I always fond this idea bizarre. Cristiano has had two all time great sides built around him. While both have been the main man in multiple trophy winning teams, both did so with teams full of world class players.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
- Thread starter Rado_N
- Start date
- Status
I always fond this idea bizarre. Cristiano has had two all time great sides built around him. While both have been the main man in multiple trophy winning teams, both did so with teams full of world class players.
He definitely has been capable of doing such a thing. However, in the best teams he played for he had excellent strikers in their own right in Rooney and Benzema who have (rightly) sacrificed themselves to provide for him. The season after he left, both became much more prolific. Now we’re seeing Dybala struggle as Juve’s game has changed to focus more on crossing to Cristiano’s head.
In contrast, building around Messi improves the output of those around him.
Doubt Ronaldo can win the game on his own more than Messi. He is capable of it but it's something we haven't seen regularly or saw many years ago.
Btw before anyone gets triggered, I'm not saying depending on your teammates is wrong or not worthy to praise, it's just reply to post saying Ronaldo wins the game single handedly and Messi can't.
Exactly, it's not a slight on Ronaldo to say he depends on his team-mates service, it's the way he plays and that's well and good. The thing is, Messi creates his team's football, which is far more difficult to do. They occupy different roles, both on a world class level, but Messi's contribution is in a different category. It requires more skill and participation, and Messi does it because he's the better footballer.
That's a myth, ask Zlatan
Zlatan's output remained on the same level as in the previous season. The only one that scored less was David Villa.
Ibra has a very high opinion of Messi by the way and prefers him to Cristiano AFAIK..
No, it's not. Suarez, Neymar, and Dembele have the best years of their lives with Messi alongside them.
You Messi fans and your alternative facts.
Zlatan scored more both in the league and overall in both 07/08 & 08/09 with Inter than 09/10 with Barca, never mind the fact that generally more goals are scored in La Liga than Serie A.
I'm not sure what your last sentence have to do with "Messi improves the output of those around him" being factually wrong.
You Messi fans and your alternative facts.
Zlatan scored more both in the league and overall in both 07/08 & 08/09 with Inter than 09/10 with Barca, never mind the fact that generally more goals are scored in La Liga than Serie A.
I'm not sure what your last sentence have to do with "Messi improves the output of those around him" being factually wrong.
Worth noting that Suarez had his absolute best scoring season playing alongside Messi in 15/16, won the golden shoe.
Suarez scored 30/44, 31/37 in his last 2 seasons with Liverpool; 25/43, 59/53, 37/51, 31/51, 25/48 with Barcelona. Except the 15/16 season, his scoring rate has actually gone down at Barca.
Neymar also has a higher goal/game ratio with PSG.
How do goals/game quantify how well a player plays?
That's true, but if Messi is the key factor, he should be maintain a better goal/game ratio most the time and not just have that one purple patch season?
The point being discussed is that @RochaRoja said that "Messi improves the output of those around him", which is factually incorrect.
Ok sure, thought it was Messi improves the play of those around him.
No way. Just watch Messi's performances throughout the 2010-2011 UCL, like the final, instead of just comparing their numbers of goals. Just watch. The only thing in which he is equal to CR7 is goal scoring, but Messi has always outclassed CR7 in virtually all technical aspects, like dribbling, passing, ball control. CR7 has only better physique, is a better header and perhaps has a stronger mentality.
Gerd Muller was a star player close to Beckenbauer's level.
And Messi dribbles objectively, his dribbles always create danger and good chances.
And the best players are defined by far more than goalscoring, you need to take in consideration the whole package. By your logic, Puskas was better than Di Stefano, Cruyff and Maradona and Garrincha
This is why Messi is superior to CR7, but Cal is unable to see it with all the overwhelming evidence and even contradicting himself. He says that Messi was being handled by Real for most of the match because he failed to score. And CR7? CR7 has had many performances where, outside scoring a late goal or such, he did not do anything, unlike Messi against Real in 2011, Messi was playing very well and helping create great chances and showing his skills with objectivity. Just search Messi vs. Real 2011, all his touches during the game.
If anything, CR7 was more like being handled by Bayern in 2017 before Vidal was sent off, turning the tide of a game that Bayern was dominating in that point. And CR7's two goals were offside and tap-in goals if I am not mistaken. No demerit in that, but it does not make him better than Messi for many reasons given here that should be obvious.
Also, I do not like how such discussions often end up talking about all the bad matches that they had or the big decisions they bottled it. Every player, even them, have the right to fail even many times. If we are going to judge who is better only by comparing the worst of both, that is sad and misses what makes them fantastic players. It sucks the love and fun with football.
No, because it is fairly obvious Suarez individually is nowhere near the level he exibited in 15/16, nothing to do with Messi. He's been progressively declining since, had he been say 24 in 2015/16 you might have had a point.
He also cherry picks the last two seasons of Suárez at Liverpool but ignores that he scored 15 in 52 in his first season and a half at the club.
You Messi fans and your alternative facts.
Zlatan scored more both in the league and overall in both 07/08 & 08/09 with Inter than 09/10 with Barca, never mind the fact that generally more goals are scored in La Liga than Serie A.
I'm not sure what your last sentence have to do with "Messi improves the output of those around him" being factually wrong.
