Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[The holy trinity 68]

Just dwell on those numbers for a few minutes and think for yourself what the difference behind them might be... can you actually not see what's wrong with that argument or do you simply not even care anymore?

This has gone from a biased discussion to throwing shit at a wall and seeing what sticks.

I was pointing out that Messi doesn’t only score all his goals against the likes of Getafe like Cal was making out.

Please read the context and the response i am replying to before commenting. I wasn’t just showing Messi scoring more goals than Ronaldo, because yes Messi has been in La Liga for longer.

But you need to realise that Messi has more goals against Athletico than Ronaldo, and Sevilla, and Real than what Ron does against the former two and Barca. With some of them being when Messi was 21 and under.

Ronaldo arrived in La Liga at his prime, Messi was playing in La Liga way before his own prime.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

He scores a lot of goals in league games and struggles in the CL in recent seasons.

They are the crucial words. The discussion is about their entire career not just the last 2 to 3 seasons.

 

[Peyroteo]

I was pointing out that Messi doesn’t only score all his goals against the likes of Getafe like Cal was making out.

Please read the context and the response i am replying to before commenting. I wasn’t just showing Messi scoring more goals than Ronaldo, because yes Messi has been in La Liga for longer.

I did read it and I also read the conclusions you got out of those numbers which is the troubling part.

 

[Cal?]

Ronaldo arrived in La Liga at his prime, Messi was playing in La Liga way before his own prime.

Ronaldo arrived at a struggling Real side, Messi was playing for a very dominant side the moment he made the first team

 

[Cal?]

They are the crucial words. The discussion is about their entire career not just the last 2 to 3 seasons.

3 seasons is not enough? How long does he have to choke in the CL QF for it to affect how you rate him?

 

[Zehner]

Quick research. Goals/goals per game of Cristiano and Messi against:

Spanish top teams:

Sevilla: M: 31/0.94 || R: 27/1.5
Atletico: M: 28/0.78 || R: 22/0.71
Real: M: 25/0.68 || R: ----
Barcelona: M: ---- / R: 17/0.53
Valencia: M: 24/0.8 || R: 15/0.83
Athletic: M: 24/0.73 || R: 17/0.94
Villarreal: M: 13/0.62 || R: 12/0.67

International top teams:

Arsenal: M: 9/1.5 || R: 6/0.4
Milan: M: 8/1.0 || R: 2/0.33
City: M: 6/1.0 || R: 5/0.36
Bayern: M: 4/0.8 || R: 9/1.29
Chelsea: M: 3/0.3 || R: 1/0.07
United: M: 2/0.5 || R: ----
Juventus: M: 2/0.4 || R: 10/1.43
Paris: M: 4/0.5 || R: 3/0.75
Inter: M: 0/--- || R: 1/0.33

So, in domestic top matches Messi seems to have more total goals but Ronaldo outperforms him in the goals per game department. Especially against the two other strongest teams in Spain, Atletico and Real/Barca, Messi beats Ronaldo in total goas and goals per game.
Internationally, Ronaldo's reputation as a big game player is based primarily on his two favorite opponents Bayern and Juventus which he totally destroyed goal-wise. Aside from them, Messi tends to have better records.

 

[Cal?]

Quick research. Goals/goals per game of Cristiano and Messi against:

Spanish top teams:

Sevilla: M: 31/0.94 || R: 27/1.5
Atletico: M: 28/0.78 || R: 22/0.71
Real: M: 25/0.68 || R: ----
Barcelona: M: ---- / R: 17/0.53
Valencia: M: 24/0.8 || R: 15/0.83
Athletic: M: 24/0.73 || R: 17/0.94
Villarreal: M: 13/0.62 || R: 12/0.67

International top teams:

Arsenal: M: 9/1.5 || R: 6/0.4
Milan: M: 8/1.0 || R: 2/0.33
City: M: 6/1.0 || R: 5/0.36
Bayern: M: 4/0.8 || R: 9/1.29
Chelsea: M: 3/0.3 || R: 1/0.07
United: M: 2/0.5 || R: ----
Juventus: M: 2/0.4 || R: 10/1.43
Paris: M: 4/0.5 || R: 3/0.75
Inter: M: 0/--- || R: 1/0.33

So, in domestic top matches Messi seems to have more total goals but Ronaldo outperforms him in the goals per game department. Especially against the two other strongest teams in Spain, Atletico and Real/Barca, Messi beats Ronaldo in total goas and goals per game.
Internationally, Ronaldo's reputation as a big game player is based primarily on his two favorite opponents Bayern and Juventus which he totally destroyed goal-wise. Aside from them, Messi tends to have better records.

