Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[The holy trinity 68]

Real probably would keep going out in the CL QF with Messi instead of Ronaldo.

What's your point?

Would never have won the CL against Atletico in 2014 if it wasn't for Ramos. Would never have won the 2016 final if it wasn't for Ramos.

Ramos has scored more important goals in the CL final for Real than Ronaldo.

As you like to make people aware that the CL is the most important trophy, does that make Ramos the best Real Madrid player? Does that make him the best defender ever? CL alone does not make one player better.

 

[Cal?]

If Real Madrid were offered a straight swap deal, Messi for Ronaldo, do you think they'd want to take it?

If Barcelona were offered a straight swap deal, Ronaldo for Messi, do you think they'd want to take it?

The answer is obvious. Real Madrid couldn't get the contracts signed fast enough, while Barcelona would obviously completely reject the idea, and their fans would be apoplectic if it ever happened.

Real fans wouldn't believe their luck if they managed to get Messi. Do you know why? Not merely because he is significantly better than Ronaldo, although this is true, but because they've suffered at his hands time and time again, and have watched him dominate Spanish football during the period that both he and Ronaldo have been in La Liga as rivals.

If you believe otherwise then you're just not capable of being objective.

That's quite probable, but only due to the age difference.

If Ronaldo was 2.5 years younger rather than older, the opposite would be true.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Ronaldo has made the debate very interesting with his performances in the last 3 years, which would be his best.

If you think his performances and overall level are as good as Messi’s best three, then fair play to you.

 

[Cal?]

Would never have won the CL against Atletico in 2014 if it wasn't for Ramos. Would never have won the 2016 final if it wasn't for Ramos.

Ramos has scored more important goals in the CL final for Real than Ronaldo.

As you like to make people aware that the CL is the most important trophy, does that make Ramos the best Real Madrid player? Does that make him the best defender ever? CL alone does not make one player better.

Messi wouldn't have been to the WC final if it wasn't for Higuain's winner against Belgium, he wouldn't have won the CL in 2015 if it wasn't for Neymar and Suarez doing all the scoring.

The point is that Messi and Ronaldo are both the key player for their respective sides.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Messi wouldn't have been to the WC final if it wasn't for Higuain's winner against Belgium, he wouldn't have won the CL in 2015 if it wasn't for Neymar and Suarez doing all the scoring.

The point is that Messi and Ronaldo are both the key player for their respective sides.

They are but you always make out as if Ronaldo only scores key goals and that Messi is some kind of flat track bully.

 

[Cal?]

They are but you always make out as if Ronaldo only scores key goals and that Messi is some kind of flat track bully.

For 2 players with a similar scoring record over the last decade, there’s no denying Ronaldo has more key goals in bigger games to his name than Messi.

The much better CL knockout record, the slightly better international record.

 

[Paxi]

This thread

 

[The holy trinity 68]

For 2 players with a similar scoring record over the last decade, there’s no denying Ronaldo has more key goals in bigger games to his name than Messi.

The much better CL knockout record, the slightly better international record.

Depends on what you mean by key goals in bigger games, because I have seen you state that some Classico games are not big games and correct me if I am wrong but I am sure you have said that all Messi's goals vs Arsenal are not classed as big games.

And name the big games Ronaldo has scored in on the International stage. None of his goals at the Euro's were big game goals.

 

[Peyroteo]

Depends on what you mean by key goals in bigger games, because I have seen you state that some Classico games are not big games and correct me if I am wrong but I am sure you have said that all Messi's goals vs Arsenal are not classed as big games.

And name the big games Ronaldo has scored in on the International stage. None of his goals at the Euro's were big game goals.

I think you got a little confused there

 

[Zlaatan]

I've repeatedly said time and time again the same things and you repeatedly take it out of context. You look at the CL games to take conclusions of out of the CL games. Obviously you don't judge their whole careers on it. No fecking shit.

