Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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It would have been better if the red zone was focused on the head.This is brilliant.
Good point. Maybe next time when he scores hat trick someone should do that.
Messi over Penaldo, any day of the week.
Roma agrees
These post-game discussions are eventually just some sort of hype of the day. I can't remember when Ronaldo or Messi had a game like this, even from last year. In the greater scheme of things it doesn't mean anything.
I remember Messi playing a good WC final but losing. I remember Ronaldo not playing a EC final but winning. I remember Messi scoring 1 against United in the CL final and creating another. I remember Messi creating a goal in the CL final against Juve, and Suarez scoring the rebound. I remember Ronaldo scoring a bycicle kick. I remember Ronaldo scoring that free kick against Spain. I don't know the dates for any of these.
Those are 'moments' you might remember in 5 years time, just like you remember Roberto Carlos' bendy free kick, or Beckham's free kick, or Maradonas dribble goal. I hardly doubt I'll remember this game in 5 years. Maybe the diehard Ronaldo fans will, but the regular futbol forgets this pretty easily.
For me, a legacy is build on something else then these moments. For Messi fans it's Messi moments, for Ronaldo fans it's Ronaldo moments.
I remember Messi playing a good WC final but losing. I remember Ronaldo not playing a EC final but winning. I remember Messi scoring 1 against United in the CL final and creating another. I remember Messi creating a goal in the CL final against Juve, and Suarez scoring the rebound. I remember Ronaldo scoring a bycicle kick. I remember Ronaldo scoring that free kick against Spain. I don't know the dates for any of these.
Those are 'moments' you might remember in 5 years time, just like you remember Roberto Carlos' bendy free kick, or Beckham's free kick, or Maradonas dribble goal. I hardly doubt I'll remember this game in 5 years. Maybe the diehard Ronaldo fans will, but the regular futbol forgets this pretty easily.
For me, a legacy is build on something else then these moments. For Messi fans it's Messi moments, for Ronaldo fans it's Ronaldo moments.
Yes. If trophies matter that much to you, I'm sure you also rate Kroos higher? I mean, he's clearly won more international titles than Schweini on top of being a better footballer.
You only say the second part because you don't understand the details IMO but whatever.
If I need a player for a friendly I pick Messi.
If I need a player for a big game I pick Ronaldo.
If I need a player for a big game I pick Ronaldo.
No one will remember this Ronaldo performance? This is exactly the sort of bullshit which makes this thread so unbearable.
What could actually be a fascinating debate by neutrals is derailed by irrational fan boys.
Exactly. How can anyone not remember these days, 2 big clubs playing in CL and legendary player scoring hat trick to take his team to next round.
I remember him scoring hat trick against Wolgsburg when they were 2-0 down in first leg. Some of these games just becomes sort of games that defines the player.
I'm neither a Ronaldo or Messi fanboy. I couldn't care less about who is the better player.
Honestly, I will have forgotten about this game and performance in two weeks. I didn't even remember the hat trick against Wolfsburg before it being mentioned here just now. These moments are nothing in the greater scheme of things for me.
This is the reason why this debate is so tiring. Every time either Ronaldo or Messi has a great game or scores an important winning goal it is used as the final argument, that they are definitely the GOAT. This is recency bias at it's finest. At this stage it should take much, much more than just a good game or a spectacular goal to alter the assessment of these two players. In the end they are so similar in terms of statistical output and trophies won, that it will inevitably come down to personal preference anyway.
Also, I simply can't wrap my head around the love-in for Ronaldo among United fans. Annoys me to no end.
Also, I simply can't wrap my head around the love-in for Ronaldo among United fans. Annoys me to no end.
Fair play to Ronaldo, delivered a hat-trick for Juventus in the most important match of the season so far. This is what Juventus signed him for (other than commercial success) and he showed up against a very hard opponent that came to defend, spearheading the elimination of the host of this year's Final while trailing by two goals.
This thread will always blow up after every match like this, now it's Ronaldo's turn. Hopefully this not only serves as a warning for Barcelona ahead of tonight's game (as if there weren't enough warnings in this round already), but also as motivation for our players to perform the best they can. The competition is heating up and I like to see a comeback so long as it's not achieved by Madrid. I didn't see Juventus winning this, it was an awfully big mountain to climb against Atletico of all teams, but they played like they believe they can do it and they did it. Comebacks are special so credit to Juventus here, the competition is definitely stronger with them in the QF.
EDIT: I realized most of my second paragraph was off topic so let's get back to it:
Ronaldo fans like to point out that the aim of this sport is to score goals so this is why Ronaldo is better. If we are going to ignore intangibles, isn't the aim of the sport to win trophies, ultimately? I mean, losing a Final 4-5 isn't better than winning 1-0, so it logically follows that the most important thing is to win in the end. I see mention of trophies by other posters, and I don't really keep count for Ronaldo, but doesn't Messi have more trophies? Overall and major trophies, I think Messi has the edge on both, despite being younger. Isn't this the bottom line?