Surely you have to agree that Arsenal and Milan are not really on par with the rest of those teams you listed for most of the last decade...

Also, there's something wrong with those stats, Ronaldo did score against United in the game with that Cnut ref?

 

[Peyroteo]

Quick research. Goals/goals per game of Cristiano and Messi against:

Spanish top teams:

Sevilla: M: 31/0.94 || R: 27/1.5
Atletico: M: 28/0.78 || R: 22/0.71
Real: M: 25/0.68 || R: ----
Barcelona: M: ---- / R: 17/0.53
Valencia: M: 24/0.8 || R: 15/0.83
Athletic: M: 24/0.73 || R: 17/0.94
Villarreal: M: 13/0.62 || R: 12/0.67

International top teams:

Arsenal: M: 9/1.5 || R: 6/0.4
Milan: M: 8/1.0 || R: 2/0.33
City: M: 6/1.0 || R: 5/0.36
Bayern: M: 4/0.8 || R: 9/1.29
Chelsea: M: 3/0.3 || R: 1/0.07
United: M: 2/0.5 || R: ----
Juventus: M: 2/0.4 || R: 10/1.43
Paris: M: 4/0.5 || R: 3/0.75
Inter: M: 0/--- || R: 1/0.33

So, in domestic top matches Messi seems to have more total goals but Ronaldo outperforms him in the goals per game department. Especially against the two other strongest teams in Spain, Atletico and Real/Barca, Messi beats Ronaldo in total goas and goals per game.
Internationally, Ronaldo's reputation as a big game player is based primarily on his two favorite opponents Bayern and Juventus which he totally destroyed goal-wise. Aside from them, Messi tends to have better records.

A lot of those numbers are due to the way the games are distributed throughout their careers and due to the form of those teams at the time rather than how good they've been against them. City, Arsenal, Atletico and Milan 12 years ago aren't the same as of now for example, playing against them as an 18 year old or as a 30 year old isn't the same, playing against them in the group stages of the CL or in the final isn't the same, etc.

Nice stats anyway but not sure what to get from it.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

It keeps going round in circles back to goals only.

All the stats and figures we all throw around, we can all agree that they are very close in goal terms.

That is why we start to look at other categories, such as assists, creativity, key passes, successful dribbles, successful passes, solo goals etc.

Even if Ronaldo is slightly ahead in the goals department, which is debatable considering Messi has a superior goals per game ratio.

Goals can’t be the only measure otherwise Gerd Muller and Puskas would be held in a higher regard than Maradona and Cruyff.

Klose has the most goals in WC history, but he isn’t the greatest player in WC history.

Even just sitting and watching games, without looking at the stats, a random person who isn’t clued up on football would be able to point to Messi as the best player on the pitch. Ronaldo would not be noticed as the best player on the pitch. Maybe the best goal scorer on the pitch but not the best player.

It is like when we all played football as kids for school and the best player for the school team is not always the top scorer. At my school the top scorer for all 5 years was not the best player in the year.

Goals alone do not make the best player.

 

[Cal?]

It keeps going round in circles back to goals only.

All the stats and figures we all throw around, we can all agree that they are very close in goal terms.

That is why we start to look at other categories, such as assists, creativity, key passes, successful dribbles, successful passes, solo goals etc.

Even if Ronaldo is slightly ahead in the goals department, which is debatable considering Messi has a superior goals per game ratio.

Goals can’t be the only measure otherwise Gerd Muller and Puskas would be held in a higher regard than Maradona and Cruyff.

Klose has the most goals in WC history, but he isn’t the greatest player in WC history.

Even just sitting and watching games, without looking at the stats, a random person who isn’t clued up on football would be able to point to Messi as the best player on the pitch. Ronaldo would not be noticed as the best player on the pitch. Maybe the best goal scorer on the pitch but not the best player.

It is like when we all played football as kids for school and the best player for the school team is not always the top scorer. At my school the top scorer for all 5 years was not the best player in the year.

Goals alone do not make the best player.

Maradona is rated so highly mainly due to the most people believing "he won 86 on his own".

The point isn't Ronaldo scores more, but he scores more in bigger games.

