Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Peyroteo]

You are using the ‘CDR is not important’ narrative to fit your argument. Because you can’t justify any other way for Messi to out score your precious Ronaldo the greatest goal scorer of all time.

How many times are you going to say the same stupid thing and I'm going to correct you... it's about the 10th different time I'm going to tell you the exact same thing in a span of about 2 years. If you believe career goals per game ratio is a fair measure of how good of a goalscorer a player is, then you're an idiot.

And no, Messi does not score more goals than Ronaldo. Ronaldo scores more goals than Messi and that is a fact.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

How many times are you going to say the same stupid thing and I'm going to correct you... it's about the 10th different time I'm going to tell you the exact same thing in a span of about 2 years. If you believe career goals per game ratio is a fair measure of how good of a goalscorer a player is, then you're an idiot.

And no, Messi does not score more goals than Ronaldo. Ronaldo scores more goals than Messi and that is a fact.

Probably going to have to stop debating with you cos you are clearly clueless and bias.

Messi is a better goal scorer because he has scored more goals in less games, and a lot less shots.

How can a player not be a better goal scorer when he has almost equal goals to Ron in about 150 games less. Whilst taking far less shots in the process. It is not rocket science to understand Messi is more efficient with his goal scoring.

Haha it really isn’t a fact, Messi has more goals since Ron arrived at Madrid. The record for goals in a calendar year, and 30 ish goals less in a significantly less amount of games.

How can you not acknowledge that kind of stuff.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Perhaps we can suspend the career goals debate untill both of their careers have ended. How's about that folks?

 

[Zehner]

Did you just compare playing in the CL group stages with Real Madrid to playing a group stage in the Euros with Portugal? What?

Yes. You played against Iceland, Hungary and Austria. You were favourites to win this group by a landslide. Everything but making it to the knockout stages would be a huge disappointment, just like it would've been for Madrid this season. You cannot say "Ronaldo is so important, he scored in the group stage" but simultaneously argue "Messi scores primarily in the group stage of the CL thus he is inferior." This whole line of argument seems agenda driven and constructed. Cherry picking at its best.

And no, we didn't need a change in regulation. The change in regulation happened before the tournament, not after. Everyone already knew 3rd place would go through, we finished third. What's the problem? If 2 teams went through then the games wouldn't obviously have played out the same way. It's so freaking stupid... and i'm not even sure what the feck that has to do with Ronaldo but it gets stupidly repeated over and over again in this thread.

So you are arguing that you played uninspired football by intent and not because you could not do better? Come on. Even if it would have been clear in the beginning that only two teams go through, your opponents would have played the same way against you. And Portugal didn't intended to draw these matches. That's just silly. You've played far below your potential and yet managed to win the whole thing. You were lucky, simple as that just like exemplarily Chelsea when they won the CL.

What that has to do with Ronaldo? Well, obviously his EC title is brought up a lot as an argument of why he should be regarded as the greater player. Thus its quite an important if neither his team nor him really performed.

Exactly, now you understand it. If instead of shooting a bycicle kick Ronaldo brings it down and shoots, the goal would have counted the same. But now he's a genius for a few days instead of being a poacher who does nothing else. If Ronaldo picks the ball up on the half way line and scores from distance he's just good at scoring... if Messi picks it up on the half way line dribbles past 4 and scores then he's a good dribbler and a good finisher. Messi has freedom on the pitch and for the last years they've been occupying pretty much the same position on the team as the second furthest player on their teams... (not true this season for Ronaldo anymore). So your theory of the Gerd Muller comparisons that are like a cancer that won't die doesn't make any sense.

The difference is that Ronaldo hasn't had a screamer in years and in total scored maybe 10 of them while Messi creates chances through his dribbling game in game out. Ronaldo doesn't drop deep and initiates attacks. It is like it is. And for people who think that this is important, this makes the difference between the two. And this is also why it is ridiculous that you say they occupied the same position. Messi plays deeper than Cristiano on ever heat chart you can find.

