Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

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  • Ronaldo

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Imagine Portugal going out and Argentina progressing. :lol: Would have shocked the world.
 
You have to look at the totality of their careers, or any player's career, when assessing their worth. Ronaldo doesn't become a bad player because he missed a penalty. Messi doesn't become a bad player because he had two indifferent games in what were dreadful team performances. You have to look back at everything that they've done on the pitch, and what they're capable of doing on the pitch technically.

If you consider this, I personally consider Messi to be significantly ahead of Ronaldo, as he's quite obviously a more complete player, who can do things that Ronaldo could never dream of doing, and is better at virtually every aspect of the game. Also, he has dominated Spanish domestic football, which represents about 80% of the games that are played in the average season.

If you're going to make a case for Ronaldo being better then you have to magnify the fact that he's won one more CL medal and the fact that Portugal defended very well in the last European Championships. If you look at actual performances on the pitch then Messi was far better in both of the Copa America tournaments where Argentina lost in the final, and the World Cup where they lost in the final.

Overall, it staggers me that anyone could possibly consider Ronaldo to be a better footballer than Messi. But it is ultimately a matter of opinion, and it doesn't change on the basis of one match when they're both highly likely to rack up over 1,000 appearances.
 
Revan said:
Why are you counting Pele's goals in friendly matches to make a point.

And it was definitely easier to score back then. Football was much more attacking and less tactics were used. Pele also played for the best club in world in a regional league (there was no Brazilian league) which essentially meant that there were around 4 top clubs and the rest were shit.
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In the generation of Pelé Brazil won 3 out of 4 world cups and all the great players stayed in Brazil. The teams were not shit, the majority had wc players by the parameters of those times. You dont know the history of Brazilian football and your perception is incorrect.
 
I don't think Ronaldo had a bad game by the way. Yes, he missed the penalty, but this can happen. Yet he had some really good dribblings (one of them lead to the actual penalty, by the way, which equals it out at the very least) and looked more agile than I've seen him in most Madrid matches. He definitely does participate more for Portugal.

But I think this Portugal side is much better as a collective than Argentina. They got a little bit unlucky (especially the penalty against them) and didn't defend very concentrated but they didn't look as atrocious as the latter and easily dominated the ball.
 
Zehner said:
But I think this Portugal side is much better as a collective than Argentina. They got a little bit unlucky (especially the penalty against them) and didn't defend very concentrated but they didn't look as atrocious as the latter and easily dominated the ball.
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Defensively they are far better. Argentina have a useless back four and a hopeless keeper. Anyone could set up a team to beat them. Defend deep, don't let Messi get the ball in the pockets around the box, hit them on the break and they're bound to make a cock up sooner or later. Put some crosses in and around the keeper as well. Argentina might turn it around and scrape through the group, but as soon as they come up against anyone decent they'll have no chance (as they did against Croatia).
 
wub1234 said:
You have to look at the totality of their careers, or any player's career, when assessing their worth. Ronaldo doesn't become a bad player because he missed a penalty. Messi doesn't become a bad player because he had two indifferent games in what were dreadful team performances. You have to look back at everything that they've done on the pitch, and what they're capable of doing on the pitch technically.

If you consider this, I personally consider Messi to be significantly ahead of Ronaldo, as he's quite obviously a more complete player, who can do things that Ronaldo could never dream of doing, and is better at virtually every aspect of the game. Also, he has dominated Spanish domestic football, which represents about 80% of the games that are played in the average season.

If you're going to make a case for Ronaldo being better then you have to magnify the fact that he's won one more CL medal and the fact that Portugal defended very well in the last European Championships. If you look at actual performances on the pitch then Messi was far better in both of the Copa America tournaments where Argentina lost in the final, and the World Cup where they lost in the final.

Overall, it staggers me that anyone could possibly consider Ronaldo to be a better footballer than Messi. But it is ultimately a matter of opinion, and it doesn't change on the basis of one match when they're both highly likely to rack up over 1,000 appearances.
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Pretty much my feelings exactly.
 
Ji_Maria said:
Boys, it's really simple.

If you want to judge GOAT based on longevity and career, CR7 clearly wins it over Messi given the past 5 years.