I'm just trying to identify where the line is drawn. If intangibles are irrelevant and dribbling, passing, vision, creating space and whatnot take a backseat to putting the ball in the net, doesn't it reasonably follow that putting the ball in the net takes a backseat to winning titles? So how could Messi be a lesser player despite winning more trophies in a shorter period of time? How does this compute for you?
This thread will always blow up after every match like this, now it's Ronaldo's turn. Hopefully this not only serves as a warning for Barcelona ahead of tonight's game (as if there weren't enough warnings in this round already), but also as motivation for our players to perform the best they can. The competition is heating up and I like to see a comeback so long as it's not achieved by Madrid. I didn't see Juventus winning this, it was an awfully big mountain to climb against Atletico of all teams, but they played like they believe they can do it and they did it. Comebacks are special so credit to Juventus here, the competition is definitely stronger with them in the QF.
EDIT: I realized most of my second paragraph was off topic so let's get back to it:
Ronaldo fans like to point out that the aim of this sport is to score goals so this is why Ronaldo is better. If we are going to ignore intangibles, isn't the aim of the sport to win trophies, ultimately? I mean, losing a Final 4-5 isn't better than winning 1-0, so it logically follows that the most important thing is to win in the end. I see mention of trophies by other posters, and I don't really keep count for Ronaldo, but doesn't Messi have more trophies? Overall and major trophies, I think Messi has the edge on both, despite being younger. Isn't this the bottom line?
I'm just trying to identify where the line is drawn. If intangibles are irrelevant and dribbling, passing, vision, creating space and whatnot take a backseat to putting the ball in the net, doesn't it reasonably follow that putting the ball in the net takes a backseat to winning titles? So how could Messi be a lesser player despite winning more trophies in a shorter period of time? How does this compute for you?
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They’re pretty close in terms of collective awards and maybe Messi has even less if you omit the 2-3 la ligas he barely contributed to earlier in his career (04-06) and the CL in 2006. Plus, Ronaldo also has international silverware.
Great great goalscorer. Juve played really well aswell.
In my view Champions League is the highest quality form of football, over and above the World Cup.
And it's quite clear, at least to me, that Ronaldo is the greatest Champions League player of all time.
And it's quite clear, at least to me, that Ronaldo is the greatest Champions League player of all time.
That's quite selective. Again, this is a matter of drawing the line, so how do you decide at which point to stop counting a collective honour to a player's trophy cabinet? And do you also omit the international honour for Ronaldo because he was injured in the Final? Messi was already great in 2005-06, helped us a lot in the first leg against Chelsea but then got injured. If he had got injured, say, one round later (QF), would we count that trophy as well?
This is irrelevant though, as I already discarded the first two Ligas for Messi (04-05 and 05-06), the Champions League in 2006 as well as the Olympic Gold Medal. As far as I can tell from a quick google search, Messi still has more collective honours. Also, they're pretty close in terms of goals scored, aren't they? With Messi needing fewer games. So what gives?
Ronaldo didn’t play the Euro final but they wouldn’t have made that final without him. He scored or assisted over two thirds of their total goals. Much more defining to the success than Messi’s 2006 CL campaign. And Messi has played in more dominant teams for the majority of his career. Like I said, it’s close. Ronaldo beats Messi for CL trophies 5-3(4) and Messi is ahead for league titles 8(10)-5 with Ronaldo having an international honour. These are the major titles for both players.
Quoted Delaney who stated that Mbappe was second in the world behind Messi.
Well you shouldn't. I never heard anyone say "You know, Pelé doesn't really have 3 World Cups, since he only played 120 minutes in the 62' WC", 6 games and what he did vs Chelsea are more than enough to say that he wasn't a passenger in that title, Xavi played even less and I don't see anyone discounting him a UCL.
Because it's about achievements. Messi didn't achieve anything there other than being on the bench. Its a cheap stat to put forward which isn't needed since its Lionel fecking Messi
But he did play an important part in that title, even if he missed the last 5 games. Now we have to accept that he can have a trophy taken from him because he got injured in that same competition?. I don't see this being done with any other player, if we start taking merits from players because they couldn't play in the game, then we can go for players who missed a whole leg, and finally for players that were passengers on the pitch for whole legs and everyone would have a point about how many of those achievements are 100%, 70% or 20% merit of a player.
It's petty, one thing is saying "Ronaldo carried Portugal to the final but couldn't do anything in the final", and another to say "he never won an international title imo because he barely played in the final, he's on par with Messi there". One is a logical way of thinking, open to debate, the other is just fanboy hate and revisionism.
Its just that you don't care, doesn't mean it wasn't memorable. Its still one of the greatest individual comeback moments, and one of greatest Juventus comeback in their CL history... (name me more better ones).
For example, most fans here would never forget the night we won 1999 CL. Fecking classic. Its one of the moment which truly defines Fergie era and Man Utd history too. But if same logic applies, those neutral fans like you who don't give a shite, would say it's nothing in greater scheme of things too.
You're right, I know I shouldn't. I remember what Leo did for us back then, but I discarded those titles for the sake of the argument. It doesn't change anything, though.
Exactly. I dont even know what game that is, or would be. Its a nothing game in the greater scheme of football in its entirety.
