Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

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Peyroteo said:
No, the app is right. You just took the area of where he's playing which was what was talked about to where he gets the ball from open play only... That's the case for most players that they get the ball with more players ahead of them, obviously. It doesn't mean they play deeper than their teammates and Messi doesn't. As it's proven already.

I have barely missed one Barcelona game, so thanks. I do watch the games. Relying on stats to make a point is a lot better than pretending something is true or creating some irrelevant measure with a miniscule sample size to prove yourself right. I wasn't even the one to bring up the heat maps either.
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It's not irrelevant, it's a direct rebuttal with actual video evidence that anyone can see for their own eyes, not some two-bob app which is clearly wrong. Do you really think in that Getafe game that Suarez played just as deep as Messi as that app claims? Suarez usually plays on the shoulder of the last defender for Barca. No one is saying Messi plays as a defensive midfielder, everyone knows he does what he wants when he doesn't have the ball, but he is a playmaker and when he receives the ball he often is in midfield and has players ahead of him. Let's remind ourselves of the comment you found oh so risible;

'Messi usually has from 2 to 4 or even 5 teammates ahead of him'

I've proven that to be true from the Atletico Madrid game, you claimed it was literally the ONE game he played further back, yet he actually played deeper in the Getafe game that was on your little list. So what is it? Did he not play further back in that Atletico game then either now?
 
MalcolmTucker said:
'Messi usually has from 2 to 4 or even 5 teammates ahead of him'

I've proven that to be true from the Atletico Madrid game
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No, you've proven he usually has 2 to 4 or 5 teammates ahead of him when he gets the ball like pretty much every forward.. not that he plays behind 4 or 5 other players as a midfielder
 
Peyroteo said:
No, you've proven he usually has 2 to 4 or 5 teammates ahead of him when he gets the ball like pretty much every forward.. not that he plays behind 4 or 5 other players as a midfielder
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And no one said that - I even added a caveat that no one claims he is a defensive midfielder in both my posts that you've decided to omit from quoting. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this was a misunderstanding and you thought that Ishdalar was genuinely claiming that Messi was some holding midfielder. Goodnight, it's been fun!
 
Peyroteo said:
No, you've proven he usually has 2 to 4 or 5 teammates ahead of him when he gets the ball like pretty much every forward.. not that he plays behind 4 or 5 other players as a midfielder
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Like pretty much every forward? Now this is getting over the top. Have you even watched the videos? There is literally no forward in the game that drops as deep. Messi is often playing besides the center midfielders in these two videos.

Maybe strikers that play a little bit like false nines, e.g. Aguero, Salah, Griezmann or Mertens, occasionally drop as deep. I wasn't really paying attention to this when I watched them play (although I think I would have recognized it) but I can promise you that neither Lewandowski, nor Higuain, Cavani, Cristiano, Aubameyang, Lukaku, Werner, Costa, Immobile, Falcao, Icardi, Ibra, Benzema, Morata, Kane or any other top goal scorer does this. Not even wingers.

Almost even more important: Even when these players drop they usually get the ball with their back to the opponent's goal. Messi on the contrary drops deep enough to receive the ball facing it. This is typical for center midfielders and rarely the case with forwards or wingers. I would like to see how anyone of the forwards mentioned drops into the midfield to overtake the build up. That's what we mean when we say Messi plays deeper than anyone else in his position and still keeps up with the best goal scorers in the game.
 
Zehner said:
Like pretty much every forward? Now this is getting over the top. Have you even watched the videos? There is literally no forward in the game that drops as deep. Messi is often playing besides the center midfielders in these two videos.

Maybe strikers that play a little bit like false nines, e.g. Aguero, Salah, Griezmann or Mertens, occasionally drop as deep. I wasn't really paying attention to this when I watched them play (although I think I would have recognized it) but I can promise you that neither Lewandowski, nor Higuain, Cavani, Cristiano, Aubameyang, Lukaku, Werner, Costa, Immobile, Falcao, Icardi, Ibra, Benzema, Morata, Kane or any other top goal scorer does this. Not even wingers.

Almost even more important: Even when these players drop they usually get the ball with their back to the opponent's goal. Messi on the contrary drops deep enough to receive the ball facing it. This is typical for center midfielders and rarely the case with forwards or wingers. I would like to see how anyone of the forwards mentioned drops into the midfield to overtake the build up. That's what we mean when we say Messi plays deeper than anyone else in his position and still keeps up with the best goal scorers in the game.
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Then you should phrase that correctly. There are hundreds of forwards that drop as deep, players don't just play when the ball is at their feet. Salah and Aguero are scoring more than Messi this season so I'm not sure what you mean by this either.