If you want to judge GOAT based on "talent" or "ability," then either Ronaldo Lima or Ronaldinho clearly wins it.

In either case, Messi loses.

Now if you want to play mental gymnastics and twist and contort the facts like Liverpool, then by all means, stick by Messi. But at least be intellectually honest with yourselves.
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You are not even funny.
 
Zehner said:
I don't think Ronaldo had a bad game by the way. Yes, he missed the penalty, but this can happen. Yet he had some really good dribblings (one of them lead to the actual penalty, by the way, which equals it out at the very least) and looked more agile than I've seen him in most Madrid matches. He definitely does participate more for Portugal.

But I think this Portugal side is much better as a collective than Argentina. They got a little bit unlucky (especially the penalty against them) and didn't defend very concentrated but they didn't look as atrocious as the latter and easily dominated the ball.
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You know this is getting old when I’m the one arguing that Ronaldo played poorly and you’re the one defending him.

The way we played him with Andre Silva as the striker meant he was a bit more involved but he wasn’t better. He drops back more for Portugal than for Madrid but he did it too much.

He takes and scores so many important penalties that he’s bound to miss a few but that doesn’t mean you can just brush it aside either. He had a poor game by his standards.

This goes both ways but it’s incredible how fast narratives change here. They’ve been doing what they do for over a decade but they’re still only as good as their last game.
 
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wub1234 said:
Defensively they are far better. Argentina have a useless back four and a hopeless keeper. Anyone could set up a team to beat them. Defend deep, don't let Messi get the ball in the pockets around the box, hit them on the break and they're bound to make a cock up sooner or later. Put some crosses in and around the keeper as well. Argentina might turn it around and scrape through the group, but as soon as they come up against anyone decent they'll have no chance (as they did against Croatia).
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I disagree Argentina's defense is much better than most teams. Just have a look at the margin of the defeats. Croatia was a bad result, but otherwise they have been good defensively.
Just compare the number of goals conceded by Portugal against teams(even minnows) and you would understood

Edit: correcting the auto correct
 
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Revan said:
Bullshit.

How many times La Liga teams need to school EPL teams before this myth dies?
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Exactly, we got our ass handed to us by Sevilla this season and got almost done in by Celta Vigo last season in Europa. It is hilarious how so many people still call it a weak league.
 
wub1234 said:
You have to look at the totality of their careers, or any player's career, when assessing their worth. Ronaldo doesn't become a bad player because he missed a penalty. Messi doesn't become a bad player because he had two indifferent games in what were dreadful team performances. You have to look back at everything that they've done on the pitch, and what they're capable of doing on the pitch technically.

If you consider this, I personally consider Messi to be significantly ahead of Ronaldo, as he's quite obviously a more complete player, who can do things that Ronaldo could never dream of doing, and is better at virtually every aspect of the game. Also, he has dominated Spanish domestic football, which represents about 80% of the games that are played in the average season.

If you're going to make a case for Ronaldo being better then you have to magnify the fact that he's won one more CL medal and the fact that Portugal defended very well in the last European Championships. If you look at actual performances on the pitch then Messi was far better in both of the Copa America tournaments where Argentina lost in the final, and the World Cup where they lost in the final.

Overall, it staggers me that anyone could possibly consider Ronaldo to be a better footballer than Messi. But it is ultimately a matter of opinion, and it doesn't change on the basis of one match when they're both highly likely to rack up over 1,000 appearances.
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You're just blinded by your complete bias, Ronaldo can do plenty of things that Messi cannot, heading, much better at penalties despite last night, run more than 7.6km or whatever Messi does, finishing, clutch.

Also, La Liga only represents 80% of games Messi plays because he continually fails in the CL QF.

Ronaldo has 2 more CLs where he played a big part in winning, Messi's first one he didn't feature much.

It is staggering that some Messi fans still have the audacity to talk in such a condescending way. :rolleyes:
 
Dr. StrangeHate said:
Kroos, Modric, Nacho, Ronaldo, Marcelo (in semi and final of CL), this real Madrid team is full of people with never say die mentality. Even though I consider Pep's Barcelona to be the best team ever but in terms of individual mental strength in clutch moments there may never have been a team like this Madrid.
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I think you missed Ramos. Regardless of weather one likes him or not, he has that great mental strength. I have seen him strike many last min decisive goals.
 
