The more Messi looks nowhere near as good as he did a few years ago, the more desperate his fan club gets.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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The thing is they can both shoot exceptionally well so we don't need to compare them in shooting ability. We have to use other tangibles, because statistics are not everything. Messi is an exceptional dribbler, Ronaldo is a good dribbler. Being a better dribbler, passer, creator all make Messi better.
Maradona and Cruyff didn't score as many as Puskas, Muller, Di Stefano but you would be a fool to think they were better than Maradona and Cruyff. Because goals alone do not make a player better than everyone else. Simple as that.
You're debating their attributes, I'm talking about their achievements.
Maradona and Cruyff happen to play much deeper, in different positions to the other 3, so it's not exactly a like for like comparison. If Maradona played false 9 like Messi did for most his career and had the same scoring record, he wouldn't be rated anywhere near as highly.
You've no idea what you're talking about do you?
It's the complete opposite. As Barcelona have declined, Messi's developed into the complete attacker. He's less likely to run at a defence now he can just unlock it with a defence splitting pass. You look at Messi between the ages of 18 and 22, 23-27 and 28 to now and he's gone through several changes, bit less explosive than he used to be, but uses the ball so much better.
Over the last few years he's become the ultimate team player, his passing has reach extraordinary levels in the final third, he's still scoring at obscene rates and he's become a more commanding figure in the middle of the park. Last season he near single handedly kept Barcelona in the title race, in terms of points won he had the most in all the top leagues, double anyone else. This season he's almost replicated that when everyone thought losing Neymar would bury all that burden on Messi again.
The real irony is Messi's an even better player these days and not winning the Ballon d'Or, Ronaldo has gone the other way to the point he's become a fully fledged centre forward and he's reaping all the rewards.
What is it with Messi fans? Is it some hidden mind control in the youtube videos you watch? It's the surety you lot have of your opinion in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary that I find incredible.You've no idea what you're talking about do you?
It's the complete opposite. As Barcelona have declined, Messi's developed into the complete attacker. He's less likely to run at a defence now he can just unlock it with a defence splitting pass. You look at Messi between the ages of 18 and 22, 23-27 and 28 to now and he's gone through several changes, bit less explosive than he used to be, but uses the ball so much better.
Over the last few years he's become the ultimate team player, his passing has reach extraordinary levels in the final third, he's still scoring at obscene rates and he's become a more commanding figure in the middle of the park. Last season he near single handedly kept Barcelona in the title race, in terms of points won he had the most in all the top leagues, double anyone else. This season he's almost replicated that when everyone thought losing Neymar would bury all that burden on Messi again.
The real irony is Messi's an even better player these days and not winning the Ballon d'Or, Ronaldo has gone the other way to the point he's become a fully fledged centre forward and he's reaping all the rewards.
The footballing world voting Ronaldo the better player 4 out of the last 5 years, yet somehow, everyone is wrong except you Messi followers?
As I already explained previously, Messi has played less games in the Champions League than Ronaldo. Hence, although he has scored less goals, he has a better goals-per-game ratio (despite not playing as a forward for the majority of this time). Similarly, their assists-per-game ratio in the CL is almost identical, with Messi absolutely miles ahead in Spanish domestic football.
The situation is this:
(i) Messi quite demonstrably and clearly has a better skillset than Ronaldo. No-one even questions this. Messi is a much better dribbler and passer, he has better control, first touch, he contributes far more to the game in general, other than merely statistics, as Rio Ferdinand said on TV recently. Ronaldo is a pure poacher, a brilliant goalscorer, but no serious person will suggest that he's a better footballer than Messi. Therefore, Messi is absolutely central to everything that Barcelona do, whereas Ronaldo is more frequently on the periphery of a game, as is easily observable, and as has been observed by the person who used to give him a lift to training at Man United!
(ii) Messi has quite demonstrably outperformed Ronaldo in Spanish domestic football, as I have already shown here:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/messi-v-ronaldo.400526/page-248#post-22472596
Outperformed him in every conceivably statistical way possible, even in areas where he is at a disadvantage due to his position on the field. When Messi played in a better team, he outperformed Ronaldo, and it was continually thrown in his face that he was in the better team. Now he is in the worse team, and he's still outperforming Ronaldo, and proving to be more instrumental than ever.
(iii) I don't believe the quality of a player should be judged on what they have won, but Messi has won far more in his career than Ronaldo, and when they've been head-to-head in the Spanish domestic league, Barcelona have won far more, even when they've had a worse team!
(iv) Messi has scored more goals than Ronaldo, despite the fact that he plays much deeper, contributes far more in other areas, and Ronaldo's game is almost entirely geared to scoring from close range. Also, as I mentioned previously, Messi does not insist on taking every penalty, is not in the box for corners; ie. does not play as a central striker or poacher. Also, Messi has not only scored more goals than Ronaldo, he also scores better goals, that are more difficult to execute, far more regularly. For example, Messi just equalled the La Liga record for free-kick goals, and has scored far more individual efforts that few other players could possibly pull off.
