That's all I wanted from you Messi followers. I have no issue with people who think Messi is better, only with those who claim there's no comparison.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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That's all I wanted from you Messi followers. I have no issue with people who think Messi is better, only with those who claim there's no comparison.
Why would it not be mentioned? They have pretty similar records, difference between them in Clasicos is mainly that Messi played against weaker Madrid teams and that Ronaldo finished almost half of his Clasicos with Madrid having just 10 men on the pitch.
Yeah them statements are ridiculous.
Since Ronaldo moved to Real Messi scored 19 goals in the clasico while Ronaldo scored 17, but Messi gave 10 more assists.
This whole thread is about Ronaldo v Messi.
We mention Ronaldo's better big game record and you replied with this El Clasico v CL L16 comment, so it's logical to assume you're arguing for Messi's big game record by claiming that El Clasicos are all bigger games than CL L16 games?
But Ronaldo's big game record is not about CL L16 games!
It's not about if the Clasico is a bigger game than a CL game, it's about whether the Clasico is a big game period. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
And again, where Ronaldo's big game CL record begins and ends is completely irrelevant.
I don't know, but from what I have seen it hasn't been, that's the whole point. I could go back and list the times these big games have been mentioned and point out all the times the Clasico is not included, but I truly can't be bothered. But surely you must know that you and a few others have spoken about the CL knock out stages and WC's way, way more than El Clasico's when referencing " the most important" games?
Which again proves my point of why only looking at certain games when judging a player isn't a very good idea.
Messi also played more games and playing on Madrid's side of the Clasico and on Barcelona's side hasn't been quite the same thing in recent years.
Yes, that's because they're obviously more important and the CL knockout games have a similar level of importance between them while the importance of the different Clasicos varies a lot from game to game.
It is a good idea as long as you look at the games in their full context. Looking at all games the same way not only isn't a good idea, it makes no sense at all.
I don't remember Ronaldo missing a clasico except the return leg in the Supercup this year and I've no idea what you mean with that. If you were talking about who had better teammates Messi had a better team around him from 2008 to 2012/2013 while this current Real Madrid team is better, if you're talking about Real Madrid playing with 10 men I could say for example that some of Ronaldo's goals against Bayern came when Bayern was playing with 10 men.
Messi has performed better in the clasico than Ronaldo as stats show, deal with it.
Missed the copa final a few years ago and still a couple of others in the supercup I think. You ignored that Messi played more games for obvious reasons, you ignore that Barcelona's defense has been better than Madrid's defense for obvious reasons. And Messi only had a better team around him up to 2013? Right... Messi didn't play in a great team before then, he spent his prime playing for the freaking greatest team that's ever played football. The core of that team pretty much won 2 Euros and 1 World Cup without him even being in the team... and you're actually trying to compare it to Madrid's current team where most players are playing like crap. It's a joke
No it's a joke that you can't admit that Messi performed better than Ronaldo in the clasico and your embarassing narrative that Real is a one man team and that their midfield gets dominated every match
Everyone can see the stats and everyone will agree with me, if you don't I don't care honestly.
Yeah you don't care about my opinion, that's why all your posts on redcafe are replying to me about it.
Did I say who performed better in Clasicos? I think it's pretty close, if you think Messi's done better that's fair enough. If you justify it the way you did then it's not so fair.
'your embarassing narrative that Real is a one man team and that their midfield gets dominated every match' - What?? I never said this so you're either an idiot that completely misunderstood what I said or a dishonest person who doesn't even care. Either way, there's no way point arguing.
I didn't say that we should look at all the games in the same way though. What I said was that only looking at certain games when judging a player isn't a very good idea, because I feel it's pretty obvious that looking at all the games will give you a much better answer. (which I've said so many times now that even I'm sick of it)
Otherwise I don't see why we can't just say that since the CL and WC finals are games that matters much more than any others, and since Messi has been brilliant in all the CL finals he's played and actually been in a WC final, then he's a MUCH better player than Ronaldo because Ronaldo hasn't been very good at all in those games, or not even played them. Is the discussion over now and we can close the thread? Or is it perhaps better if we look at a much larger sample size (their whole careers for example) to determine how good they are?
I do agree that we should look at the games in their full context though, because scoring a goal in some games and being on the winning team doesn't automatically mean that you've put in a WC performance.
Yes but when the hell did I say the opposite?
For the last time, you look at all the freaking games, you just give more importance to the ones that DO HAVE more importance. Is that such a hard concept to understand? The games and competitions that have more importance should be given more importance when judging a player... I mean, how the actual feck can anyone bloody disagree with that?