CannonBalls said:
I think you missed Ramos. Regardless of weather one likes him or not, he has that great mental strength. I have seen him strike many last min decisive goals.
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That is true. Is it a deliberate decision by Madrid to buy players with such mental strength or did they just luck upon it. Because I would say Madrid have at least 7-8 captain/leaders in that team.
 
wub1234 said:
You have to look at the totality of their careers, or any player's career, when assessing their worth. Ronaldo doesn't become a bad player because he missed a penalty. Messi doesn't become a bad player because he had two indifferent games in what were dreadful team performances. You have to look back at everything that they've done on the pitch, and what they're capable of doing on the pitch technically.

If you consider this, I personally consider Messi to be significantly ahead of Ronaldo, as he's quite obviously a more complete player, who can do things that Ronaldo could never dream of doing, and is better at virtually every aspect of the game. Also, he has dominated Spanish domestic football, which represents about 80% of the games that are played in the average season.

If you're going to make a case for Ronaldo being better then you have to magnify the fact that he's won one more CL medal and the fact that Portugal defended very well in the last European Championships. If you look at actual performances on the pitch then Messi was far better in both of the Copa America tournaments where Argentina lost in the final, and the World Cup where they lost in the final.

Overall, it staggers me that anyone could possibly consider Ronaldo to be a better footballer than Messi. But it is ultimately a matter of opinion, and it doesn't change on the basis of one match when they're both highly likely to rack up over 1,000 appearances.
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Good post. Agree with all your points.
 
wub1234 said:
You have to look at the totality of their careers, or any player's career, when assessing their worth. Ronaldo doesn't become a bad player because he missed a penalty. Messi doesn't become a bad player because he had two indifferent games in what were dreadful team performances. You have to look back at everything that they've done on the pitch, and what they're capable of doing on the pitch technically.

If you consider this, I personally consider Messi to be significantly ahead of Ronaldo, as he's quite obviously a more complete player, who can do things that Ronaldo could never dream of doing, and is better at virtually every aspect of the game. Also, he has dominated Spanish domestic football, which represents about 80% of the games that are played in the average season.

If you're going to make a case for Ronaldo being better then you have to magnify the fact that he's won one more CL medal and the fact that Portugal defended very well in the last European Championships. If you look at actual performances on the pitch then Messi was far better in both of the Copa America tournaments where Argentina lost in the final, and the World Cup where they lost in the final.

Overall, it staggers me that anyone could possibly consider Ronaldo to be a better footballer than Messi. But it is ultimately a matter of opinion, and it doesn't change on the basis of one match when they're both highly likely to rack up over 1,000 appearances.
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That’s abit of understatement, as Ronaldo has been the key player (and top scorer of tournament) in all his 5 CL win, whereas Messi only feature heavily in 3 of those (the other 1 of them being a bit part player only)
 
I'll always prefer Ronaldo to Messi, given what he did for Utd, and the fact that I just like his more arrogant/cnutish personality (so sue me), in fact I'd say I'm incredibly biased towards Ronaldo as I don't particularly like Barcelona or Messi.

That said, I don't know how anyone can say with a serious face that out of the two, he's been the better player. Messi is just more talented and has, at his best, been much better than Ronaldo at his best. I guess there's an argument for longevity for Ronaldo but we haven't seen a 32/33 year old Messi yet so that's impossible to say.
 
Massive Spanner said:
I'll always prefer Ronaldo to Messi, given what he did for Utd, and the fact that I just like his more arrogant/cnutish personality (so sue me), in fact I'd say I'm incredibly biased towards Ronaldo as I don't particularly like Barcelona or Messi.