When I say Ronaldo's better because he's outperformed Messi in the CL and internationally, I'm not discarding the league performances. There's just not a big enough difference there that's big enough to make up for that gap given the huge difference in importance between the competitions.

I know you're not discarding them, I'm just pointing out that for example 500 league games are just as important to me as 50 odd CL and international games when I judge how good a player is. The sheer number of games they play in the league compared to the others competitions make up for a lot of the difference about some games being more important. I also don't agree that their league performances are neck and neck unless you only look at their goal scoring stats, or that Ronaldo has outperformed Messi in the CL or internationally outside of scoring more goals in the latter part of the CL. So again, people look at this differently and you can say that it doesn't make sense all you want, but that still won't change the fact that there are more ways than one of looking at this.

Then read my posts, obviously you aren't going to analyze 1000 games individually and put them all into context, but in particular games it's absolutely what should be done.

You're going to put everything you've seen into context, and you should absolutely analyse every game which I think we all do if we actually watched it. If we only do that in particular games then we're back at the "that game isn't a good example because red cards, injuries, teams etcetc".

No... you need to come to peace with the fact I have never said that.



No, the 'watch them play' argument is stupid and makes no sense at all since it does not take into account the importance of said matches into consideration... you watch them play, yes. Then you put that performance in context of all the other circumstances around the player. The team they're playing for, the opponent, how big the game is, how big the competition is, etc.

Saying that 'watch them play" is stupid and doesn't make sense when we are trying to judge how good two players are is among the most bizarre things I've ever read. Watching them play will obviously tell you who they are playing with and against, how big the game is and what competition it is. I mean why the hell wouldn't it?? How many games have you seen Ronaldo play without knowing who he played with, who the team on the other side was and what competition it was??

No, it is not even an exaggeration. It is not my argument at all. It's bullshit and it's tiring to repeat myself over and over again while continuously having people pretending I said things I didn't say.

An exaggeration is exactly what it is. I replaced your "CL knock out stage and the WC are the most important" with "CL and WC finals are the most important", that's it. It still doesn't matter though since it was more than obvious that I was being fecking sarcastic, and if you're this upset because I didn't copy your argument word for word then I don't know what to say.

 

[Zlaatan]

This thread

I'm not proud of having become a frequent poster in here but like @Zehner said, I just can't ignore some of the arguments either. Plus a lot of people here make me laugh, so I guess it's all good in the end.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

I think you got a little confused there

1 knockout goal and all the rest group stage goals. People like to say that group games in the CL are not big goals so why any different for the Euro’s.

 

[Cal?]

Depends on what you mean by key goals in bigger games, because I have seen you state that some Classico games are not big games and correct me if I am wrong but I am sure you have said that all Messi's goals vs Arsenal are not classed as big games.

And name the big games Ronaldo has scored in on the International stage. None of his goals at the Euro's were big game goals.

I said Arsenal and Milan are not really the same class as Bayern, Juve and the likes.

Not every Clasico is a huge game.

 

[Peyroteo]

1 knockout goal and all the rest group stage goals. People like to say that group games in the CL are not big goals so why any different for the Euro’s.

Wait, what? Now you've completely changed what you were saying. You just said none of the goals he's scored in the Euros were in big games... but now you're talking about the group stages? What happened there? What about the goal in the semifinal?

As for your question, Euros/World Cup groupstages are 3 games. CL groupstages are 6 games. Madrid and Barcelona could go through groupstages without Ronaldo and Messi even playing while for Argentina and Portugal it's a lot different, especially for Portugal.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

I said Arsenal and Milan are not really the same class as Bayern, Juve and the likes.

Not every Clasico is a huge game.

@carvajal

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Wait, what? Now you've completely changed what you were saying. You just said none of the goals he's scored in the Euros were in big games... but now you're talking about the group stages? What happened there? What about the goal in the semifinal?