Klose has a great record in WC history, but very few of them were big goals in the big moments.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Maradona is rated so highly mainly due to the most people believing "he won 86 on his own".

The point isn't Ronaldo scores more, but he scores more in bigger games.

Klose has a great record in WC history, but very few of them were big goals in the big moments.

Could you or someone put the list of big goals in big games in both of their careers?

Would be interesting to see unbiased stats, and to see if it even holds true that Ronaldo has scored more big goals in more big games. Big games are not just latter stages of the CL. Goals vs Barca, Real Madrid, Athletico, CDR finals, WC, Euro, Copa America etc. I don’t think there will be much difference between the two.

 

[HorrorFan07]

Ronaldo fans constantly having to use stats sums this argument up.

In the days of Bestie, Maradona, Pele etc you didn't need stats, you just watched the player and judged them down the pub. Ronaldo fans would get chinned down the pub if they brought out all this stat bollox.

 

[Peyroteo]

It keeps going round in circles back to goals only.

All the stats and figures we all throw around, we can all agree that they are very close in goal terms.

That is why we start to look at other categories, such as assists, creativity, key passes, successful dribbles, successful passes, solo goals etc.

Even if Ronaldo is slightly ahead in the goals department, which is debatable considering Messi has a superior goals per game ratio.

Goals can’t be the only measure otherwise Gerd Muller and Puskas would be held in a higher regard that Maradona and Cruyff.

Klose has the most goals in WC history, but he isn’t the greatest player in WC history.

Even just sitting and watching games, without looking at the stats, a random person who isn’t clued up on football would be able to point to Messi as the best player on the pitch. Ronaldo would not be noticed as the best player on the pitch. Maybe the best goal scorer on the pitch but not the best player.

We have all player football as kids for school and the best player for the school team is not always the top scorer. At my school the top scorer for all 5 years was not the best player in the year.

Goals alone do not make the best player.

Did anyone say they did? This comment has been made more than a thousand times in this thread without anyone saying the opposite.

More than how many goals or assists they have, it's when they come that matters most. The fact that Ronaldo scores and assists a lot more than Messi in the CL knockouts matters a lot more than their goal or assists totals given it's the decisive part of the biggest club competition in the world by far. The Champions League and international football are by far the 2 biggest stages in football and like it or not it is where their legacies will be written as it's been the case with every great player before them.

The 50 or so matches Messi's played throughout the season will mean next to nothing compared with the few games he'll play at the World Cup. Your argument would make sense if every goal and every competition was worth the same but they aren't. The biggest competitions in football do not value consistency which is why rating a player on how consistently good they are at different parts of the game doesn't really make much sense.

The failure of some people here understanding this coupled with the failure of understanding that more than passing, dribbling and scoring matters on a football pitch leads to some terrible arguments. Do you think Thomas Muller has been a great player? He's a forward, doesn't really score that much, not a great dribbler or passer, not very creative, doesn't score solo goals. Why has he been one of the best in the world for years? Why is he even a starter for Bayern? There's a very clear lack of understanding here on the different ways to cause problems to a defense.

 

[Peyroteo]

Could you or someone put the list of big goals in big games in both of their careers?

Would be interesting to see unbiased stats, and to see if it even holds true that Ronaldo has scored more big goals in more big games. Big games are not just latter stages of the CL. Goals vs Barca, Real Madrid, Athletico, CDR finals, WC, Euro, Copa America etc. I don’t think there will be much difference between the two.

Only reason that will be tough is that there isn't a definition as to what constitutes a big match. Ronaldo's scored more in the CL at every level so I don't think there are any questions there, in international tournaments they've scored the same goals but then when you look at those goals there is a lot to take into account. Their importance, the level of opposition, the level of their own teams, Euros vs Copa America... then there are the goals in qualification or in the playoffs, etc.

For me there's not any question at all who's scored more goals in big games but I don't know how to put a convincing list of them together that everyone would agree with.

 

[DonFerguson]

Please provide some kind of proof if you're going to make such allegations.

As for your 3 imaginary Ronaldo shirts, so what? There are plenty of United fans who are still upset that he wanted to move to Real rather than appreciate the fact the greatest player ever played a significant part of his career at United.

"Allegations". If you weren't following the football world around then, go ahead and use Google.

"Imaginary football shirts". You must be living in a bubble if you think I care enough whether a laughing stock of an online fanboy believes me or not.

Now, pipe down and stick to the thread topic.