That said, I don't know how anyone can say with a serious face that out of the two, he's been the better player. Messi is just more talented and has, at his best, been much better than Ronaldo at his best. I guess there's an argument for longevity for Ronaldo but we haven't seen a 32/33 year old Messi yet so that's impossible to say.
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Messi appears to be better at trashing minnows. When it comes to the big games, Ronaldo has a much better record
 
Cal? said:
Messi appears to be better at trashing minnows. When it comes to the big games, Ronaldo has a much better record
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That's not true. Ronaldo has a better goal record in the latter stages of the CL (primarily due to brillant quotes against Juventus and Bayern) but generally, Messi scored more against the big teams. And this only measures goals, Messi obviously also contributed many other things against great teams without scoring (e.g. against City in 14/15):

Zehner said:
Quick research. Goals/goals per game of Cristiano and Messi against:

Spanish top teams:

Sevilla: M: 31/0.94 || R: 27/1.5
Atletico: M: 28/0.78 || R: 22/0.71
Real: M: 25/0.68 || R: ----
Barcelona: M: ---- / R: 17/0.53
Valencia: M: 24/0.8 || R: 15/0.83
Athletic: M: 24/0.73 || R: 17/0.94
Villarreal: M: 13/0.62 || R: 12/0.67

International top teams:

Arsenal: M: 9/1.5 || R: 6/0.4
Milan: M: 8/1.0 || R: 2/0.33
City: M: 6/1.0 || R: 5/0.36
Bayern: M: 4/0.8 || R: 9/1.29
Chelsea: M: 3/0.3 || R: 1/0.07
United: M: 2/0.5 || R: ----
Juventus: M: 2/0.4 || R: 10/1.43
Paris: M: 4/0.5 || R: 3/0.75
Inter: M: 0/--- || R: 1/0.33

So, in domestic top matches Messi seems to have more total goals but Ronaldo outperforms him in the goals per game department. Especially against the two other strongest teams in Spain, Atletico and Real/Barca, Messi beats Ronaldo in total goas and goals per game.
Internationally, Ronaldo's reputation as a big game player is based primarily on his two favorite opponents Bayern and Juventus which he totally destroyed goal-wise. Aside from them, Messi tends to have better records.
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Massive Spanner said:
I'll always prefer Ronaldo to Messi, given what he did for Utd, and the fact that I just like his more arrogant/cnutish personality (so sue me), in fact I'd say I'm incredibly biased towards Ronaldo as I don't particularly like Barcelona or Messi.

That said, I don't know how anyone can say with a serious face that out of the two, he's been the better player. Messi is just more talented and has, at his best, been much better than Ronaldo at his best. I guess there's an argument for longevity for Ronaldo but we haven't seen a 32/33 year old Messi yet so that's impossible to say.
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This, great post
 
Massive Spanner said:
I'll always prefer Ronaldo to Messi, given what he did for Utd, and the fact that I just like his more arrogant/cnutish personality (so sue me), in fact I'd say I'm incredibly biased towards Ronaldo as I don't particularly like Barcelona or Messi.

That said, I don't know how anyone can say with a serious face that out of the two, he's been the better player. Messi is just more talented and has, at his best, been much better than Ronaldo at his best. I guess there's an argument for longevity for Ronaldo but we haven't seen a 32/33 year old Messi yet so that's impossible to say.
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Ronaldinho might just be the most talented of all with the ball. Does that make him due for a GOAT consideration?
 
When do you expect a messi v ronaldo poll to become one-sided and remain that way?

A. within 2 years (Ronaldo crossing 35)
B. 2-5 years (Messi also crossing 35)
C. Beyond 5 years
D. Never
 
Lam said:
When do you expect a messi v ronaldo poll to become one-sided and remain that way?

A. within 2 years (Ronaldo crossing 35)
B. 2-5 years (Messi also crossing 35)
C. Beyond 5 years
D. Never
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Never. While they’re playing it would flunctuate depending on their form.
 
Zehner said:
That's not true. Ronaldo has a better goal record in the latter stages of the CL (primarily due to brillant quotes against Juventus and Bayern) but generally, Messi scored more against the big teams. And this only measures goals, Messi obviously also contributed many other things against great teams without scoring (e.g. against City in 14/15):
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:lol: Let's ignore Juve and Bayern who have consistently been 2 of the top teams, yet include Milan and Arsenal? Seriously? *joker not sure if serious meme*
 
adexkola said:
I see a lot of phrases in the form of "Ronaldo closing the "gap" on Messi". 2 questions then:

1. Is this solely based on Ballon D'Or + CL count? So does the "gap" increase if Messi wins either going forward?

2. Why are those the metrics being used for evaluation of said "gap"? The argument was never on Ballon D'Or count until recently.
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:lol: Give me a break. 3-4 years ago me suggesting Ronaldo was better was laughed at solely due to the "evidence" with the Ballon D'Or. Of course, now it is suddenly a meaningless award that Ronaldo is winning it?