As for your question, Euros/World Cup groupstages are 3 games. CL groupstages are 6 games. Madrid and Barcelona could go through groupstages without Ronaldo and Messi even playing while for Argentina and Portugal it's a lot different, especially for Portugal.

Just as Cal and all the other pro Ronaldo debaters say stuff like Messi goals vs Milan or Arsenal or his hatrick today to wrap up La Liga some Classico’s are not big. The big games are apparently only against the best teams in the latter stages of the CL or WC.

Ronaldo scored vs Wales. Not exactly a big team is it.

 

[carvajal]

@carvajal

Well, I have not followed the thread these last days, but of course, it's always a great game. For us it is like Liverpool Manchester for you, so logically it is always expected that the elite players will perform.
In any case I hope that nobody comes out with "Messi Goat" if he scores next week after winning la liga and Madrid thinking(if we win) about Kiev

 

[Peyroteo]

Just as Cal and all the other pro Ronaldo debaters say stuff like Messi goals vs Milan or Arsenal or his hatrick today to wrap up La Liga some Classico’s are not big. The big games are apparently only against the best teams in the latter stages of the CL or WC.

Ronaldo scored vs Wales. Not exactly a big team is it.

Wait so do you actually believe in what you're saying or are you just saying it to prove that what Cal had said didn't make sense?

Ronaldo's goal vs Wales is arguably the biggest goal he's scored in his career.

 

[Cal?]

Just as Cal and all the other pro Ronaldo debaters say stuff like Messi goals vs Milan or Arsenal or his hatrick today to wrap up La Liga some Classico’s are not big. The big games are apparently only against the best teams in the latter stages of the CL or WC.

Ronaldo scored vs Wales. Not exactly a big team is it.

When have I ever tried to play down any game in the latter stages of any big tournament?

 

[Cal?]

Well, I have not followed the thread these last days, but of course, it's always a great game. For us it is like Liverpool Manchester for you, so logically it is always expected that the elite players will perform.
In any case I hope that nobody comes out with "Messi Goat" if he scores next week after winning la liga and Madrid thinking(if we win) about Kiev

Is it not true that the CL knockout games are generally bigger games unless there's a La Liga title on the line?

Given the choice, win against Barca to end their unbeaten league season or beat Bayern?

 

[Cheesy]

I presume Cal thought Messi was better from 08-12, and has changed his opinion on this issue since then. Or was it who scored the most goals that determined which one was better back then? Can't quite recall.

 

[Cal?]

I presume Cal thought Messi was better from 08-12, and has changed his opinion on this issue since then. Or was it who scored the most goals that determined which one was better back then? Can't quite recall.

I have been in the Ronaldo camp since day 1.

 

[Raru9]

So Messi and his team has just won another La Liga title. 7 of the last 10. 9th La Liga title for Messi. His 6th since CR join Madrid (he has only 2).

This year in Spain he has been the MVP. Actually, he is the top goalscorer and the player with most assits in La Liga. And I no talking about key-passes or anothers aspects of the game that he surely is heading.

 

[Cheesy]

I have been in the Ronaldo camp since day 1.

In spite of the fact your agreements here now largely centre around who's winning more stuff. Which what was Messi was doing back then, by a comfortable margin.

 

[carvajal]

Is it not true that the CL knockout games are generally bigger games unless there's a La Liga title on the line?

Given the choice, win against Barca to end their unbeaten league season or beat Bayern?

The cups of Europe always come first (and with more reason if we can equal the Ajax / Bayern of the 70´s)

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Is it not true that the CL knockout games are generally bigger games unless there's a La Liga title on the line?

Given the choice, win against Barca to end their unbeaten league season or beat Bayern?

Given the choice, me to run away with your significant other or @Zehner

 

[Cal?]

In spite of the fact your agreements here now largely centre around who's winning more stuff. Which what was Messi was doing back then, by a comfortable margin.

I always thought that Xaviesta did more to make Messi look good than anyone ever did for Ronaldo.

 

[Cal?]