 

[DonFerguson]

We were supposed to be talking about if Messi ever played as badly as Ronaldo did against Bayern (and the answer is a resounding YES!!!), yet you suddenly go off about the WC?

As for the red part... You keep imagining these games where Messi did nothing as Barca crashed out to be some great performances it almost makes me ask: "What are you taking? "

This shouldn't be complicated even for you. Messi never had a single game in the last 10 years even close to as bad as the match Ronaldo had against Bayern last night. That's the worst performance by an all time great that I've seen at this level.

If you - for a second - think that Messi has ever been as bad as that, then I'd ask you the same question. "What are you talking?"

Back to the career stats again, why don't you read through these 240 odds pages, it must have been discussed at least 20 times.

I have. The consensus is that Messi is the much better player, even in a United forum suffused with fanboys like yourself who seem to struggle with really basic stuff.

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

Don't trust the Ballon D'or. Trust Don Ferguson's conspiracy theory the caf who says Ballon D'or is a marketing scam as opposed to his opinion of who is better

I will say that Messi is the more magical player given how he manages to vanish at the big stage time and time again

Hilarious how when Messi was up 4-1, Ballon d’Or was the greatest thing since sliced bread. But now that it’s 5-5 and Ronaldo looks like the front runner to win it again to take the outright lead, it doesn’t hold any significance and is a fraudulent award

The shit they’ll spin to protect their perfect golden boy who’s incapable of doing no wrong. Always exonerating him of an ounce of blame and his failures/no shows on the big stage. Whatever fits the narrative I guess. The track records don’t lie.

Unreal. All cower before the might of The Kommander.

In the CL there is no comparison tbh.

Messi also has the higher scoring supporting cast/players on Barca compared to Ronaldo on Madrid. Look at each clubs leading goal scorers...Messi has players who score more than Ronaldo’s teammates do on Madrid but go on and make such a ludicrous statement if it means you keep floating in your boat.

^Ronaldo has scored over 50% of his teams goals and is well ahead of anyone on a team that’s scored over 20 goals (larger sample size). Yet Messi homers have the audacity to spew out that it’s more likely Madrid win when Ronaldo doesn’t score compared to Messi not scoring because CR7’s team relies less on him compared to Messi. Yea, that’s cute. Deluded opinion, meet facts.

He’s 2 goals away from matching Barcelona’s total GF in the competition. Literal 1 man army.

There’s a reason they call it RonaldoFC.

 

[Peyroteo]

This shouldn't be complicated even for you. Messi never had a single game in the last 10 years even close to as bad as the match Ronaldo had against Bayern last night. That's the worst performance by an all time great that I've seen at this level.

What the actual feck

 

[DonFerguson]

For me Messi is the better player, better scorer is up for debate as Ronaldo has scored more important big game goals in the last few years, Messi before that. Messi has 30 ish goals less in 150 games less though.

For me Messi is a better goal scorer actually, because contrary to people like Cal using the “Ronaldo scores more big game goals” all goals are equal to winning a game, doesn’t really matter who it is against.

I did say Ron is debatably the best goal scorer ever, but I retract that comment.

Pele is the greatest goal scorer for me. Messi a better goal scorer than Ronaldo.

Muller might have been better than both. I agree with you, incidently. I don't even think that Messi is the greatest scorer ever. Like you and most fans, I think he's one of the best scorers ever - and he's better than Ronaldo - but Pele by consensus might be considered a better scorer.

For me, It's still Muller though.

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

What the actual feck

LOL. I’m telling you, Messi is perfect, a golden boy, and is incapable of making a mistake. Always has been, always will be. Bahahaha.

Acting like Ronaldo contributed negatively in the match. He just didn’t get service and he’s labelling it an alltime terrible performance. The lengths they’ll go, I’m actually dumbfounded.


@DonFerguson this is for you:



But wait, Ronaldo is selfish and not a team player or leader? Right.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Did anyone say they did? This comment has been made more than a thousand times in this thread without anyone saying the opposite.

More than how many goals or assists they have, it's when they come that matters most. The fact that Ronaldo scores and assists a lot more than Messi in the CL knockouts matters a lot more than their goal or assists totals given it's the decisive part of the biggest club competition in the world by far. The Champions League and international football are by far the 2 biggest stages in football and like it or not it is where their legacies will be written as it's been the case with every great player before them.