'Maybe strikers that play a little bit like false nines, e.g. Aguero, Salah, Griezmann or Mertens, occasionally drop as deep. (...) but I can promise you that neither Lewandowski, nor Higuain, Cavani, Cristiano, Aubameyang, Lukaku, Werner, Costa, Immobile, Falcao, Icardi, Ibra, Benzema, Morata, Kane or any other top goal scorer does this. Not even wingers.'

Benzema plays about in the same positions Messi does too and Ronaldo plays nothing like the other players you named him next to... I'm not even sure how it got to me arguing this, it has nothing do with the original point at all
 
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Peyroteo said:
Then you should phrase that correctly. There are hundreds of forwards that drop as deep, players don't just play when the ball is at their feet. Salah and Aguero are scoring more than Messi this season so I'm not sure what you mean by this either.

'Maybe strikers that play a little bit like false nines, e.g. Aguero, Salah, Griezmann or Mertens, occasionally drop as deep. (...) but I can promise you that neither Lewandowski, nor Higuain, Cavani, Cristiano, Aubameyang, Lukaku, Werner, Costa, Immobile, Falcao, Icardi, Ibra, Benzema, Morata, Kane or any other top goal scorer does this. Not even wingers.'

Benzema plays about in the same positions Messi does too and Ronaldo plays nothing like the other players you named him next to... I'm not even sure how it got to me arguing this, it has nothing do with the original point at all
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Aguero is scoring once every 96 minutes this season, Salah once every 90 minutes and Messi once every 105 minutes. This difference is not that great and can be explained with statistical variation. They are in the same bracket. And no, there are not hundreds of forwards who play as deep. I can't think of another forward that regularly positions himself at the same height as the CM and deeper than the wingers and the other striker. If they did, they would be playing a false nine and in all honesty, I haven't seen this concept used effectively outside of Barcelona. And no, Benzema doesn't play the same role as Messi. That's a ridiculous thing to say. He is a supporting striker who creates space for Cristiano, feeds him with passes and doesn't need to score that mich, this is true, but he doesn't drop into the midfield and initiate attacks. That's the task of Modric and Kroos.

And where didn't I phrase it correctly? You simply refuse to admint that you were wrong. You made it seem like Ishdalar's statement that Messi usually has 2-5 players ahead of him was completely ridiculous. Then someone showed you evidence and you argued that the Atletico game was just an exception. After the video of the Getafe match, which again showed you (and the app, by the way) were on the wrong path, you suddenly said that you misunderstood him (why was Atletico an exception, then?). Everyone understood what he meant, including you. In fact, we were already discussing for pages how Messi drops deep for the recent Barcelona squads and for Argentina to initiate attacks. There was litereally no reason to think he could have meant off the ball movement or defensive contribution. You trusted the data in the app a little bit too much and didn't think of the possibility that Messi's heatmap in ball possession could look vastly different to the one without it. But instead of confessing it, you now argue that you understood it incorrectly (respectively that others didn't articulat themselves accurately enough, because of course it simply can't be your fault). With the previous discussion about playmaking, contribution and build up in mind, it was obvious what we were speaking of. Nobody said that Messi played defensively like a center midfielder and there is no reason why you should think someone wanted to argue this when the whole point ofthe discussion was that Messi dropped deep and takes over responsibilities of the CM. I know very well that he has a very low workload and usually walks backwards after possession is lost but this was irrelevant in the debate we had.
 
Zehner said:
Aguero is scoring once every 96 minutes this season, Salah once every 90 minutes and Messi once every 105 minutes. This difference is not that great and can be explained with statistical variation. They are in the same bracket. And no, there are not hundreds of forwards who play as deep. I can't think of another forward that regularly positions himself at the same height as the CM and deeper than the wingers and the other striker. If they did, they would be playing a false nine and in all honesty, I haven't seen this concept used effectively outside of Barcelona. And no, Benzema doesn't play the same role as Messi. That's a ridiculous thing to say. He is a supporting striker who creates space for Cristiano, feeds him with passes and doesn't need to score that mich, this is true, but he doesn't drop into the midfield and initiate attacks. That's the task of Modric and Kroos.

And where didn't I phrase it correctly? You simply refuse to admint that you were wrong. You made it seem like Ishdalar's statement that Messi usually has 2-5 players ahead of him was completely ridiculous.
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That's because it is completely ridiculous... What the actual feck? I already proved it is false, it was a blatant lie. He's regularly the furthest player on the team and his average position on the pitch is the furthest up or the second furthest up in 95% of games. Football isn't just played when the ball is at a players feet, they play for the rest of the match too. Messi drops deep often just like a bunch of other forwards do, he doesn't play in midfield. He averages the same positions on the pitch as Benzema throughout games and without the ball Benzema doesn't defend either.