Your examples caricaturing and completely misrepresenting what I said are embarassing.
Was that even an attempt of trying to replicate my arguments? fecking hell. I'm not going to repeat them again. That's just completely wrong all the way through.
Do you genuinely believe it's been close? It's pretty obvious to me that Messi has outperformed Ronaldo in the Clasico and that extends to when they faced each other when Ronaldo was at United too.
Not that it's a giant deciding factor for whom is best, but it's clear as night and day to me.
Ronaldo does hold the all time record of scoring in consecutive El Clasicos, so he can’t have done too badly.
I think taking into account how those games have gone during that time, Ronaldo's had a much more difficult task than Messi.
Messi's had better performances but Barcelona usually dominating those games and having a 1 man advantage often has played its part in that. Pretty hard to compare them directly considering how different they usually play in those games especially although I wouldn't really argue against saomeone saying Messi's been better, just think the numbers behind their performances need context.
Some people loves haircuts and stuff.
Big goal tonight, Barca in touching distance of the double now.
Come on, a 0-0 would have sealed the double.
Technically it is still mathematically possible for Atletico to win the league. May only be Deportivo but they still need to win and he scored. It is pressure time for them the next few games as they are almost Champions.
No they do not, a 0-0 draw will see Barca win La Liga.
My mistake, the Sky Sports app hasn’t updated the table yet
Still had to not lose and he scored
hahaWell done, blowing past most of La Liga as usual.My mistake, the Sky Sports app hasn’t updated the table yet
Still had to not lose and he scored
Yes but Ronaldo and Real Madrid play against the exact same teams as Barcelona and Messi in the league so I don't understand what your point is?
Yeah, and noone did ever talk about this record before Ronaldo broke it. So why is it suddenly important? Because it is Ronaldo who has it now? Who held it before him anyway? Did you ever talk about that player and lauded him for being such a good consecutive clasico scorer?
That's what people mean when they say you guys are moving the goal posts. You look for something Cristiano currently excels in and then pretend it is the most decisive attribute for a top player.
"Goals in CL knockout stages" is a similar case. I've never heard anyone argue that Zidane was a better player than Ronaldinho because he scored more in the important games of his CL winning campaign. At most, such statistics were a "side note". Like a journalist pointing out that Klose had already scored four goals in the group stage of a WC but still waits for his first in the knockout stages. The sudden importance of this stat coincidently arose when Ronaldo was on his crazy goal scoring run last season.
It's just so superficial. You clearly see people have an agenda and only search for arguments for their favourite player and gratefully accept everything that is provided to them as long as it speaks for Cristiano.
Here?
As for looking at games in their full context, when has that ever been done in this thread? All that seem to matter is how many goals they score, which games they score in and if their teams win.
No it's not hard to understand, and I've already said that I agree with you to a certain extent. But you need to come to peace with the fact that not everyone will point to some specific games over two 1000 game careers and say "look, these games proves this guy is better!" Especially since this is a fecking team sport and their individual perfomances AND the number of important games they play will rely heavily on what their team mates do or doesn't do, which you of all people pointed out a few posts ago.
Hence all the "just look at them play" comments in here which have been and always will be by far and away the best argument in this thread, and it still would be the best even if every other argument was actually valid and reasonable instead of complete BS like they are now.
It is the exact argument your making, only a very extreme version of it so no I'm not misrepresenting anything. Still doesn't matter though since I think it's pretty obvious that I was being sarcastic to prove my point. Lighten up.
Yet you, being clearly so above this and completely unbiased are even worse when it comes to taking numbers out of your ass... How can YOU seriously be in this thread and call people out on being biased for fecks sake?
You're the biggest Messi fan in this whole place and we have Barcelona fans here.
You're right that scoring in consecutive Clasicos is completely irrelevant, goals in the knockouts of the Champions League is absolutely not the case.
So Messi is the more consistent footballer this season. Big deal.
Where was he against Roma?
Very weak argument. One game in the CL is not a deciding factor. Ronaldo was poor for 3 months, Messi was poor for one game. It is obvious which is better. Ronaldo was poor vs Bayern. And scores a penalty to win vs Juve and you and others go on as if he single handedly won that game. Like the guy above said, shifting goal posts to suit your argument.
You are forgertting his great assist in Marcelo's goal
Hatrick Messi. But it was only Deportivo blah blah. Take Messi out of that team and they look poor. Wouldn't have won the league this season without him. No way does Barcelona win the league with Ronaldo instead of Messi.
The Messi brigade talking about shifting goal posts.
Anyway, for the Barca fans amongst you, congrats on the double.
Real probably would keep going out in the CL QF with Messi instead of Ronaldo.