The 50 or so matches Messi's played throughout the season will mean next to nothing compared with the few games he'll play at the World Cup. Your argument would make sense if every goal and every competition was worth the same but they aren't. The biggest competitions in football do not value consistency which is why rating a player on how consistently good they are at different parts of the game doesn't really make much sense.

The failure of some people here understanding this coupled with the failure of understanding that more than passing, dribbling and scoring matters on a football pitch leads to some terrible arguments. Do you think Thomas Muller has been a great player? He's a forward, doesn't really score that much, not a great dribbler or passer, not very creative, doesn't score solo goals. Why has he been one of the best in the world for years? Why is he even a starter for Bayern? There's a very clear lack of understanding here on the different ways to cause problems to a defense.

Great post.

It is true that Ronaldo has been better in the latter stages of the CL the last few years, but this seasons Ronaldo was poor for 4 months of the and season then only started to turn up in the league when the pressure was off because they were so far behind Barcelona.

Being great in the CL latter stages doesn’t negate his form before Christmas. Messi having a bad game against Roma is not the same as Ronaldo having 15 or so bad games.

A player may show up to score more big goals, but that does not equate to being the better footballer. Better goal scorer in big games, but not the better footballer.

If Ronaldo does not score in games he is quite poor and doesn’t contribute much, except his dangerous movement.

If Messi doesn’t score he still ends up the man of the match.

For me Messi is number 3 of all time and Ronaldo number 5 maybe 4. It isn’t a slight for Ronaldo, as he is exceptional, but my opinion is Messi is better. Because aside from big game goals, Messi has much more as a footballer.

 

[Peyroteo]

LOL. I’m telling you, Messi is perfect, and golden boy, and is incapable of making a mistake. Always has been, always will be. Bahahaha.

Acting like Ronaldo contributed negatively in the match. He just didn’t get service and he’s labelling it an alltime terrible performance. The lengths they’ll go, I’m actually dumbfounded.


@DonFerguson this is for you:



But wait, Ronaldo is selfish and not a team player or leader? Right.

What does that second part of your comment even have to do with what he said?

You really need to calm down man. Don't answer stupid arguments with more stupid arguments because it's a neverending cycle and the last few pages have been beyond terrible. Just ignore the really stupid comments and debate what's worth debating with instead of doing that.

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

What does that second part of your comment even have to do with what he said?

You really need to calm down man. Don't answer stupid arguments with more stupid arguments because it's a neverending cycle and the last few pages have been beyond terrible. Just ignore the really stupid comments and debate what's worth debating with instead of doing that.

True

 

[Peyroteo]

Great post.

It is true that Ronaldo has been better in the latter stages of the CL the last few years, but this seasons Ronaldo was poor for 4 months of the and season then only started to turn up in the league when the pressure was off because they were so far behind Barcelona.

Being great in the CL latter stages doesn’t negate his form before Christmas. Messi having a bad game against Roma is not the same as Ronaldo having 15 or so bad games.

A player may show up to score more big goals, but that does not equate to being the better footballer. Better goal scorer in big games, but not the better footballer.

If Ronaldo does not score in games he is quite poor and doesn’t contribute much, except his dangerous movement.

If Messi doesn’t score he still ends up the man of the match.

For me Messi is number 3 of all time and Ronaldo number 5 maybe 4. It isn’t a slight for Ronaldo, as he is exceptional, but my opinion is Messi is better. Because aside from big game goals, Messi has much more as a footballer.

That's mostly fair enough, think we get out of track a lot but we don't actually disagree that much. Ronaldo was poor in the first few months, that's true but it was only in the league. By January he had something like 18 goals in 22 games so he was still scoring goals. The truth is it a very special season, Madrid are going for a 3rd CL in a row and there's a World Cup so as a 33 year old with one of his last chances to add something that big to his legacy it is understandable the way he managed his season. Now it puts more pressure on him to succeed but I think it was a risk worth taking even if it doesn't end up working out.

Messi also had bad games in that period, it's just that when the team is winning it doesn't matter as much.

It is not true at all that if Ronaldo doesn't score he doesn't contribute much, especially if you're talking about his whole career rather than just recently. Ronaldo might not be consistently as good at creating as Messi but he's been brilliant at it throughout his career nevertheless and his assist numbers are there for everyone to see and they don't appear out of nowhere.