Scoring 1 goal every 90 minutes or 1 goal every 105 minutes is a big difference too. This season Salah's scoring more than Messi by a considerable margin and so are plenty of other players. Which is why the 'Messi plays in midfield but still manages to score as much as anyone' is complete bullshit as usual because first, he doesn't play in midfield and second, he doesn't score as much as anyone.

Zehner said:
Then someone showed you evidence and you argued that the Atletico game was just an exception. After the video of the Getafe match, which again showed you (and the app, by the way) were on the wrong path, you suddenly said that you misunderstood him (why was Atletico an exception, then?). Everyone understood what he meant, including you. In fact, we were already discussing for pages how Messi drops deep for the recent Barcelona squads and for Argentina to initiate attacks. There was litereally no reason to think he could have meant off the ball movement or defensive contribution. You trusted the data in the app a little bit too much and didn't think of the possibility that Messi's heatmap in ball possession could look vastly different to the one without it. But instead of confessing it, you now argue that you understood it incorrectly (respectively that others didn't articulat themselves accurately enough, because of course it simply can't be your fault). With the previous discussion about playmaking, contribution and build up in mind, it was obvious what we were speaking of. Nobody said that Messi played defensively like a center midfielder and there is no reason why you should think someone wanted to argue this when the whole point ofthe discussion was that Messi dropped deep and takes over responsibilities of the CM. I know very well that he has a very low workload and usually walks backwards after possession is lost but this was irrelevant in the debate we had.
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What? I didn't misunderstand anything, what are you even talking about? He said Messi played with 2 to 4-5 players ahead of him, I showed he doesn't. I showed what he said was complete bullshit. It has nothing to do with where he stays when they don't have the ball, which is why it's the same no matter the opponent wether they dominate or not. I give up with this, it's honestly impossible. I'm arguing something I don't even think it matters at all just to try to show the logic of it to someone who will just move the goalposts every single time, it's just too stupid. We're so far off where this discussion even started I don't remember how it correlates to the original point which was discussing their whole careers, not this season...
 
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One bicycle goal and Cristiano shortens the gap by 10%? :lol: Tells a lot how fickle sometimes football fans are.
 
Schneckerl said:
Yes, agreed that he was essential for them to win it.


His games ranged from fantastic (Hungary & Wales) to terrible. Don't know how to call that. Such a mixed bag.

He was more consistently good in '08 and '12. I'd say he was great vs Czech (2x), Turkey and the Netherlands and had one awful match against Denmark.
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totally
 
Peyroteo said:
How many times... I did challenge it, about 20 different times. It might geniunely be the 20th time I'm telling you the exact same thing.

Since Ronaldo's been in Madrid he has 445 goals in 430 games, Messi has 463 goals in 467 games. You saying something like 'Messi scored more than Ronaldo since he's been in Madrid' ignoring the fact Messi's played forty seven more games pretty much sums up how much you care about the truth.

Career goals is irrelevant because Ronaldo played a lot more games when he was a kid and less games in his prime which obviously has a big effect on his career stats. It won't matter though. I'm going to save this comment, in about 2 months when you repeat the same thing I'm just going to link to it.
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Messi has about 30 less career goals in 150 games less. And just because Messi has been in his prime for longer and was better from such a young age you can’t use that against him.

How good they were as youngsters has to be taken into account for their whole careers. We can’t just pick and choose parts of their careers to suit the argument.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
Messi has about 30 less career goals in 150 games less. And just because Messi has been in his prime for longer and was better from such a young age you can’t use that against him.

How good they were as youngsters has to be taken into account for their whole careers. We can’t just pick and choose parts of their careers to suit the argument.
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They want to pick whatever puts Ronaldo in a higher level than Messi, tough one though.
 
Peyroteo said:
What? I didn't misunderstand anything, what are you even talking about? He said Messi played with 2 to 4-5 players ahead of him, I showed he doesn't. I showed what he said was complete bullshit. It has nothing to do with where he stays when they don't have the ball, which is why it's the same no matter the opponent wether they dominate or not.
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He said that Messi plays with 2 to 4-5 players ahead of him and someone showed you two video break downs which proved that Messi had 2 to 4-5 players ahead of him in 90% of his ball actions. Yet you still call his argument complete bullshit :lol: Now look at the context of his claim. We were talking about Messi dropping deep to facilitate and initiate the attacking play and help out the CM. With this in mind, it makes no sense to argue "but he doesn't have 2 to 4-5 players ahead of him when he doesn't have the ball". Ishdalar was right, simple as that. Either you misunderstood him (which I don't believe, I think you were simply surprised that Messi indeed drops that deep and now clutch at straws because you don't want admit it) or you were wrong (yes).