(v) Messi has outperformed and outscored Ronaldo in the El Clasico games by a considerable distance (see: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/messi-v-ronaldo.400526/page-248#post-22472596), and even more so in the most important games. Ronaldo has only been on the winning side four times out of 19 in El Clasico games in the league and Champions League, and one of those was an end of season victory when Barcelona had already effectively won the league title (like this week's game).
(vi) Ronaldo has performed very well in the Champions League, but if you look at the figures then his performance per game in statistical terms is marginally worse than Messi for goals, and marginally better for assists. Of course, this statistical basis alone cannot tell the whole story of what they contribute to the game. It would be hard to cite performances from Ronaldo in the Champions League such as Messi's against Man United in the final, Bayern Munich in the semi-final, and Real themselves in the semi-final, in which he single-handedly took the game away from world-class opposition. Ronaldo rather scores a lot of goals from close range, which is very admirable, but he could be replaced by any world-class forward, and eventually will be. Whereas Messi is irreplaceable.
(vii) The only conceivable argument you could possibly make for Ronaldo being better, as I've said previously, would be if Real win the Champions League. You could then state that he has won the Champions League more than Messi, which makes him better, and put forward some spurious argument about him performing better in big games.
You would then also have to ignore the fact that Messi has dominated Spanish football and continually outperformed Ronaldo, has won more overall, has won far more in Spanish domestic football over these years than Ronaldo, or attempt to deflate the importance of this, while also amplifying the importance of Ronaldo having one more Champions League winners medal, and explaining away the fact that Messi has outperformed him in domestic football and head-to-head matches, which constitutes around 80% of their careers.
You could also mention that Portugal won the Euros, and claim that this was primarily due to Ronaldo, despite only playing well in one game, and ignore the fact that Messi's performances in the Copa America and World Cup have been far better, and he's won two player of the tournament awards.
So if you want to claim that Ronaldo is the better player, you either have to resort to point (vii), or else base it on sheer personal preference, with absolutely no evidential basis whatsoever. There are no other options open to you. But you have a right to your opinion, ultimately football is a game of opinions, but the only evidence to back up your opinion is point (vii).
Once upon a time the Ballon d'Or may have been the best player in the world, not anymore. It's pretty much now given to the most high profile player who's team wins the Champions League.
Look at the odds on the 2019 running, it's apparently a two horce race between Salah and Ronaldo. Liverpool and Real Madrid are (likely) heading to the CL final, yet both sides are sitting in 3rd spot in their domestic league with no other silverware to play for.
What happens if Roma or Bayern do the unthinkable and turn the results over, who do you think becomes the favourite for the Ballon d'Or?
Let's put another spin on it, if Ronaldo was that much better than Messi then why have Real Madrid faired so poorly domestically over the past decade? Real have a far superior side now the Barca golden era has reached its end and they've still only won the title once in the last five years despite being in the running for a potential fourth CL in that period.
Explain.
So when Messi won it in 2010 and 2012 without winning the CL, it was well deserved, yet when Ronaldo wins it whilst winning the CL, it's just "the most high profile player who's team wins the Champions League"?
I have never said Ronaldo is "much better" than Messi.
Attributes are what defines who is a better footballer, not who is the more successful footballer. Otherwise Wes Brown or Jonny Evans would be seen as better players than the likes of Zola. Many PL titles vs zero.
Success does not always determine the better player. Besides their achievements are nearly identical.
Another horrid game from Ronaldo, when he doesn't score he is pretty much useless.
Yup, Ronaldo also plays with two of some of the highest scoring defenders in CL history
Perfectly executed overhead kick aside
- Ronaldo’s pretty much totally reliant on his team providing the service for him.It's not a coincidence one is going to his 6th Champions League final while the other's played in 3. Today's game aside that is
Let the tears come and may they continue for a long time. It's going to be hilarious watching some United fans here wanting Ronaldo to score if Liverpool make the final.
Let the tears come and may they continue for a long time. It's going to be hilarious watching some United fans here wanting Ronaldo to score if Liverpool make the final.
How the heck does that prove your point?
You sure you're not getting a little too emotional over this whole saga?
If he scores the winner in the final he has 16 goals and decided the biggest tie, that’s football. You need a bit of luck to be the best.
Horrendous again. If he doesn't get his tap-ins to mask his performances, this gets heightened. I don't know what this way exactly. Even had he scored, it shouldn't mask a match this poor.
The previous game against Bayern (the 1st leg) was the single worst game I've seen from an elite player at a big stage, in quite a while. The word horrendous couldn't describe the 1st game. It was as if he had a bet on Bayern to win. Tonight wasn't that much better.
We aren't talking about his sitter which could have easily been costly; it's the overall performance.
The team around him is sensational, though, and full of leaders. He can play as poorly as he has in 2 consecutive games and they'd beat the German champions.