At his prime he was as complete of a player as I've seen but I don't think he'll ever get the recognition for that simply because he didn't have the team or the luck to win more than he did at the time. In 2012 he lost the CL semifinal and the Euros semifinal on penalties, he'd have played Chelsea and Italy in the final, both winnable games. Then in 2016 he wins the CL final on penalties and the Euros quarter final on penalties and ends up winning both which made the narrative of it become a lot different than it would have been if it had happened in 2012.

 

[Cal?]

This shouldn't be complicated even for you. Messi never had a single game in the last 10 years even close to as bad as the match Ronaldo had against Bayern last night. That's the worst performance by an all time great that I've seen at this level.

If you - for a second - think that Messi has ever been as bad as that, then I'd ask you the same question. "What are you talking?"

I have. The consensus is that Messi is the much better player, even in a United forum suffused with fanboys like yourself who seem to struggle with really basic stuff.

If you seriously think that, there's no reasoning with you. Messi was much much worse than that for most CL QF games in the last 3 seasons.

Are you having a laugh? There is clearly no consensus, a slight majority rate Messi more highly, a similar proportion to the online poll that has almost 500,000 votes.

 

[Infordin]

Only scenario where Ronaldo's ineffective is in Barcelona fans' hypotheticals. Remember when the only reason Ronaldo was effective was because he had Ozil putting chances on a plate for him? It was never the other way around...

And in the last game he played

In a game like that, Messi would have dropped deep and tried to make things happen. Ronaldo just stays up front and remains ineffective.

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

And in the last game he played

In a game like that, Messi would have dropped deep and tried to make things happen. Ronaldo just stays up front and remains ineffective.

Roma: 3

Barcelona: 0

...in a game like that, Ronaldo would have pushed the Roma line deep, kept them on their heels, and made dangerous runs to try and score. Messi just stayed back and remained invisible.


PS - “in a game like that”, its just the 1st leg. Unlike the 3-0L Messi and Barca took in the crucial 2nd leg. It’s not how you start but how you finish. Apply it to the CL and the season as a whole when Ronaldo started off slow yet here he is ahead of Messi in goals too. It’s about finishing strong.

 

[TheoY]

This shouldn't be complicated even for you. Messi never had a single game in the last 10 years even close to as bad as the match Ronaldo had against Bayern last night. That's the worst performance by an all time great that I've seen at this level.

If you - for a second - think that Messi has ever been as bad as that, then I'd ask you the same question. "What are you talking?"

I have. The consensus is that Messi is the much better player, even in a United forum suffused with fanboys like yourself who seem to struggle with really basic stuff.

In such a 'bad' game as Ronaldo's against Bayern, he did practically score a goal...

 

[Peyroteo]

And in the last game he played

In a game like that, Messi would have dropped deep and tried to make things happen. Ronaldo just stays up front and remains ineffective.

It's not as simple as that though. If Ronaldo drops deep Madrid lose their verticality, he was playing a role that clearly doesn't suit him and if Messi was playing the same role I don't think he'd be any more effective than Ronaldo was.

Ronaldo misplaced some passes and he didn't do enough when the ball got to him but in general he was doing the right things by trying to get behind Bayern's defense, it just never quite worked out. More often than not they get right a few of those passes they mishit and they manage to actually be a consistent threat on the counter. It was an uncharacteristic game and it had more to do with his role on the pitch than with Madrid losing the midfield battle.

 

[shamans]

Hilarious how when Messi was up 4-1, Ballon d’Or was the greatest thing since sliced bread. But now that it’s 5-5 and Ronaldo looks like the front runner to win it again to take the outright lead, it doesn’t hold any significance and is a fraudulent award

The shit they’ll spin to protect their perfect golden boy who’s incapable of doing no wrong. Always exonerating him of an ounce of blame and his failures/no shows on the big stage. Whatever fits the narrative I guess. The track records don’t lie.

This. If only they knew discrediting Ronaldo so much for his achievements only causes the opposite of what they want.

 

[Billy Blaggs]

Ronaldo fans constantly having to use stats sums this argument up.

In the days of Bestie, Maradona, Pele etc you didn't need stats, you just watched the player and judged them down the pub. Ronaldo fans would get chinned down the pub if they brought out all this stat bollox.

It's not the days of Best, Maradona and Pele though and stats are valid to the argument IMO.

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

This. If only they knew discrediting Ronaldo so much for his achievements only causes the opposite of what they want.

They do it for everything. It’s the same reason why they were able to dish it out over the years but can’t take it themselves now these past number of years with Cristiano being on top.