I think that the best point you over brought up in this whole thread was the fact that for Madrid, it is often enough to create half chances since they have Ronaldo in the box. Thus they don't need to create that many clear scoring opportunities but they are already dangerous once the have the ball around the box. This is similar to Barcelona being a threat as soon as Messi has time and space to turn towards the opponent's goal in the opposition half. That way, Ronaldo contributes a lot. However, I still rate Messi's contribution much higher.

The problem with the qualitive evaluation is that you can say whatever the hell you want and pretend it's true when it's blatantly not. Just like two posts ago you said Ronaldo didn't create chances... So the guy who has no role in chance creation creates more chances than anyone on his team just because he's upfront... but then does he create chances or not? First, you said he didn't, now you say he does. Or does he not create the type of chances you like to watch? If he moves off the ball, gets into a good position, plays a simple pass to a teammates and it's a goal, it's worth the same as a goal after a throughball after all. Goals after crosses are worth the same too. And if you think most of Messi's assists aren't pretty much the same as Ronaldo's then you're wrong too.

Yes, the goal is worth the same. But In order for him to be able to play a simple pass as an assist, the midfield and other players have to do their jobs in the first place. At the recent Barcelona and for Argentina, this is often Messi's job. He receives the ball around the halfway line with 4-5 players of his own team before him, dribbles one, plays a forward bass and gets it back, then shoots himself or plays it out wide to Alba/whoever. He is involved in the build up, the switch to attacking play, key passes, assisting and scoring - the complete supply chain. He even did that when he had his goal record season and often played with Xavi and Iniesta. That is what people mean when they talk about playmaking ability. Ronaldo is a brillant attacking player, especially on the counter. But Messi rivals him in that discipline and is more on top.

If you ignore the things Ronaldo's better at and only judge players on the things Messi's better at then no shit, Messi's going to be the better player.

That is true but it goes both ways. Exemplarily this typical phrase "well, goals are the most important things in football" as an argument for Cristiano. It completely ignores the fact that there are much more players involved in the scoring of a goal than the one who puts it in the net - and often (I would even say more often than not) those who didn't score the goal contributed more to it than the actual scorer.

 

[Peyroteo]

Probably going to have to stop debating with you cos you are clearly clueless and bias.

Messi is a better goal scorer because he has scored more goals in less games, and a lot less shots.

How can a player not be a better goal scorer when he has almost equal goals to Ron in about 150 games less. Whilst taking far less shots in the process. It is not rocket science to understand Messi is more efficient with his goal scoring.

Haha it really isn’t a fact, Messi has more goals since Ron arrived at Madrid. The record for goals in a calendar year, and 30 ish goals less in a significantly less amount of games.

How can you not acknowledge that kind of stuff.

How many times... I did challenge it, about 20 different times. It might geniunely be the 20th time I'm telling you the exact same thing.

Since Ronaldo's been in Madrid he has 445 goals in 430 games, Messi has 463 goals in 467 games. You saying something like 'Messi scored more than Ronaldo since he's been in Madrid' ignoring the fact Messi's played forty seven more games pretty much sums up how much you care about the truth.

Career goals is irrelevant because Ronaldo played a lot more games when he was a kid and less games in his prime which obviously has a big effect on his career stats. It won't matter though. I'm going to save this comment, in about 2 months when you repeat the same thing I'm just going to link to it.

 

[Peyroteo]

Yes. You played against Iceland, Hungary and Austria. You were favourites to win this group by a landslide. Everything but making it to the knockout stages would be a huge disappointment, just like it would've been for Madrid this season. You cannot say "Ronaldo is so important, he scored in the group stage" but simultaneously argue "Messi scores primarily in the group stage of the CL thus he is inferior." This whole line of argument seems agenda driven and constructed. Cherry picking at its best.

So you believe Portugal are as likely to get out of that group as Barcelona are to get out of the group stages of the Champions League? And you also believe Messi scoring in the group stages is as important as him scoring in the knockouts???

So you are arguing that you played uninspired football by intent and not because you could not do better? Come on. Even if it would have been clear in the beginning that only two teams go through, your opponents would have played the same way against you. And Portugal didn't intended to draw these matches. That's just silly. You've played far below your potential and yet managed to win the whole thing. You were lucky, simple as that just like exemplarily Chelsea when they won the CL.