People need to start putting things in perspective.
No one that saw that game live would tell you that the 99 final is nothing in the greater scheme of things. It's the most dramatic game anyone could've seen in his life, and we probably won't experience something like that.
Individuals leading comebacks? Just in this same tournament, past week, you have Tadic playing out of his mind to comeback vs Real Madrid, it's something special, but it's not "lose a UCL final you were winning in injury time over the next 2 minutes" special
Do you realise Messi hasn't play any games in knockout stages (7 games) in 2006 CL campaign? He was bit part players back then, only get some involvement in the group stages, and mostly from the bench. His contribution was probably as much as Greening in our 1999 campaign. Barcelona key player back then was Ronaldinho, Eto'o, Deco etc. I mean, Messi is a goat player with a great career, but 2006 CL wasn't his. Its like saying Greening has won the 1999 CL, which isn't wrong on paper, but nowhere near the truth in reality.
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Both Juventus comeback vs Atletico, Ajax comeback vs Real Madrid, and our comeback vs PSG, are very special. Its been a crazy week.
The 1999 CL final wasn't meant to compare with this at all. It was merely for argument sake to someone who doesn't care.
So.. How can he have scored most UCL goals in the first tweet, but Messi has scored the most UCL goals in the 2nd.. Which one is correct? Am I reading it wrong?
Yes you read it wrong. The 2nd tweet splits up Ronaldo's group goals and Knock out goals. And he's still in the top 5, for both. Add them together and he's top.
Yeah, and other examples, like what Neymar did vs PSG two years ago are almost forgotten now, first because those things happen more often than what we expect (individuals leading comebacks, not talking about the result they overcame) and second because there's another thing to consider, you need to seal those comebacks with a title, or they lose a lot of value.
Someone born beyond 1992 not caring makes sense, but for anyone that liked football on that era, it was a shocking game, didn't matter if you had anything at stake with those teams.
Round of 16 leg, he forces a red card in the first half and probably was man of the match against Mou's Chelsea in Stamford Bridge.
You know how hard it was to win there in that era, he was our best player that day and everyone thought that without him, we wouldn't go past that leg.
If Godin hacked Ronaldo last night in the 93th minute, breaking his leg and preventing him to play another minute while Juventus won the title, I wouldn't say "you know, Ronaldo was as important for Juve as Greening for United in 99".
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If one thinks that cup competitions are be and end all in football, then Ronaldo is the best player ever. His ability to score in stressful knockout games, where fighting spirit and opportunism are of crucial importance, is without comparison.
For me, league competitions in football are less chaotic and give better platform for sheer talent and quality to make difference. That's why Messi's league record over those years in Spain was much better. It all depends on what you value more: talent and artistry, or winning on a big stage. Both players have all these qualities, but in different combinations.
For me, league competitions in football are less chaotic and give better platform for sheer talent and quality to make difference. That's why Messi's league record over those years in Spain was much better. It all depends on what you value more: talent and artistry, or winning on a big stage. Both players have all these qualities, but in different combinations.
Yeah, its unfair to use Messi sitting on the bench or being a bit player of the best team in Europe as a stat against Ronaldo who joined a rebuilding United. It doesn't make sense to me.
It's just stat padding in a conversation that doesn't need it.
Well he may have 1 good game, and we all know young Messi is very talented, we all know that. But come on, regarding his contribution in 2006 CL campaign, we all know he wasn't regular player too, and didn't contributed much as compared to other Barca regulars. He has 1 goals in the whole campaign, and only play a few games in early stages. Ronaldinho has 7 goals, Etoo has 6, they won games in knockout stages, and they won the final.
Ronaldo, has already contributed 4 goals and 2 assists so far in 2018/19 CL campaign, won games in knockout stages too. It sure isn't comparable by any means.
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It is quite clear the Messi brigade has gone into panic mode as of last night.
They're confused how this "poacher" keeps dragging team after team to the final.
They're confused how this "poacher" keeps dragging team after team to the final.
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People without bias see that he's always been more than a poacher. Even nowadays his overall game doesn't get enough credit, he rarely fecks up passes, controls or dribbles. His goalscoring is so incredible it has managed to hide how much of an accomplished footballer he is.
It's been clear for a while now that Ronaldo is the more effective player and Messi is the more talented. It's kind of subjective which of them is then better on the back of that.
Unfortunately for their respective fan cults and their love of horned farm animals, Maradona was both.
Unfortunately for their respective fan cults and their love of horned farm animals, Maradona was both.
Nah I've seen enough. Messi is better.
Ronaldo is awesome though. Not because of all that "drive" bollocks. He is incredibly talented and intelligent. He understands the game very well. Messi beats him on both fronts IMO.
I usually don't involve in these discussions and for a record for me Messi is the GOAT (best attacker, best passer, best dribbler too) but weren't you Messi fan boys used Ronaldo not playing in Euro finals as something against him and now you are arguing Messi playing in Round of 16 is enough to credit him with CL title, how does this work?
I know Ronaldo vs Messi argument is full of goal posts shifting but few points doesn't make sense considering the earlier posts.
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