The previous game against Bayern (the 1st leg) was the single worst game I've seen from an elite player at a big stage, in quite a while. The word horrendous couldn't describe the 1st game. It was as if he had a bet on Bayern to win. Tonight wasn't that much better.
We aren't talking about his sitter which could have easily been costly; it's the overall performance.
The team around him is sensational, though, and full of leaders. He can play as poorly as he has in 2 consecutive games and they'd beat the German champions.
It was a pretty poor performance, but let's not pretend Messi is great all the time.
Hilarious how over the top you are with that game. Miles better than Messi in Rome for starts.and alongside a striker that's now scored an impressive...11 goals this season
No, not emotional at all. It's just actually going to be very funny to see who some people here will root for in the final if Liverpool make it
It was a pretty poor performance, but let's not pretend Messi is great all the time.
He's Defintely better than THIS all the time. There isn't a single game that Messi has played over the past 10 years that's even close to being as bad as this, or one as close to being as bad as the first leg.
He's literally played 2 consecutive games against Bayern that are worse than anything Messi has done over the past decade. Back to back.
Its...stunning.
Messi in Rome was ten times better than your idol was tonight. And it isn't even close.
How a box player can even be compared to Messi is absurd
He offers nothing to the team other than getting on the end of chances, overrated as a player but still a great goalscorer and box player
He offers nothing to the team other than getting on the end of chances, overrated as a player but still a great goalscorer and box player
It's not. Real have been better than Barcelona for a few years now.
I know your implication is that Ronaldo is so much better that he's taken his teams to the final while Messi has fallen short. It is of course a ridiculous time to imply such a thing given he's been anonymous in both legs of the semi final v a top class Bayern Munich side and yet they've still qualified for the final.
Don’t mind him, he says that any time Ronaldo doesn’t score. It’s his go to delusion.
Ronaldo made his runs, got little service, tracked back, made nice through balls for his teammates. His side are through to the final for the 3rd straight year.
‘wOrSt GaMe IvE sEeN bY a PlAyEr’
The salt is real
Just how Messi was horrid in Rome? or how about Chelsea in 2012? im sorry who is going to the final again ? for the third time in a row ? I know what you will say " he did not score in the semi finals" Madrid would not even be here had he not been on the team and that is FACT. They also would not have been in 3 back to back or have won the other 2 had it not been for him either. So please stop using this game as a "reason" to day "Messi" is better when we all know he is not. Good day sir.
By cheer luck, or are we back to pretending this Madrid team is actually great? When Messi had the greatest team of all time that could win games without him being great did they get to 3 finals in a row? Or are you pretending Ronaldo has had better teammates than Messi for the past 12 years? In their primes the difference between the team around them was bigger than ever and noone cared about it then...
The fact one's been to 6 CL finals while the other's been to 3 is indeed a reflection of how they've performed in the CL knockouts throughout the years. It just so happens that while Madrid were getting pretty unlucky in some semifinals in 2012 or 2013 with him being great, they got that luck now without him really showing up. For so many games, that tends to even itself out.
Goals in quarters, semis and final of the Champions League:
Ronaldo - 40
Messi - 16
Ronaldo has more assists too. And no amount of pretending about Messi controlling the midfield will make up for that huge difference given their main role on the pitch is directly contributing to their team's goals
How many times has ronaldo won the treble?
That stat is shocking. Thank you for sharing. The amount of ignorance with Messi fanboys is the most disgusting out of any sport. They just can not admit the truth and fact of who the best player has been over the past years and by the time they retire overall. Any Ronaldo performance they will use to make them feel better that Messi is better. Give it a rest lads.
Who will you root for in the final?
No pretending. You don't stand on the cusp of winning the Champions League 3 times in a row if you aren't a great team.
It is a reflection of the quality of their teams as evidenced by the fact Ronaldo only has that numerical advantage because of the recent seasons where they've dominated the CL. Simply put, Ronaldo plays for the better team. No matter which side of the debate you come down on that should be the one thing all of us agree on.
Ronaldo at his best can win a double.
Messi at his best can win a treble, twice.
Messi at his best can win a treble, twice.
Ronaldo doesn’t extend his streak to scoring in 379 consecutive CL games and people like Don/Messi homers are lifting the ‘Ronaldo didn’t score’ trophy and celebrating. Let that sink in.
@Peyroteo let them keep making excuses as to why Ronaldo is in his 3rd straight finals and Messi is sitting on his couch watching. It’s never a 2way road when using such logic. Ronaldo got carried by his team which starter for starter has the lesser players compared to Barca. But the years Barca had Xavi and them? It was all Messi bro hahah
They were a great team last year. They most certainly haven't been a great team this year or in 2016.
Now he's playing for the better team, for their whole careers it's the opposite both at club and national team level. Especially in their prime where the difference between the players around them was bigger than ever.
I've generally agreed with a lot of what you've said in this thread, but you're off the mark here. Xavi was excellent for Barcelona pre-Guardiola.
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