The last 30 minutes of the Hungary game was pretty much a non agression pact... do you think it would have been the same if only 2 teams go through? It's such a stupid argument to make. Portugal didn't deserve to win the tournament because they got 3rd in a group where 3 teams go to the next stage No, we wouldn't have played as defensively as we did if 2 teams got through either.

The difference is that Ronaldo hasn't had a screamer in years and in total scored maybe 10 of them while Messi creates chances through his dribbling game in game out. Ronaldo doesn't drop deep and initiates attacks.

Ronaldo hasn't had a screamer in years and has scored about 10 of them You can't be serious...

He does drop deep and initiate attacks, he just doesn't do it as often as Messi.



Anything you've claimed Ronaldo doesn't do at all I can find videos of him doing in the past 5 or 6 games. Not doing it as often as Messi doesn't mean he doesn't do it at all.

It is like it is. And for people who think that this is important, this makes the difference between the two. And this is also why it is ridiculous that you say they occupied the same position. Messi plays deeper than Cristiano on ever heat chart you can find.

Not really, this season and most of last season yes. The past few seasons, no. From 2006 to well into his Madrid career it was the exact opposite.

Yes, the goal is worth the same. But In order for him to be able to play a simple pass as an assist, the midfield and other players have to do their jobs in the first place.

So does Barcelona's midfield for Messi, it's the exact same.

That is true but it goes both ways. Exemplarily this typical phrase "well, goals are the most important things in football" as an argument for Cristiano. It completely ignores the fact that there are much more players involved in the scoring of a goal than the one who puts it in the net - and often (I would even say more often than not) those who didn't score the goal contributed more to it than the actual scorer.

It is very rare that the player who contributed most to a goal wasn't the actual scorer. The problem is that in goals like these, the passer will get recognition instead of the scorer whose run/positioning was what made the goal possible.

 

[Daysleeper]

I'm not sure about that. Argentina have some really good players who I think sometimes get intimidated by Messi and just let him carry the load. I know when he doesn't play their performance suffers but I wonder how they would do long term if he wasn't playing. Portugal on the other hand (for the most part) are just not very good without Ronaldo. Sure they can play above themselves as they did in the Euro final but when they won it, it was more of a surprise than anything else.

I disagree, Portugal look much better without Ronaldo than Argentina have without Messi.

I know the final was one game but still...it was a final and they won without him. They have much better chemistry and management than Argentina which has been carousel of bad coaches after Sabella

And if Messi scored his chance against Germany he’d be a World Cup winner. But he didn’t. So stop blaming Higuain. Do people not realise how ridiculous they sound when they make statements like ‘Messi had Higuain, Ronaldo had Eder’?

Messi also has to do EVERYTHING for Argentina. Higuain has ONE job as a striker. To score goals and he’s been quite poor at that. His misses for Argentina are legendary.

Messi plays deeper than ever for them because they have no midfield. He has to get the ball from out back, bring it up and create everything. Higuain has passes spoon fed to him.

Messi may have missed his penalty and the ONE chance against Germany but if he was on receiving end of the changes Higuain was given it would be a completely different story.

 

[Peyroteo]

I disagree, Portugal look much better without Ronaldo than Argentina have without Messi.

How many times have you watched Portugal play without Ronaldo besides the Euros final? Not even once...

 

[Daysleeper]

How many times have you watched Portugal play without Ronaldo besides the Euros final? Not even once...

Doesn’t matter, it’s a FINAL, how many teams would be able to win a final without their best player? Pepe deserves as much credit as Ronaldo (and yes, Ronaldo has a good tournament) the same way Mascherano deserves a ton of credit with Messi for the 2014 WC run.

Portugal winning a final without a ronaldo absolutely shows how good they were as a unit, not just Ronaldo alone.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...sh-without-ronaldo-on-the-pitch-idUSKCN0ZR14Q

 

[Pocho]

I disagree, Portugal look much better without Ronaldo than Argentina have without Messi.

I know the final was one game but still...it was a final and they won without him. They have much better chemistry and management than Argentina which has been carousel of bad coaches after Sabella




Messi also has to do EVERYTHING for Argentina. Higuain has ONE job as a striker. To score goals and he’s been quite poor at that. His misses for Argentina are legendary.