And of course it has to do with where he is when they don't have the ball - or more precisely, when he doesn't have it. The video showed you that he constantly had 2-5 players ahead of him when he got in possession. Either his off the ball positioning affected the heat maps of your app greatly or these very heat maps are inaccurate. I guess its a mixture of both. And no, this is no qualitative analysis and I don't say what I want to suit my argument. We just proved that in the Getafe game, Messi constantly had multiple players ahead of him despite the heat map of your app saying he is the farthest up front.


Peyroteo said:
I'm arguing something I don't even think it matters at all just to try to show the logic of it to someone who will just move the goalposts every single time, it's just too stupid. We're so far off where this discussion even started I don't remember how it correlates to the original point which was discussing their whole careers, not this season...
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I move the goal posts every single time? Says the guy who constanstly twists around the words of others in order to defend his opinion?

Congratulations, I give up. Discussing with you is just borderline ridiculous. Just wow. How can anyone have so little self reflection? You may seem more reasonable and reflected than Cal? at first but in the end its all the same.
 
Peyroteo said:
You literally chose the only game where he played further back :lol:

https://i.imgur.com/p1i6fWh.png

https://i.imgur.com/NJ78RPT.png

https://i.imgur.com/4I0WZjt.png

https://i.imgur.com/IINpxtC.png

https://i.imgur.com/pYYCE8i.png

https://i.imgur.com/TVzWp5k.png

https://i.imgur.com/tdHmbKj.png

https://i.imgur.com/wPUV5xN.png

https://i.imgur.com/usHUVNe.png

People who say he's been playing in midfield or that he plays a lot deeper than Ronaldo are wrong. He drops deep to get the ball, but on average he's not there often which was what was being claimed
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This is wrong Peyroteo. You make some great points but this isn’t one of them.
 
Peyroteo said:
That's because it is completely ridiculous... What the actual feck? I already proved it is false, it was a blatant lie. He's regularly the furthest player on the team and his average position on the pitch is the furthest up or the second furthest up in 95% of games. Football isn't just played when the ball is at a players feet, they play for the rest of the match too. Messi drops deep often just like a bunch of other forwards do, he doesn't play in midfield. He averages the same positions on the pitch as Benzema throughout games and without the ball Benzema doesn't defend either.

Scoring 1 goal every 90 minutes or 1 goal every 105 minutes is a big difference too. This season Salah's scoring more than Messi by a considerable margin and so are plenty of other players. Which is why the 'Messi plays in midfield but still manages to score as much as anyone' is complete bullshit as usual because first, he doesn't play in midfield and second, he doesn't score as much as anyone.



What? I didn't misunderstand anything, what are you even talking about? He said Messi played with 2 to 4-5 players ahead of him, I showed he doesn't. I showed what he said was complete bullshit. It has nothing to do with where he stays when they don't have the ball, which is why it's the same no matter the opponent wether they dominate or not. I give up with this, it's honestly impossible. I'm arguing something I don't even think it matters at all just to try to show the logic of it to someone who will just move the goalposts every single time, it's just too stupid. We're so far off where this discussion even started I don't remember how it correlates to the original point which was discussing their whole careers, not this season...
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Do you really believe that Benzema is picking up the ball alongside Casemero and Kroos deep in midfield more often than not? There isn't a forward who drops as deep as Messi.

You say we're changing the goalposts but it was you who changed the goalposts; I offered you the Atletico game as an example and it's 'oh that's the ONE game he played further back' then posted a list of games of which I picked the first one, against Getafe where he played even deeper and you just flat-out deny it and say you've proven it wrong by listing an app which claims he played level with Suarez. So I ask you again, did he not play further back against Atletico now? You failed to address this point in my last post.

I've never been one for stats but I've always found this thread fascinating and I've seen you put some compelling arguments down in favour for Ronaldo which have made me think, after this and your blank refusal to admit something so obvious, when there's literally a video proving something you found so wrong it was laughable, it's kinda going to make me think twice about taking things on face value from you, as an outsider looking in. You're religious and you're chosing to not see something that everyone else can.
 
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Moby said:
Absolute rubbish.

Go and have a read about who Diego Maradona was.
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How is it rubbish?

The main thing Messi has over Maradona is the ridiculous goalscoring. Without that it's pretty close between them and they're very similar players.
 