Given the choice, me to run away with your significant other or @Zehner

If I had to choose....

You, you seem slightly more reasonable.

 

[Raru9]

I always thought that Xaviesta did more to make Messi look good than anyone ever did for Ronaldo.

Madrid have Kroos and Modric since a couple of years. They not are Fellaini and Frimpong precisely.

 

[Cheesy]

I always thought that Xaviesta did more to make Messi look good than anyone ever did for Ronaldo.

That's a cop-out considering how good Messi clearly is/was as an individual player though. There are an absolute ton of goals which were of his own making, whether through his extraordinary dribbling ability or clinical finishing.

Although I'd argue if Xavi/Iniesta inflated Messi's ability to the point where he looks like the best player of all-time in spite of the fact he apparently isn't, they should be factored into this discussion as well.

 

[Cal?]

That's a cop-out considering how good Messi clearly is/was as an individual player though. There are an absolute ton of goals which were of his own making, whether through his extraordinary dribbling ability or clinical finishing.

Although I'd argue if Xavi/Iniesta inflated Messi's ability to the point where he looks like the best player of all-time in spite of the fact he apparently isn't, they should be factored into this discussion as well.

It's not coincidence that Messi have won nothing with his country and have generally struggled in the CL since the demise of Xaviesta (except that one season where Neymar and Suarez were both on fire).

I've said many times I think Messi is the 2nd best player ever, just that Ronaldo is better.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

If I had to choose....

You, you seem slightly more reasonable.

Have you always enjoyed watching ronaldo more? I think it’s perfectly fine to think of him as the best ever and the stats don’t lie, but just curious as to whether your preference goes beyond the stats and you also just find his style of play easier on the eye.

Based on the way I enjoy football, I don’t think Ronaldo’s had a better season of enjoyable football than his 07-08 one for us. It’s that season I compare him to when I think of Messi’s best season, not the ones where he starts doing the business when it matters. Every single time he stepped out onto the pitch in 2007-2008 he was 95% of the time very visibly the best player on the field and by a hell of a distance. I just don’t get that feeling now and haven’t for some time. He’s always had a pretty good supporting cast, but that season he was outshining some legendary united players whereas now, I don’t think there’s as big a gap in terms of distinguishing overall effectiveness versus Modric, kroos and even Ramos to some extent.

On the other hand, at least to my eye, Messi is very visibly the best player on the park 95% of the time and it’s been that way since he was 20, and it was still true today.

 

[Cheesy]

It's not coincidence that Messi have won nothing with his country and have generally struggled in the CL since the demise of Xaviesta (except that one season where Neymar and Suarez were both on fire).

I've said many times I think Messi is the 2nd best player ever, just that Ronaldo is better.

The team around Messi internationally is meddling at best though, filled with great attackers and strong midfielders, but generally weak in defence. There isn't anything that can be done about that. Ronaldo's struggled internationally comparatively to club level; like Messi he's obviously still been consistently excellent for Portugal, but nowhere near as strong as he is at club level, with a number of tournaments where he's not been particularly remarkable or anywhere near as good as you'd expect him to be.

Even without Xaviesta Messi's still performed fairly well - Barca's CL failings can't be put down to him since he's their best player, and equally I could argue Ronaldo's increasing CL successes in recent years can be put down to the much better supporting cast he's had around him compared to his early years at Real. Which would be silly - since he's still been their best player over that period - but which would be technically true if we're using such a line of argument.

 

[Cal?]

Have you always enjoyed watching ronaldo more? I think it’s perfectly fine to think of him as the best ever and the stats don’t lie, but just curious as to whether your preference goes beyond the stats and you also just find his style of play easier on the eye.