Quite frankly, it’s a 2way road which goes both ways but they aren’t able to grasp that. Thus why they aren’t able to acknowledge Ronaldo’s greatness and try discrediting it while making themselves look like laughing stocks. When Messi was on top Ronaldo fans didn’t discredit him, they knew he was on top and accepted it. When the flip side is happening now, Messi fanboys are in complete denial and have some sort of agenda to downplay whatever he does.

Same thing with the CL. When Messi/Barca won in years past he was the best. But when Ronaldo dominates it and has turned it into his playing ground becoming the CL King, it’s a few games competition which anyone can win with a bit of hot streak and some luck + all of a sudden becomes less of an achievement than winning the league because the league is over a longer period of time. Ok there

 

[MS4]

It looks like we finally agreed on Messi being the best player and Ronaldo the best goal-scorer?

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

It looks like we finally agreed on Messi being the best player and Ronaldo the best goal-scorer?

Sort of but not really. At least imo / not speaking on anyone else’s behalf.

There’s a difference between the 2.

I agree Messi is the most talented player ever. That doesn’t meant he’s the BEST player as Ronaldo is that imo with him coming through when it matters most.

Some would prefer the most talented player which is perfectly fine. I prefer the one you know you can rely on, the best big game player ever.

Ability/talent/skill ≠ best footballer.

Yes Messi is the most skilled player ever. Doesn’t mean he was the best player. That’s like saying a street player with immense skill is better than Ronaldo because he has more ability. There’s a lot more to it than just that.

Honestly speaking, to me Ronaldo is unequivocally the best goal scoring machine in history. Messi has an argument for most talented/gifted in history but it’s not black and white. Ronaldo is also the best big game performer in the world today without question. The “best player”, that’ll always be up for interpretation and debate

 

[BarcaSpurs]

Sort of but not really. At least imo / not speaking on anyone else’s behalf.



Honestly speaking, to me Ronaldo is unequivocally the best goal scoring machine in history. Messi has an argument for most talented/gifted in history but it’s not black and white. Ronaldo is also the best big game performer in the world today without question. The “best player”, that’ll always be up for interpretation and debate

Don't you think there's a touch of recency bias in the argument that ronaldo is a better big game player than messi? If you rewound to 2015 and tried to argue then that ronaldo was the better big game player youd be laughed out. From 09 to 15 messi dominated many big games, was the better clasico player and had bigger champions league contributions.

Of course in the last 2 and a half seasons ronaldo has hugely stepped up in the big moments whilst for one reason or the other barca have usually whimpered out of the champions league in ties where messi has been pretty invisible but has it been enough to say that overall in their careers ronaldo has been comfortably the better big game player?

 

[berbatrick]

Don't you think there's a touch of recency bias in the argument that ronaldo is a better big game player than messi? If you rewound to 2015 and tried to argue then that ronaldo was the better big game player youd be laughed out. From 09 to 15 messi dominated many big games, was the better clasico player and had bigger champions league contributions.

Of course in the last 2 and a half seasons ronaldo has hugely stepped up in the big moments whilst for one reason or the other barca have usually whimpered out of the champions league in ties where messi has been pretty invisible but has it been enough to say that overall in their careers ronaldo has been comfortably the better big game player?

I personally feel that one of Messi's best ever games was the Clasico at the end of last season where they needed to win to stay in the title race. Tormented the Madrid defence and midfield all game, got Ramos sent off, 2 goals in a 3-2 win including 90th min winner, and MotM by a mile. I generally think he's been better in Clasicos (the one match where these two meet face-to-face) over the last few years, even as Barca have crumbled in the CL.

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

Don't you think there's a touch of recency bias in the argument that ronaldo is a better big game player than messi? If you rewound to 2015 and tried to argue then that ronaldo was the better big game player youd be laughed out. From 09 to 15 messi dominated many big games, was the better clasico player and had bigger champions league contributions.

Of course in the last 2 and a half seasons ronaldo has hugely stepped up in the big moments whilst for one reason or the other barca have usually whimpered out of the champions league in ties where messi has been pretty invisible but has it been enough to say that overall in their careers ronaldo has been comfortably the better big game player?

@ the latter, I think so. Historic CL runs, a Euro title, and Ballon d’Ors (quite possibly may take the lead) vs CL no shows and not getting it done internationally...those are defining moments.