Moby said:
Saying Messi's creative ability is anywhere near Maradona's is, very simply, rubbish.
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Oh come on Moby, Maradona and Messi are very much comparable when it comes to creativity, yes when it comes to dictating a game, now that is a different and Maradona is comfortably better, and since Messi is more goal oriented, you can say he is not a playmaker like Maradona.
But creativity or orchrestating an attack, I don't agree Maradona was any better, as good, maybe he had few more fancy pass options, but overall they are in same level.

Although I agree with your original point, Maradona and Messi are nothing alike, apart from being lefty Argentine midget.
 
From what I've seen, Maradona was the more spectacular player while Messi is more efficient. You could say Messi is a genius while Diego was a mad genius, if that makes sense. Leo has better and more cautious decision making. Maradona often did things you would initially consider "stupid" but sometimes they worked out and the wow effect was even bigger. Things like rabonas, overhead crosses, skill moves, crazy shots/lobs, dribblings into three or four opponents and stuff like that. Made some of his plays incredible but overall he was less efficient, kind of like Ronaldinho or even R9. With Messi you most often know what he is going to do but you cannot stop him anyway. He keeps things much more "simple" and relies on less spectacular things that he executes perfectly.



This is a compilation of Messi's passing. I don't think Maradona was more creative or had a better passing technique but he was more risk taking. Yet, many of Messi's passes are among the most brillant I ever saw.
 
The thing is with these two, Messi could play as a central midfielder, and a deep lying playmaker, on the left, on the right, as the CAM, false 9, second striker etc. Ronaldo could only do the bolded ones and probably wouldn't be that effective. Messi would be the best player on the pitch in any of them positions regardless of which players are on the field.
 
Lord SInister said:
Oh come on Moby, Maradona and Messi are very much comparable when it comes to creativity, yes when it comes to dictating a game, now that is a different and Maradona is comfortably better, and since Messi is more goal oriented, you can say he is not a playmaker like Maradona.
But creativity or orchrestating an attack, I don't agree Maradona was any better, as good, maybe he had few more fancy pass options, but overall they are in same level.

Although I agree with your original point, Maradona and Messi are nothing alike, apart from being lefty Argentine midget.
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IMO in terms of ability they are/were very much alike. Besides the obvious of being Argentinian and left footed, both physically strong and quick despite their small stature, probably the two best dribblers of a football ever, both creative geniuses, free kicks, passing, one man army at times etc. Messi is the more consistent of the two and carries a bigger goal threat than Maradona ever did, but Maradona was better mentally equipped in the more difficult moments, had an uncanny ability to grab a game by the scruff of the neck and galvanise the rest of his team mates. Messi can do it, but not quite to the same degree Maradona used to.

They're the two best players ever forming a top 3 with Pele for obvious reasons. Messi shades it for me on consistency alone though. He's been doing it for alot longer than Maradona and as he's getting older he's developed into an even more dangerous player. Tad less explosive than he used to be, but a more intelligent player. Doesn't need to exert energy beating two or three players when one pass will do it.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
The thing is with these two, Messi could play as a central midfielder, and a deep lying playmaker, on the left, on the right, as the CAM, false 9, second striker etc. Ronaldo could only do the bolded ones and probably wouldn't be that effective. Messi would be the best player on the pitch in any of them positions regardless of which players are on the field.
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How does that help? You'd still play him at his best position.

Ronaldo would probably be miles better than Messi at goalkeeping and any of the defensive positions, but he wouldn't be played there anyway.
 
I think at this stage, neither opinion is wrong. My personal opinion is that Messi is the better footballer but I will not argue with someone who believes Ronaldo to be the better player. I also believe that as things stand, history will probably label Ronaldo as the 'greater' player due to his CL records and having an international trophy on his resume. This could change going forward obviously.

Lets just enjoy both of them for however many years before we go back to normality where a player scoring 20 goals a season was good and 30 goals was incredible.
 
Cal? said:
How does that help? You'd still play him at his best position.

Ronaldo would probably be miles better than Messi at goalkeeping and any of the defensive positions, but he wouldn't be played there anyway.
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I’d have messi at left or right back before Ronnie.
 
Moby said:
Absolute rubbish.

Go and have a read about who Diego Maradona was.
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When people talk about Maradona means they don’t know shit, he was in a different level than messi and ronaldo actually both players (messi and ronaldo) are of same level, one with his dribbling skills and the other from a tricky young player to a machine, in an entertaining perspective today I would say Messi wins just because I like to see a player dribbling but in the past on the early years at United I preferred to watch ronaldo because was exciting watching.
 
People talking about Messi's goalscoring record versus Maradona have no clue
 
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