Messi plays deeper than ever for them because they have no midfield. He has to get the ball from out back, bring it up and create everything. Higuain has passes spoon fed to him.

Messi may have missed his penalty and the ONE chance against Germany but if he was on receiving end of the changes Higuain was given it would be a completely different story.

In Argentina he played lots of games as a CM.

 

[Peyroteo]

Doesn’t matter, it’s a FINAL, how many teams would be able to win a final without their best player? Pepe deserves as much credit as Ronaldo (and yes, Ronaldo has a good tournament) the same way Mascherano deserves a ton of credit with Messi for the 2014 WC run.

Portugal winning a final without a ronaldo absolutely shows how good they were as a unit, not just Ronaldo alone.

I'm just surprised at how you can make a statement like that without even watching Portugal play.

We didn't play great in the final and we didn't play like a unit either. France just missed chance after chance, got tired in extra time and Eder scored from nowhere. It's football, that can happen.

 

[Peyroteo]

In Argentina he played lots of games as a CM.

Why doesn't he play as a CM in the World Cup then and Dybala plays in his regular position? Isn't Argentina's midfield their problem?

 

[KirkDuyt]

Ronaldo played more games as a kid? Didn't Messi make his debut at 16?

 

[Pocho]

Why doesn't he play as a CM in the World Cup then and Dybala plays in his regular position? Isn't Argentina's midfield their problem?

Good question, maybe he will play as a CM, again.

 

[Zehner]

So you believe Portugal are as likely to get out of that group as Barcelona are to get out of the group stages of the Champions League? And you also believe Messi scoring in the group stages is as important as him scoring in the knockouts???

Depends on the CL group. But yes, in general it is. Portugal had not a single competitor on the same level in this group. Look at Madrid's group this year with Tottenham and Dortmund. Or Chelsea's with Atletico and Rome. You have to be lucky in order to draw a group in which there isn't at least one additional top team. Before the recent changes, it used to be similar in the EC.

The last 30 minutes of the Hungary game was pretty much a non agression pact... do you think it would have been the same if only 2 teams go through? It's such a stupid argument to make. Portugal didn't deserve to win the tournament because they got 3rd in a group where 3 teams go to the next stage No, we wouldn't have played as defensively as we did if 2 teams got through either.

Yeah, so Portugal, that saw itself as a title contender, intended to draw its first games in order to go through with the intitially uncertain third place. Honestly, this is simply ridiculous. This may be true for the last 30 minutes of the Hungary game but what about the previous two games? And besides that, if Portugal would have attacked more it could as well had gone in a different direction. This is just distraction from the fact that Portugal played underwhelming football, failed to win the games and got extremely lucky during the EC. You still have the title, but naming this as a reason to place Ronaldo before Messi is just ridiculous. Especially if you see what Messi did during WC 2014 and Copa America 2016, even aside his goals.

Ronaldo hasn't had a screamer in years and has scored about 10 of them You can't be serious...

You talked about Ronaldo picking up a ball on the half way line and scoring from a distance. He hasn't been doing these kind of things for ages and even back in the day at United it were very rare goals when he scored from 30 meters plus. Messi does his thing much more often. Watch his highlight videos of the Copa final. Basically, Argentina's whole offense consisted of Messi getting the ball at the circle and trying his best to start attacks by beating multiple players and setting up the forwards. In Barcelona he gets more help but he still does it multiple times a game.

He does drop deep and initiate attacks, he just doesn't do it as often as Messi.



Anything you've claimed Ronaldo doesn't do at all I can find videos of him doing in the past 5 or 6 games. Not doing it as often as Messi doesn't mean he doesn't do it at all.

Yes, of course he does it "occasionally" and that was a pass Messi would be proud of. Probably every attacking player does it now and then and obviously "he never does it" is an exaggeration. But honestly, these kind of plays occur very, very rarely with Cristiano. He plays 1.4 key passes per game according to WhoScored which is pretty average for an offensive player in his position. Especially on his level and with such team mates.

