If you’re arguing about Messi being far more creative and a far better playmaker than Cristiano then you need to watch another sport, honestly.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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If you’re arguing about Messi being far more creative and a far better playmaker than Cristiano then you need to watch another sport, honestly.
Indeed, and you left out Higuain, Messi's continued failure for his national team is ALL down to Higuain.Every person in the universe has failed Messi. Otherwise he would have had 2000 goals and 4000 assists by this time. It must be so hard playing with mediocre players like ronaldinho, Henry, etoo ,Villa, xavi , iniesta, neymar , suarez etc. Really feel for Messi here,always let down by his own teammates
You're the one linking assists and creativity when we're talking about two players from different positions.
Oh scarecrow, i'll find more fake graphics when you find a brain.
You didn't explain why or how Messi had this supposed phenomenon of teammates consistently misfiring to tweak the stats which happen to not be the case for Ronaldo at the same time. Your post is more like... ranting. Those players have the better goal ratios over the past few months. This alleged phenomenon had to have been at work for a decade to explain what you say it explains.
Can't believe we are seriously discussing if there's a gap in creativity between the two. Almost like discussing with flat earthers.
It's about as bad as someone arguing about quality of teammates. The gap in passing vision between Messi and Ronaldo is about as big as their respective teammates since 2009 (a big gap if you were wondering).
I'd like to see Benzema's assist numbers. They should be pretty high from playing next to Ronaldo.
Oh, please!
This entire line of discussion was started by the question "how much better?" regarding Messi's creativity. Personally, I don't think there's any issue with someone saying Messi is more creative, because that's hardly an outrageous notion. I wouldn't even argue with someone saying that. What I question is people who constantly use hyperboles: it's not even close; light years ahead etc or even more to the point the one you employed in this post! The people who are constantly operating in the superlative degree of comparison only, to borrow a phrase from Dickens. I've been trying to gauge the logic behind such arguments and the posts above indicate or even admit on some level that there's none!
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Whatever mate, have had enough of that discussion.
Well, in this case the hyperboles are justified. In terms of creativity, there are lightyears between them.
They are only justified if someone is able to justify them. Do you, too, want to take a stab at the question that others have failed to answer? Why did the light-year difference in creativity fail to be reflected in the assists?
If Ronaldo had the creativity of his fans to argue he'd be almost at Messi's level.
It really isn't close. It's like someone comparing Messi and Ronaldo's heading ability. Messi is widely regarded as one of, if not the best final third passer of all time and Ronaldo isn't even the best in his team and never has been.
They are justified in numbers, Messi has 52 more assists in 150 fewer matches. That is light-years and I say that as someone who doesn't think you can measure creativity with just assists.
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Because assists is a stupid metric to measure creativity, at least if it's the only thing you are looking at. Start factoring in key passes, preassists, chances created, dribbles etc. and you'll get a clearer picture. But ultimately even all these statistics are irrelevant since football is far too complicated and contextual for that. Qualitative analysis (aka the eyetest) is still the best way to evaluate and if your personal eyetest has lead to the conclusion that Cris is anywhere near Messi creativity-wise.. well, then there's not enough common ground for a discussion, to put it lightly.
You believe high profile federation members are corrupting things in order to help their country of birth?
We need to check Platini’s family history to find a Qatar connection.
I was obviously joking...
Creativity is everything that leads to helping a team create chances. Not just the things you want.
Hard to reach a common ground about how we rate their creativity when we can’t even somewhat agree on what creativity is.
The rest kind of makes sense, but how is dribbling an aspect of creativity?
Ronaldo has played a whopping 33 more games than Messi in UCL and only 7 more assists in that time.