Based on the way I enjoy football, I don’t think Ronaldo’s had a better season of enjoyable football than his 07-08 one for us. It’s that season I compare him to when I think of Messi’s best season, not the ones where he starts doing the business when it matters. Every single time he stepped out onto the pitch in 2007-2008 he was 95% of the time very visibly the best player on the field and by a hell of a distance. I just don’t get that feeling now and haven’t for some time. He’s always had a pretty good supporting cast, but that season he was outshining some legendary united players whereas now, I don’t think there’s as big a gap in terms of distinguishing overall effectiveness versus Modric, kroos and even Ramos to some extent.

On the other hand, at least to my eye, Messi is very visibly the best player on the park 95% of the time and it’s been that way since he was 20, and it was still true today.

Ultimately I think that's the difference, I value results more than performance and winning football more than aesthetically pleasing football.

 

[Cal?]

The team around Messi internationally is meddling at best though, filled with great attackers and strong midfielders, but generally weak in defence. There isn't anything that can be done about that. Ronaldo's struggled internationally comparatively to club level; like Messi he's obviously still been consistently excellent for Portugal, but nowhere near as strong as he is at club level, with a number of tournaments where he's not been particularly remarkable or anywhere near as good as you'd expect him to be.

Even without Xaviesta Messi's still performed fairly well - Barca's CL failings can't be put down to him since he's their best player, and equally I could argue Ronaldo's increasing CL successes in recent years can be put down to the much better supporting cast he's had around him compared to his early years at Real. Which would be silly - since he's still been their best player over that period - but which would be technically true if we're using such a line of argument.

It's ridiculous to say Argentina are weak in defence when they basically defended their way to the WC final 4 years ago. Messi has much better team mates in his national team than Ronaldo. I just don't agree with the view that Messi has done no wrong and it's all those many managers who fail to find the right system.

I think Ronaldo is achieving more now he has better team mates, even though the better team mates are still not on par with what Messi had 2009-2011.

Anyway, I don't have any issue with people preferring Messi. I've said many times I can accept many people think that. It's those ones who pretend there's no debate, or Messi is "miles better", Ronaldo is worse than Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, etc who get on my nerve.

 

[Culero]

It's not coincidence that Messi have won nothing with his country and have generally struggled in the CL since the demise of Xaviesta (except that one season where Neymar and Suarez were both on fire).

I've said many times I think Messi is the 2nd best player ever, just that Ronaldo is better.

Stop it Cal. Messi winning the WC or a Copa/WC double would not change your mind. He has been to three Copa and a WC final, granted no luck on his side but are you telling me if Higuain's goal in the WC stands and they win it you elevate him to be a better player than Ronaldo?

 

[Cal?]

Madrid have Kroos and Modric since a couple of years. They not are Fellaini and Frimpong precisely.

Not at the same level as peak Xaviesta.

 

[MS4]

So Messi and his team has just won another La Liga title. 7 of the last 10. 9th La Liga title for Messi. His 6th since CR join Madrid (he has only 2).

This year in Spain he has been the MVP. Actually, he is the top goalscorer and the player with most assits in La Liga. And I no talking about key-passes or anothers aspects of the game that he surely is heading.

But...but. He does not show up in big games. He is out of CL.

When Messi wins in numbers, there is no argument for Ronaldo left
Messi is the best if you like it or not. If Messi and Ronaldo swapped characters, Messi would have way more fanboys .. beside the true football fans

 

[Raru9]

Not at the same level as peak Xaviesta.

But still are very very good players. Actually, Madrid's win in Champions is not only Ronaldo goals. Modric's pace and Kross's control are sublime.

 

[Cal?]

Stop it Cal. Messi winning the WC or a Copa/WC double would not change your mind. He has been to three Copa and a WC final, granted no luck on his side but are you telling me if Higuain's goal in the WC stands and they win it you elevate him to be a better player than Ronaldo?

Messi at the World Cup - No Ronaldo comparisons!

Like I said before, if Argentina wins it on Sunday, I'll never argue against him being the best footballer ever ever in the universe again.

Even if he's sent off in the first minute and Argentina win it on penalties, it'd have been Messi leading them to the World CUp.