So does Barcelona's midfield for Messi, it's the exact same.

No, it isn't and I think you know that very well. Messi participates much more in the build up, plays much more passes and drops deeper. And he also has been doing this with Xavi and Iniesta. in their prime.

It is very rare that the player who contributed most to a goal wasn't the actual scorer. The problem is that in goals like these, the passer will get recognition instead of the scorer whose run/positioning was what made the goal possible.

No, it is not very rare and it is the reason why historically the best players tended to be playmakers. Yes, movement and runs are also very important but athleticism and a certain "tactical understanding are enough to execute them while the assists take more technical ability and at least the same amount of intelligence/instinct/awareness or whatever you want to call it. If watch compilations of Messi assisting (or of assists that were not converted by his team mates), it is simply amazing.

And they still get less recognition than goals because these kind of plays will be quickly forgotten if the receiving player didn't score - which is amazingly often the case.

 

[PuyolC]

@Peyroteo what you're saying is wrong.
Ronaldo doesn't create the most chances even in his own team. You can check squawka if you want, Marcelo, Kroos and Isco created more chances than him this season: http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m...rvajal/862/862/2062/0/p#chances_created#total

Also comparing Messi's creative role to Ronaldo is laughable. Messi this season has created 74 chances in the league, so you can clearly see that Messi is a better playmaker and passer and the off the ball movement from Ronaldo isn't enough for him to be as creative as players like Messi or Neymar.

Also claiming that Ronaldo played deeper than Messi in his career except this season is again false.. You can watch matches of Barca and Real or check the heat maps of the players and everyone would see that what you're saying is wrong.

 

[Peyroteo]

@Peyroteo what you're saying is wrong.
Ronaldo doesn't create the most chances even in his own team. You can check squawka if you want, Marcelo, Kroos and Isco created more chances than him this season: http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m...rvajal/862/862/2062/0/p#chances_created#total

Also comparing Messi's creative role to Ronaldo is laughable. Messi this season has created 74 chances in the league, so you can clearly see that Messi is a better playmaker and passer and the off the ball movement from Ronaldo isn't enough for him to be as creative as players like Messi or Neymar.

Also claiming that Ronaldo played deeper than Messi in his career except this season is again false.. You can watch matches of Barca and Real or check the heat maps of the players and everyone would see that what you're saying is wrong.

Every single thing you’re arguing against... I didn’t say.

I didn’t say Ronaldo created more chances than any Madrid player this season, I didn’t compare Ronaldo’s and Messi’s creative role this season and I didn’t say Ronaldo’s played deeper for all of his career other than this season.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

Ronaldo played more games as a kid? Didn't Messi make his debut at 16?

Messi was injured a lot when he broke through - apparently being in and out of the team at a young age helped him score more goals than Ronaldo at the beginning of his career. We all know the key to becoming a consistent goalscorer is by lying on the physio's table, not being able to train and having to regain fitness every time you come back from injury. It's as if these people think that like FM or FIFA, Messi's finishing stats got better simply because he got older, rather than him actually being a better finisher, whom would had have an even better goalscoring record had he have been as fit as Ronaldo and being able to consistently train and play when he broke through.

 

[Peyroteo]

Depends on the CL group. But yes, in general it is. Portugal had not a single competitor on the same level in this group. Look at Madrid's group this year with Tottenham and Dortmund. Or Chelsea's with Atletico and Rome. You have to be lucky in order to draw a group in which there isn't at least one additional top team. Before the recent changes, it used to be similar in the EC.

Madrid are way better than Dortmund than Portugal are to Iceland, Hungary or Austria.

Yeah, so Portugal, that saw itself as a title contender, intended to draw its first games in order to go through with the intitially uncertain third place. Honestly, this is simply ridiculous. This may be true for the last 30 minutes of the Hungary game but what about the previous two games? And besides that, if Portugal would have attacked more it could as well had gone in a different direction. This is just distraction from the fact that Portugal played underwhelming football, failed to win the games and got extremely lucky during the EC. You still have the title, but naming this as a reason to place Ronaldo before Messi is just ridiculous. Especially if you see what Messi did during WC 2014 and Copa America 2016, even aside his goals.