Ronaldo has had his fair share of of assists from shots scored off of his rebounds compared to Messi
Also Messi has a much bigger gap in assists than Ronaldo on a year to year basis than you think:
http://messivsronaldo.net/calendar-year-stats/
Check it out from 2009 onward
Delusion at it's finest. Messi is one of the most creative players of all time. Ronaldo (whilst being good) is not even close. And even if you go by the assists argument, why does he have less assists over his career than Messi, despite playing more than 100 games more? Ronaldo has more assists than Diego. Please do not tell me that you think he's more creative than Maradonna. Don't think even Cal or Peyroteo would go there. On the other hand......
So you can't justify it because your best way of evaluating this is through a perceptual experience, one of the least reliable/objective ways of coming to conclusions about anything! Surely you see the irony that this mirrors how flat-earthers come to conclusions? Their eyesight indicates that the earth is flat (because it's locally flat) and as a result they believe the earth is flat!
Hyperboles are justified because of your eye-test, apparently!
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You wouldn't need to make any excuses if it was light years ahead!
In fact the career average difference in assists per season works out to more or less to the same as the La Liga one. Yeah, light years!
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You're lucky we're even humouring you regarding Messi and Ronaldo being similar in the creativity department. It's a deranged viewpoint but seeing as you're unable to digest football using your eyes for some weird reason I'll give you some stats instead.
Messi has better assist stats; 52 more assists in 150 fewer matches. That is light-years!
Messi has better scoring stats; 0.82 goal to game ratio to Ronaldo's 0.72. He also has a better ratio in the league and CL and every other competition except he is only 0.04 shy of Ronaldo's international goalscoring ratio, despite not having to face minnow teams like Andorra and the Faroe Islands for WC Qualifiers which account for 10% of his international goals in those 4 games. Ronaldo's goal ratio in the CL KO stages is the one thing he has Messi beat in.
How do you justify that?
Eh I'm sure a lot of midfielders and fullbacks would value Ronaldo's playstyle because it makes their job easier at times. They don't have to be super accurate with their delivery for him to make something of it; that's definitely a form of chance creation in my book. However, Messi is definitely better than Ronaldo in what he does, and vice versa.
Holding Ronaldo to Messi style of play will make him come up short, and vice versa. And since they seem to have about the same level of match-winning impact, I feel like they are at the same level, just different stylistically.
I guess that's where we differ. One is one of the greatest goalscorers of all time, and is very good at other facets of the game (you could argue he's one of the best headers of the ball ever I guess). The other player is one of the greatest goalscorers of all time, AND one of the greatest dribblers ever, AND one of the best passers of all time, and is generally speaking one of the most creative players of all time.
No other player in history shows all those attributes at an all time level (Cruyff and Diego get close but they miss out on the goalscoring aspect, whilst very good, you wouldn't classify them as one of history's best goalscoerers).
There simply is no comparison between the two.
Apparently Messi is light-years ahead of Ronaldo in everything important to football ( read: whatever Messi is strong at)while being surrounded by average teammates who fail him all the time.
Don't understand why this light-years gap is not reflected in their respective individual awards. Hmm.
Don't understand why this light-years gap is not reflected in their respective individual awards. Hmm.
Agreed. The rate at which they bring up the headers is to me a clear indication that they’re clutching for straws. They’ve already decided they like Ronaldo more, and in order to even begin justifying it they must reach the conclusion that watching the games is meaningless (because then it would be obvious that Messi is far ahead).
So they desperately bring up one of the few hard facts they can bring up to support Ronaldo: his headers. Reminds me a bit of how the Fellaini brigade used to constantly drone on and on about his chest control.
What do the onzo d'ors say?
Ramos and Bale winning the CL by showing up in the finals
Isn't this the YouTube highlights guy?
You're not entertaining anything. Some of you even went full insult mode like @Ishdalar because people were not agreeing with your seemingly quasi-religious methods of coming to conclusions (aka eye-test). Very precious!
The fact that you think 52 more assists is light-years when we are talking about 800/950 games is itself remarkable! The extra Ronaldo appearances you're latching on to were amassed from as far back as 2002 when Ronaldo was coming off from bench for Sporting/United in 02-04.