And if Messi wins the WC, multiple Champions Leagues of course the gap would increase. Similarly if Messi didn't help Barca win the league this last season Ronaldo would be way ahead.
 
shamans said:
:lol: Give me a break. 3-4 years ago me suggesting Ronaldo was better was laughed at solely due to the "evidence" with the Ballon D'Or. Of course, now it is suddenly a meaningless award that Ronaldo is winning it?

And if Messi wins the WC, multiple Champions Leagues of course the gap would increase. Similarly if Messi didn't help Barca win the league this last season Ronaldo would be way ahead.
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It's a nonsensical metric. I would have said so years ago. Michael Owen is all the evidence you need.
 
adexkola said:
It's a nonsensical metric. I would have said so years ago. Michael Owen is all the evidence you need.
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Michael Owen was for those years one of the best strikers on planet earth. Did you even watch a young Owen pre injury? Late 90/early 000's Owen was up there with the best of the best.


And you may think it is nonsensical but professional players vote for that award so I think their opinion holds a bit more value?
 
Cal? said:
:lol: Let's ignore Juve and Bayern who have consistently been 2 of the top teams, yet include Milan and Arsenal? Seriously? *joker not sure if serious meme*
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Not sure what you are talking about since Juve and Bayern are in this statistics. How is that ignoring them?

You said that Ronaldo was better at beating strong teams and I've shown you that this is not the case. Bayern and Juve are the only teams against which Ronaldo was a better scorer (not taken into consideration general plays, by the way). Messi on the other hand is definitely better in clasicos, against Atletico, against City, against Chelsea and yes, also against Milan and Arsenal. If you don't count them, exclude them and it still is in favour of Messi. It doesn't matter where you draw the line, Messi simply has the better stats in this matter - although goal scoring is a less extreme proportion of his game compared to Cristiano.

If anything, Ronaldo is the better scorer against the mid class Spanish sides. Not by total goals but definitely by goals per 90 minutes.
 
Zehner said:
Not sure what you are talking about since Juve and Bayern are in this statistics. How is that ignoring them?

You said that Ronaldo was better at beating strong teams and I've shown you that this is not the case. Bayern and Juve are the only teams against which Ronaldo was a better scorer (not taken into consideration general plays, by the way). Messi on the other hand is definitely better in clasicos, against Atletico, against City, against Chelsea and yes, also against Milan and Arsenal. If you don't count them, exclude them and it still is in favour of Messi. It doesn't matter where you draw the line, Messi simply has the better stats in this matter - although goal scoring is a less extreme proportion of his game compared to Cristiano.

If anything, Ronaldo is the better scorer against the mid class Spanish sides. Not by total goals but definitely by goals per 90 minutes.
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Your quote
Internationally, Ronaldo's reputation as a big game player is based primarily on his two favorite opponents Bayern and Juventus which he totally destroyed goal-wise. Aside from them, Messi tends to have better records.
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Aside from Milan and Arsenal (which is basically a bit of stretch to call them "international top teams") Messi's record isn't that good at all.

Ronaldo's record against international top teams is much better than Messi's and any data manipulation to argue otherwise is just more mental gymnastics.

Also, I'm not even sure your data is correct. Ronaldo did score against United in that game refereed by Cnut Cuntir or whatever.
 
Cal? said:
Your quote

Aside from Milan and Arsenal (which is basically a bit of stretch to call them "international top teams") Messi's record isn't that good at all.

Ronaldo's record against international top teams is much better than Messi's and any data manipulation to argue otherwise is just more mental gymnastics.

Also, I'm not even sure your data is correct. Ronaldo did score against United in that game refereed by Cnut Cuntir or whatever.
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That is not ignoring, it is simply a fact. How else should I be describing the fact that he has superior records against Juve and Bayern and was inferior apart from that? I was by no means implying that these goals should be ignored or anything. You are getting paranoid and see a belittlement of Ronaldo behind every corner.