I didn't argue that last part though, I never said Ronaldo winning an international trophy made him the better player as it obviously doesn't. I'm arguing the first part where you're discrediting Portugal's win because we came 3rd in our group which is bullshit. We obviously didn't intend to draw every game, but we would have taken more risks if only 2 teams went through. Saying we would have been eliminated in the previous format as if everything would have gone the same way if the format was different is unfair.

Messi does his thing much more often. Watch his highlight videos of the Copa final. Basically, Argentina's whole offense consisted of Messi getting the ball at the circle and trying his best to start attacks by beating multiple players and setting up the forwards.

Yeah and that's why it doesn't work. If they built a more team oriented system they would be a lot better than they are.

And they still get less recognition than goals because these kind of plays will be quickly forgotten if the receiving player didn't score - which is amazingly often the case.

They get forgotten but they get appreciated as they're happening. If player A makes the right run but player B misses the pass then player A will never get the credit for making the run and losing his marker.

 

[Peyroteo]

Messi was injured a lot when he broke through - apparently being in and out of the team at a young age helped him score more goals than Ronaldo at the beginning of his career. We all know the key to becoming a consistent goalscorer is by lying on the physio's table, not being able to train and having to regain fitness every time you come back from injury. It's as if these people think that like FM or FIFA, Messi's finishing stats got better simply because he got older, rather than him actually being a better finisher, whom would had have an even better goalscoring record had he have been as fit as Ronaldo and being able to consistently train and play when he broke through.

No, it helped him having a better goals to game ratio which is what he was talking about. He'd have had more goals but his goal to game record would have been worse.

 

[PuyolC]

Every single thing you’re arguing against... I didn’t say.

I didn’t say Ronaldo created more chances than any Madrid player this season, I didn’t compare Ronaldo’s and Messi’s creative role this season and I didn’t say Ronaldo’s played deeper for all of his career other than this season.

You said that "The problem with the qualitive evaluation is that you can say whatever the hell you want and pretend it's true when it's blatantly not. Just like two posts ago you said Ronaldo didn't create chances... So the guy who has no role in chance creation creates more chances than anyone on his team just because he's upfront... but then does he create chances or not?" You are talking about Ronaldo here.

You also said that "Not really, this season and most of last season yes. The past few seasons, no. From 2006 to well into his Madrid career it was the exact opposite." So you think that Messi played deeper than Ronaldo this season and most of last season and from 2006 to 2015 it was the opposite, Ronaldo played deeper than Messi which doesn't make sense.

 

[Peyroteo]

You said that "The problem with the qualitive evaluation is that you can say whatever the hell you want and pretend it's true when it's blatantly not. Just like two posts ago you said Ronaldo didn't create chances... So the guy who has no role in chance creation creates more chances than anyone on his team just because he's upfront... but then does he create chances or not?" You are talking about Ronaldo here.

Not this season though, he mentioned the time where Ronaldo's been winning more which is the past 4/5 years.

You also said that "Not really, this season and most of last season yes. The past few seasons, no. From 2006 to well into his Madrid career it was the exact opposite." So you think that Messi played deeper than Ronaldo this season and most of last season and from 2006 to 2015 it was the opposite, Ronaldo played deeper than Messi which doesn't make sense.

2015? I said well into his Madrid career. Until about 2012 that was the case.

Even last season, this is their heat maps in the league:

Spoiler: Messi heatmap

Spoiler: Ronaldo heatmap

This myth that's created about Messi playing much deeper than Ronaldo in the past few years isn't true at all, he comes deeper down the middle of the pitch to get the ball more often but he doesn't play deeper. 2017/18 is the first season of Ronaldo's career where he is the most forward player on his team.

 

[Cal?]

You still ignore my point regarding Ronaldo not scoring in the knockout stages of the EC. After all, your entire argument of Ronaldo being the best is based on you downplaying the importance of goals in the group stage yet suddenly, Ronaldo has had a great tournament because without him respectively his two goals against Hungary, Portugal wouldn't have survived against them, Iceland and Austria?