Funny. Zlatan scored once every 127 minutes fore Barca in La Liga. The season before that once every 125 minutes. The season after once every 180 minutes. His career average is once every 130 minutes.
"Alternative facts".
Career average?
Clearly players maintain the same level throughout their career. It’s now like Barca signed him at his peak or anything.
Career average?
Clearly players maintain the same level throughout their career. It’s now like Barca signed him at his peak or anything.
Isn’t this the entire basis of your “Suárez was better without Messi at Liverpool” argument though?
Zlatan’s career average also includes playing in such top quality competitions as MLS, Eredivisie, Ligue 1 and Allsvenskan btw.
How about La Liga and Serie A? Do players generally score more in Serie A?Yes, because Ligue 1 and La Liga are comparable levels of football.
It’s not like Barca signed him for that fee due to those 2 years or anything.
I pointed out that his output did NOT improve.
Also Zlatan has had a very long career. The most comparable seasons are the ones that preceded his transfer for a record fee, no?
If you remove Messi, Ronaldo and Suárez from the equation then yes.
Suker, Romario, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho
Raul, benzema, they've always had the best strikers
Eto’o, 130/199 with Barca, 53/102 with Inter
Do point out who scored more in Serie A than La Liga during their peak years
Career average?
Clearly players maintain the same level throughout their career. It’s now like Barca signed him at his peak or anything.
Don't distract again. You told me I was wrong, the facts I just posted prove I was right. His minutes per goals were similar to his previous season and way better than the following season.
Your argument that Ibrahimovic' career average is irrelevant is nonsense by the way since Zlatan only started scoring that much as he got older, precisely after his first Milan season. When he joined Barca he had only one season with more than 20 goals to his belt. His Barca season was as good as any before that scoring-wise.
Higauin?
121 in 264 games for Madrid
107 in 190 in la Liga
154 In 273 for Napoli juve and Milan (not withstanding he was gash at Milan)
117 In 192 in seria a ... Not withstanding Milan gash
In all but one of the last 10 seasons the top scorer of Serie A has scored more than the highest non-Messi, Suárez or Cristiano players in La Liga
09-10 Higuaín 27 vs Di Natale 29
10-11 Agüero/Negredo 20 vs Di Natale 28
11-12 Falcao 24 vs Ibrahimović 28
12-13 Falcao 28 vs Cavani 29
13-14 Costa 27 vs Immobile 22
14-15 Griezmann/Neymar 22 vs Toni/Icardi 22
15-16 Benzema/Neymar 24 vs Higuaín 36
16-17 Aspas 19 vs Džeko 29
17-18 Aspas 22 vs Immobile/Icardi 29
18-19 Benzema 21 vs Quagliarella 25
And that’s not even mentioning that most of the players on the left are of higher caliber than those on the right.
Serie A being harder to score in is a myth that’s decades out of date. The only reason people believe it is the phenomenons of Cristiano, Messi and peak Suárez skewing the stats by winning the Pichichi with such extraordinary numbers.
I’m not distracting, it’s clearly ludicrous to use a player’s career average to compare to his stats at his supposed PEAK and then credit Messi for it.
The fact is Zlatan was scoring at a higher rate with Inter, which is what prompted Barca to pay a record fee for him. He then scored less at Barca.
Fair enough... but the point remains most players score less in Serie A than La Liga, Zlatan, Eto’o, Ronaldo...
You’re taking out the best 2 teams from La Liga for said comparison?
You’re using the guy who went from scoring 36 in 52 in his last season with Messi to 16 in 48 in his first without him? Ballsy, I’ll give you that.
To be honest, this whole debate about Messi improving those around him vs CR7 is stupid. There are too many factors to consider and not enough data to be able to say anything conclusive.
It takes time to adjust to a new team / system, players fluctuate in performance from season to season for no good obvious reason, injuries, what position they play in respective teams, other members of the team also play a huge role. Like you can't say Messi improves the output of the people around him by saying Zlatan had slightly better better average goal scored / minute in Barcelona compared to the season before / after. It's simply too hard to quantify.
It takes time to adjust to a new team / system, players fluctuate in performance from season to season for no good obvious reason, injuries, what position they play in respective teams, other members of the team also play a huge role. Like you can't say Messi improves the output of the people around him by saying Zlatan had slightly better better average goal scored / minute in Barcelona compared to the season before / after. It's simply too hard to quantify.
I’m not distracting, it’s clearly ludicrous to use a player’s career average to compare to his stats at his supposed PEAK and then credit Messi for it.
The fact is Zlatan was scoring at a higher rate with Inter, which is what prompted Barca to pay a record fee for him. He then scored less at Barca.
Can you read? He didn't score at a higher rate for Inter. That's not even up to discussion, it is a fact. The Barca season was Zlatan's third best ever minutes per goal-wise, the second best being only 2 minutes below that. And the best was in the Dutch league.
Unbelievable. And you accuse others of using alternative facts? You simply ignore inconvenient facts. Hypocrite.
I don't know where you get your stats:
Zlatan
07/08 - 22/34 = 0.65
08/09 - 29/47 = 0.62
09/10 - 21/45 = 0.47
@Cal? Here is the other side of Barca/Chelsea from 2009 showing that while Chelsea had some bad calls go against, so did Barca:
Minutes, Cal?, minutes.
- Status