The data was gathered manually by me based on the source linked below and I simply didn't look up the data against the clubs both players played for, that's why United isn't included. I assure you that the remaining numbers are correct. As a sidenote, Ronaldo scored two and has had a ratio of 0.67 goals per game.

And no, his numbers against international top teams are not much better as the numbers show. It is only better against two teams against which he has very, very impressive record but apart from that, this is simply not true.


https://michelacosta.com/en/favorite-victims-messi-cristiano-ronaldo/
 
Zehner said:
That is not ignoring, it is simply a fact. How else should I be describing the fact that he has superior records against Juve and Bayern and was inferior apart from that? I was by no means implying that these goals should be ignored or anything. You are getting paranoid and see a belittlement of Ronaldo behind every corner.

The data was gathered manually by me based on the source linked below and I simply didn't look up the data against the clubs both players played for, that's why United isn't included. I assure you that the remaining numbers are correct. As a sidenote, Ronaldo scored two and has had a ratio of 0.67 goals per game.

And no, his numbers against international top teams are not much better as the numbers show. It is only better against two teams against which he has very, very impressive record but apart from that, this is simply not true.


https://michelacosta.com/en/favorite-victims-messi-cristiano-ronaldo/
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Fair enough, assuming your data is correct:

Spanish top teams:

Sevilla: M: 31/0.94 || R: 27/1.5
Atletico: M: 28/0.78 || R: 22/0.71
Real: M: 25/0.68 || R: ----
Barcelona: M: ---- / R: 17/0.53
Valencia: M: 24/0.8 || R: 15/0.83
Athletic: M: 24/0.73 || R: 17/0.94
Villarreal: M: 13/0.62 || R: 12/0.67

This basically shows Ronaldo has a higher scoring rate against everyone the minimal difference against AM. Messi has scored more because he played in La Liga for longer.

I'm aware Messi has a better El Clasico record.

International top teams:

Arsenal: M: 9/1.5 || R: 6/0.4
Milan: M: 8/1.0 || R: 2/0.33
City: M: 6/1.0 || R: 5/0.36
Bayern: M: 4/0.8 || R: 9/1.29
Chelsea: M: 3/0.3 || R: 1/0.07
United: M: 2/0.5 || R: ----
Juventus: M: 2/0.4 || R: 10/1.43
Paris: M: 4/0.5 || R: 3/0.75
Inter: M: 0/--- || R: 1/0.33

You seem to have included all the games in Ronaldo's United days, where he played as a winger for a few years.

Even then, his record is still better than Messi's.
 
Cal? said:
Fair enough, assuming your data is correct:

Spanish top teams:

Sevilla: M: 31/0.94 || R: 27/1.5
Atletico: M: 28/0.78 || R: 22/0.71
Real: M: 25/0.68 || R: ----
Barcelona: M: ---- / R: 17/0.53
Valencia: M: 24/0.8 || R: 15/0.83
Athletic: M: 24/0.73 || R: 17/0.94
Villarreal: M: 13/0.62 || R: 12/0.67

This basically shows Ronaldo has a higher scoring rate against everyone the minimal difference against AM. Messi has scored more because he played in La Liga for longer.

I'm aware Messi has a better El Clasico record.

International top teams:

Arsenal: M: 9/1.5 || R: 6/0.4
Milan: M: 8/1.0 || R: 2/0.33
City: M: 6/1.0 || R: 5/0.36
Bayern: M: 4/0.8 || R: 9/1.29
Chelsea: M: 3/0.3 || R: 1/0.07
United: M: 2/0.5 || R: ----
Juventus: M: 2/0.4 || R: 10/1.43
Paris: M: 4/0.5 || R: 3/0.75
Inter: M: 0/--- || R: 1/0.33

You seem to have included all the games in Ronaldo's United days, where he played as a winger for a few years.

Even then, his record is still better than Messi's.
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Is it not fair to point out that the rate statistics for la Liga include Messi's first few seasons? While Ronaldo entered la Liga in his prime.
 
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