Like someone mentioned back in the thread, when you think of legendary players you think of legacy defining moments which there are a few of. Maradona’s goal vs England etc. As of late, Ronaldo has that edge and will be remembered for them. Messi has slacked. Same reason people think of the slip when speaking of Gerrard. Not saying Messi doesn’t have defining moments, but Ronaldo has more of them / the brighter ones which outshine Messi’s.

 

[TheoY]

It looks like we finally agreed on Messi being the best player and Ronaldo the best goal-scorer?

All we have established up to now it seems to me is that Ronaldo is the best goal-scorer and Messi the best ball-handler.

 

[MrEleson]

I was pointing out that Messi doesn’t only score all his goals against the likes of Getafe like Cal was making out.

Please read the context and the response i am replying to before commenting. I wasn’t just showing Messi scoring more goals than Ronaldo, because yes Messi has been in La Liga for longer.

But you need to realise that Messi has more goals against Athletico than Ronaldo, and Sevilla, and Real than what Ron does against the former two and Barca. With some of them being when Messi was 21 and under.

Ronaldo arrived in La Liga at his prime, Messi was playing in La Liga way before his own prime.

So biased it’s fecking ridiculous.

You throw numbers showing that Messi has scored more against La Liga clubs than Ronaldo and then when someone counters it with the fact that Messi has in fact been in La Liga longer you then revert to the old cliche: “but but Ronaldo arrived in madrid at his peak while Messi was playing when he was under 21”

So why didn’t you take that into consideration when comparing Messi’s goals against top English clubs to Ronaldo?? Messi played those English teams largely at his peak while Ronaldo played them mostly as an 18-23 year old as a traditional winger in a 4-4-2. He wasn’t even a forward for the large majority of the games he played the top 4 in England and since reaching his peak, he hasn’t faced English teams nearly as often as Messi (and when he has, his record has been good against them).

 

[Zlaatan]

Did anyone say they did? This comment has been made more than a thousand times in this thread without anyone saying the opposite.

More than how many goals or assists they have, it's when they come that matters most. The fact that Ronaldo scores and assists a lot more than Messi in the CL knockouts matters a lot more than their goal or assists totals given it's the decisive part of the biggest club competition in the world by far. The Champions League and international football are by far the 2 biggest stages in football and like it or not it is where their legacies will be written as it's been the case with every great player before them.

The 50 or so matches Messi's played throughout the season will mean next to nothing compared with the few games he'll play at the World Cup. Your argument would make sense if every goal and every competition was worth the same but they aren't. The biggest competitions in football do not value consistency which is why rating a player on how consistently good they are at different parts of the game doesn't really make much sense.

The failure of some people here understanding this coupled with the failure of understanding that more than passing, dribbling and scoring matters on a football pitch leads to some terrible arguments. Do you think Thomas Muller has been a great player? He's a forward, doesn't really score that much, not a great dribbler or passer, not very creative, doesn't score solo goals. Why has he been one of the best in the world for years? Why is he even a starter for Bayern? There's a very clear lack of understanding here on the different ways to cause problems to a defense.

I've said this before but I'll say it again.
It seems as if you're talking about something completely different than what I have understood this thread to be about. You're talking about legacy and defining moments, i.e big game performances. I'm talking about who is the better player full stop which from what I've seen most others seem to be doing as well. That's two completely different things. All the games both players will have played throughout their season/career will give you by far and away the best foundation to asses how good they are, whereas the games at the WC is much more up to chance for various reasons. They could play with an injury in the WC that makes them play at 90% of their capacity for example, or their team could lose the 1/16 final due to a red card etcetc. Should that be held against them in a discussion about who's the best individual player?

Saying that it doesn't make much sense to look at it in any other way and the the reason for some of the terrible arguments in here is because people judge players based on all of their games instead of a select few like you do is just absurd imo. If you started a thread called "best big game player" then your line of reasoning would be valid, but in a thread comparing them as football players overall it just doesn't work as well. I'm not saying that you can't have your line of reasoning, but it's a bit rich to spout that someone who looks at it differently "fails to understand". It like telling someone who is about to buy a house that they should only look at the kitchen, not the whole house, because you think the kitchen is the most important room. And that they would fail to understand how good the house really is if they wanted to look at more than just the kitchen.

According to your way of looking at this a coach could never determine who is the best player on a team if he only saw the training sessions for example, which again I would 100% disagree with. Even Henry gave an example about how Messi was like in training when he tried to explain why he was the best he's ever seen. Many have done the same with Scholes, even Ronaldo himself.