What's your point?
I've repeatedly said time and time again the same things and you repeatedly take it out of context. You look at the CL games to take conclusions of out of the CL games. Obviously you don't judge their whole careers on it. No fecking shit.
When I say Ronaldo's better because he's outperformed Messi in the CL and internationally, I'm not discarding the league performances. There's just not a big enough difference there that's big enough to make up for that gap given the huge difference in importance between the competitions.
Then read my posts, obviously you aren't going to analyze 1000 games individually and put them all into context, but in particular games it's absolutely what should be done.
No... you need to come to peace with the fact I have never said that.
But they will take the bigger games into bigger consideration, if it doesn't happen now it will happen in the future when they're both retired like it's happened with every single all time great player in history.
No, the 'watch them play' argument is stupid and makes no sense at all since it does not take into account the importance of said matches into consideration... you watch them play, yes. Then you put that performance in context of all the other circumstances around the player. The team they're playing for, the opponent, how big the game is, how big the competition is, etc.
No, it is not even an exaggeration. It is not my argument at all. It's bullshit and it's tiring to repeat myself over and over again while continuously having people pretending I said things I didn't say.
Most fans and importantly pundits who influence such fans dont watch league matches day in day out.
Messi has probably had one of his best league campaigns relative to the teams strength. But Balon dors etc are decide on Cup competitions and not league so I doubt he will win any significant award.
Messi has probably had one of his best league campaigns relative to the teams strength. But Balon dors etc are decide on Cup competitions and not league so I doubt he will win any significant award.
Who's the idiot that made that poll?
If Real Madrid were offered a straight swap deal, Messi for Ronaldo, do you think they'd want to take it?Real probably would keep going out in the CL QF with Messi instead of Ronaldo.
What's your point?
If Barcelona were offered a straight swap deal, Ronaldo for Messi, do you think they'd want to take it?
The answer is obvious. Real Madrid couldn't get the contracts signed fast enough, while Barcelona would obviously completely reject the idea, and their fans would be apoplectic if it ever happened.
Real fans wouldn't believe their luck if they managed to get Messi. Do you know why? Not merely because he is significantly better than Ronaldo, although this is true, but because they've suffered at his hands time and time again, and have watched him dominate Spanish football during the period that both he and Ronaldo have been in La Liga as rivals.
If you believe otherwise then you're just not capable of being objective.
It's not about numbers, forget the numbers for one moment. Messi has time and time again played outstanding against Real Madrid, not just because of his goals or assists (I think assist statistics are pretty much pointless) but by his all round performance. I honestly think if Ronaldo had scored a few more simple consolation goals and was level or higher in goals in the Clasico that you and Cal would be telling us Ronaldo has been better in them too.
But fair enough, it may have been a strained, heavily caveated admission that Messi could be argued to be better - but I think that's the closest we're gonna get from you.
Yet you, being clearly so above this and completely unbiased are even worse when it comes to taking numbers out of your ass... How can YOU seriously be in this thread and call people out on being biased for fecks sake?
You're the biggest Messi fan in this whole place and we have Barcelona fans here.
You're right that scoring in consecutive Clasicos is completely irrelevant, goals in the knockouts of the Champions League is absolutely not the case.
See, I don't deny that I want Messi to succeed. I think he is by far the better player, deserves much more credit than he gets in recent years and it annoys me. The difference between the two of us is that I root for Messi solely because of his footballing abilities. I don't really care about the person, just like I don't care about Cristiano. If Messi changed his playing style and became a worse player, then I will have no problem of admitting Neymar exemplarily is better. I already explained countless times why I think he outperformed and still clearly outperforms Ronaldo through creating much more impact for his team, there is no need for doing it again. I always sticked to these arguments, you won't see me repeating stupid claims just because they speak for Messi as exemplarily Cal? does it time and time again. You may disagree with my views on football and even think they are ridiculous or that I have no clue about the sports but my arguments are consistent.
What annoys me and brings me into posting here much more than I intend to is the level of double standards in the arguments for Cristiano. I simply can't stand it. If you rate him higher than Messi, okay, but then apply your criteria on every player and don't change it in order to place him above the Argentinan. But as countless other posters already pointed out, you constantly move the goal posts just to fit your agenda. That's what people call fan boys. If you allege me of being the same, please show me one occasion where I applied double standards.
You exemplarily constantly point out how much Ronaldo contributes and creates through his less fancy but highly efficient/effective runs and positional awareness. Yet you get angry when people compare him to Gerd Müller who is the grand master of this discipline. So either you are being quite unfair to Müller or you use different criteria on him than on Cristiano.
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