Earlier I said Messi averaged just 4 more assists per season in La Liga during their time. I didn't mention that, in fact, Messi played 17 games more; if you were looking for appearance stats. Light years, though, right?
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It's not reflected in anything but apparently it's there!
The teammate theory was the funniest one of them. The guy must except be truly cursed to not only have been let down by teammates for the national team, but for a decade in La Liga as well. I knew about the first one - the Higuain blame - but the second one was new to me!
52 more assists in around 150 less games basically proves Messi is light years ahead, yet it gets knocked down to fit your argument. Messi being a top player from a much younger age than Ronaldo, should be included, especially when the argument of Messi Vs Ronaldo is about their whole careers.
It is funny that Ronaldo fans always use the excuse that Ronaldo played for Sporting and was then nurtured at United in a transitioning squad until he became a good player. And that Messi played in a much better team from a much earlier age so no wonder his early career stats are better.
Maybe if Ronaldo was as good as Messi at 15/16 then he would have been bought by a team that was top 5 in the world at the time and would have played games for their first team. As it happens, Messi was a far better young player and that is why he started games for Barca at a young age.
Here’s an interesting assist stat.
In all El Clásicos, Messi has 14 assists. Ronaldo has 1.
This is in addition to scoring more, both in actual numbers and goals per game.
In all El Clásicos, Messi has 14 assists. Ronaldo has 1.
This is in addition to scoring more, both in actual numbers and goals per game.
You can't use the extra appearances as a context in your defence regarding this stat yet complain about context being provided for the extra appearances themselves. That's having your cake and eating it too.
They have been played in the same league for a long time and the Messi averaged about 4 more assists per season in more games, and was out-assisted in the champions league! If you're going to base on the light years ahead reasoning on the substitute appearances of Ronaldo on 02-04 etc than that's up to you. But explain to me why this doesn't show the light-years ahead creativity difference?
If Messi continues to assist at the rate he has been this season for those 150 fewer games, so they both have the same amount of appearances, Messi would have 122 more assists than Ronaldo - let me put that in context for you; Lampard managed 102 assists in 609 premier league games. It is light-years.
If assists are what measure creativity, why does the Ronaldo cult insist that Messi had much better support from 2010-2013 even though Ozil and Di Maria averaged far more assists than Xavi and Iniesta?
Well, you do realise this is a hypothetical right?
I'm also guessing in your hypothetical you're giving those appearances to prime Messi and they were full appearances, not subs? You're jumping through too many hoops, ffs! Now we're if arguments!
Tell me, how come the gap you hypothesise did not materialise in La Liga?
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Özil and Di Maria were absolute world class at Madrid. Ronaldo himself even said how great Özil was at assisting him.
”The sale of Özil is very bad news for me," he said. "He was the player who best knew my moves in front of goal. I'm angry about Özil leaving."
Anyone who talks of "light years" between two of the greatest players of all time forfeits their ability to be taken seriously.
Well, you do realise this is a hypothetical right?
I'm also guessing in your hypothetical you're giving those appearances to prime Messi and they were full appearances, not subs? You're jumping through too many hoops, ffs! Now we're if arguments!
Tell me, how come the gap you hypothesise did not materialise in La Liga?
OK, I'll be kind then.
Let's take away Ronaldo's first 150 appearances, back when he was at Sporting and United, so he and Messi have both played 804 games. Even then he'd have 76 fewer assists than Messi - let's provide a little context once more; Raul managed 75 assists in 550 La Liga games.
EDIT: I also just did the same for goals and Messi still has 5 more than Ronaldo in as many games. So even including young, substituted and injury prone Messi's appearances, he was scoring more than a 150 game in Ronaldo so that excuse is out the window.
To answer your question, Messi has 36 assists more than Ronaldo when they were both in La Liga (Messi 309 games; Ronaldo 292). That's a definitive gap.
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Not when it comes to playmaking. Messi is on another level.
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