Sorry, your complete line of argument doesn't make sense at all and is completely agenda driven. What's important to you is concidentally always the particular things which can be used pro Ronaldo and the other arguments are downplayed with the silliest arguments.

Honestly, if Ronaldo would have as much creativity and imagination on the football pitch as you while defending him, he would probably the greatest sportsmen ever, including future greats. You never get bored of thinking around corners to find excuses. I would say it is self reasoning par excellence but in actuality, you don't promote yourself but Cristiano. It is really odd, after all.

Except for the fact he did score, against Wales.

 

[KirkDuyt]

No, it helped him having a better goals to game ratio which is what he was talking about. He'd have had more goals but his goal to game record would have been worse.

No, it helped him having a better goals to game ratio which is what he was talking about. He'd have had more goals but his goal to game record would have been worse.

While I understand the point, that seems a bit speculative to be honest. I think they should be judged on their total amount of goals when both of their careers are done.

At the moment the only definitive fact seems they’re quite rather prolific

 

[Cal?]

While I understand the point, that seems a bit speculative to be honest. I think they should be judged on their total amount of goals when both of their careers are done.

At the moment the only definitive fact seems they’re quite rather prolific

I’m willing to offer even money for Ronaldo to retire AFTER Messi, any takers?

 

[KirkDuyt]

I’m willing to offer even money for Ronaldo to retire AFTER Messi, any takers?

Wouldn't surprise me honestly.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

No, it helped him having a better goals to game ratio which is what he was talking about.

That's what I'm talking about as well. For some reason, Ronaldo being fit and Messi being injured a lot has somehow been used as an advantage of Messi's when discussing their goal to game ratios.

He'd have had more goals but his goal to game record would have been worse.

But why? Prior his 2008/2009 season where he was became a consistent goalscorer, he had 4 years where he amassed 110 games; who is to say that if he played those 110 games without niggling injuries and interruption he would have scored less goals? It stands to reason that with consistent training and playing time in those years that he would have developed quicker and had a better goal to game ratio than he has now. It's all speculation of course, but I find it strange that some people (well you and Cal?, god bless ya) use this as a way to dismiss their career goal to game ratios.

 

[Peyroteo]

That's what I'm talking about as well. For some reason, Ronaldo being fit and Messi being injured a lot has somehow been used as an advantage of Messi's when discussing their goal to game ratios.



But why? Prior his 2008/2009 season where he was became a consistent goalscorer, he had 4 years where he amassed 110 games; who is to say that if he played those 110 games without niggling injuries and interruption he would have scored less goals? It stands to reason that with consistent training and playing time in those years that he would have developed quicker and had a better goal to game ratio than he has now. It's all speculation of course, but I find it strange that some people (well you and Cal?, god bless ya) use this as a way to dismiss their career goal to game ratios.

It's not strange, it's simple. His career goals per game is 0.81. At that time he scored less than that, so if he had played more games during that time his goal per game ratio for his whole career would be smaller. What's the problem? I still don't understand why you don't think that's true.

This is just to say career goals per game isn't really a good stat to judge who the better goalscorer is since it depends on how their games are distributed throughout their careers (not just Messi's and Ronaldo's, it applies to any other player too), Ronaldo playing more games as a youngster and less games in his prime has a big impact on their overall numbers. That's all.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

It's not strange, it's simple. His career goals per game is 0.81. At that time he scored less than that, so if he had played more games during that time his goal per game ratio for his whole career would be smaller. What's the problem? I still don't understand why you don't think that's true.

Because it's not true, it's speculation. He may very well have improved his goalscoring earlier than he did if he played more and thus his goal to game ratio in turn.

This is just to say career goals per game isn't really a good stat to judge who the better goalscorer is since it depends on how their games are distributed throughout their careers (not just Messi's and Ronaldo's, it applies to any other player too), Ronaldo playing more games as a youngster and less games in his prime has a big impact on their overall numbers. That's all.

If Ronaldo retired at the end of this season and Messi continued playing until he was 35 and his career goal per game ratio began to dwindle below Ronaldo's, I suspect you wouldn't have such a dismissive attitude towards goal per game ratios over entire careers, but then again who am I to talk, that's just speculation!

