outside of England and Ronaldo is woeful.
Someone actually claimed in another thread that Reece James walks into every top side in Italy. Wow. Turkey as a level 2 side HAHA
Anyway I'm done with the woeful posts in this thread as it's Messi vs Ronaldo not this continued debate.
And here ladies and gentleman is a messi fan who has cracked. Just don't announce your retirement only to take it back bro.
You know the common denominator with the clueless posts on here, the Ronaldo fanboys who are also Messi haters. All talk utter garbage. Their fascination with trying to make it out Europe is the hardest with numerous top sides so they can hype Ronaldo as some sort of God for winning Euros and that Messi has it easy playing in South America is laughable.
Can't believe people are actually trying to argue it's easy to qualify for the WC in CONEMBOL. Absolutely ridiculous opinion and then say it's harder to qualify from the European side.
What is even more hilarious is you have one awful poster claiming I'm moving the goalposts when my opinion has been consistent all along, same one that refused to answer previous questions because it would have 100% proved his opinion wrong and changed his whole argument.
The facts are I'm not arguing that Uruguay and Chile are top level sides, but to put the most overrated country every single year in England and a side that struggles regularly in WCs Portugal beside the elites is mental. Anybody that thinks those two sides are superior to Uruguay/Chile and belong beside France, Brazil, Germany etc talk garbage end of. Same weirdos that probably think England are superior to Italy all because they don't know the players because their knowledge outside of England and Ronaldo is woeful.
Someone actually claimed in another thread that Reece James walks into every top side in Italy. Wow. Turkey as a level 2 side HAHA
Anyway I'm done with the woeful posts in this thread as it's Messi vs Ronaldo not this continued debate.
wtf is this
I’ve thought about this a lot and I kind of agree. For all that Messi and Ronaldo have achieved, I still think Pele and Maradona are the two greatest players of all time, and I believe that when both of them retire, this will be seen more clearly.
Sometimes I think Messi may have surpassed Maradona into second place in my list and I go back and forth on that. But then I come back to what Maradona did with Napoli and in the World Cup and I wonder……
I do think the World Cup matters, despite the vain protestations of Messi and Ronaldo stans in claiming that it doesn’t. Messi has been much better at the World Cup than Ronaldo has, but Pele and Maradona have the most iconic moments in the history of the competition, which is what is supposed to happen with the greatest player of all time.
These days I don't get how a 1-month cup is rated higher than 10-15 years of football domination. Don't get me wrong, I do believe that winning the World Cup is still the top achievement for any player and I assume that both Ronaldo and Messi will finish their career without winning one but they did win everything else.
I don't hold against Messi for not winning a trophy for the NT the same way I don't rate Ronaldo higher for winning the Euro 2016. Both were core key players for their national team and at the end of the day, the team stepped up for Ronaldo in 2016 while in the case of Messi they didn't step up at all when it mattered.
With that said, it's probably the only thing they have against them when you compare Pele and Maradona vs Ronaldo and Messi. In pretty much everything else, it doesn't seem to be a contest imo based on what I know.
Obviously, I didn't see either Pele or Maradona play so my opinion might sound a bit unfair because it's based on online information so it's mainly based on stats.
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Obviously it matters, but I am of the opinion the weight on how much it matters is overstated by many people. The importance of a month long tournament should not be the definitive reason as to why x player is better than y.
I always use the importance of the CL as being overstated as well. Zidane and Ancelotti would be regarded as superior to Guardiola, Mourinho and SAF in such a case. Messi World cup campaign in 2014 and Portugal Euros win are vastly overhype from both sides.
What is funny though is the same posters that downplay the importance of a World Cup for Ronaldo, do the complete opposite with regards to Guardiola and the CL.
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