 

[Ishdalar]

This myth that's created about Messi playing much deeper than Ronaldo in the past few years isn't true at all, he comes deeper down the middle of the pitch to get the ball more often but he doesn't play deeper. 2017/18 is the first season of Ronaldo's career where he is the most forward player on his team.

That's like saying water is wet when you touch it, but not wet if you don't touch it, either Leo comes deeper to midfield, or he doesn't, he's limited by space and time.

Your own heatmaps, with Ronaldo position corrected as if it was a RW player, and centered at the thing you're ignoring.

Now, some people joke at the idea of Messi being god, but afaik he's a human, and still bound by the laws of physics, space and time, if he shows up more at midfield spaces than Ronaldo, he needs to spend time at the spot of the pitch, therefore he does indeed play deeper, you can't scapegoat your way out of that, no matter how many turns you want to make us take.

Those graphs are a poor stat representation, since they don't show any scale, display heat pressence in only three color gradients, yellow, orange, and red, and probably only take into account touches, not their actual position through the game.
We don't know if red is just a high % of their actions on at that spot, if it's compared to the league mean, team mean, or just a set amount of raw variables you can achieve to be shown as active red.

But as always, it's easier, anyone that watches both teams on a regular basis already knows where Messi and Ronaldo play, that Messi usually has from 2 to 4 or even 5 teammates ahead of him and Ronaldo from 0 to 3, because even heatmaps are relative as to how higher up a player is playing relatively to his teammates and the zone of the pitch his team usually controls.

 

[Peyroteo]

Because it's not true, it's speculation. He may very well have improved his goalscoring earlier than he did if he played more and thus his goal to game ratio in turn.



If Ronaldo retired at the end of this season and Messi continued playing until he was 35 and his career goal per game ratio began to dwindle below Ronaldo's, I suspect you wouldn't have such dismissive attitude towards goal per game ratios over entire careers, but then again who am I to talk, that's just speculation!

Of course I would, always said it's stupid.. Obviously if Messi plays until he's 50 and his career goals per games lowers to 0.50 goals per game that doesn't mean he was worse at scoring goals than plenty of other players in his generation.

 

[Peyroteo]

That's like saying water is wet when you touch it, but not wet if you don't touch it, either Leo comes deeper to midfield, or he doesn't, he's limited by space and time.

Your own heatmaps, with Ronaldo position corrected as if it was a RW player, and centered at the thing you're ignoring.

Now, some people joke at the idea of Messi being god, but afaik he's a human, and still bound by the laws of physics, space and time, if he shows up more at midfield spaces than Ronaldo, he needs to spend time at the spot of the pitch, therefore he does indeed play deeper, you can't scapegoat your way out of that, no matter how many turns you want to make us take.

Those graphs are a poor stat representation, since they don't show any scale, display heat pressence in only three color gradients, yellow, orange, and red, and probably only take into account touches, not their actual position through the game.
We don't know if red is just a high % of their actions on at that spot, if it's compared to the league mean, team mean, or just a set amount of raw variables you can achieve to be shown as active red.

But as always, it's easier, anyone that watches both teams on a regular basis already knows where Messi and Ronaldo play, that Messi usually has from 2 to 4 or even 5 teammates ahead of him and Ronaldo from 0 to 3, because even heatmaps are relative as to how higher up a player is playing relatively to his teammates and the zone of the pitch his team usually controls.

Then those people need to start watching the stats and the game better instead of saying stupid things... not that I think you even believe in what you're saying. 'Messi usually has from 2 to 4 or even 5 teammates ahead of him' He's regularly the furthest player on the team.. It literally happened 2 days ago for fecks sake.

Spoiler: Barcelona vs Roma

Spoiler: Last few games

https://i.imgur.com/p1i6fWh.png

https://i.imgur.com/NJ78RPT.png

https://i.imgur.com/4I0WZjt.png

https://i.imgur.com/IINpxtC.png

https://i.imgur.com/pYYCE8i.png

https://i.imgur.com/TVzWp5k.png

https://i.imgur.com/tdHmbKj.png

https://i.imgur.com/wPUV5xN.png

https://i.imgur.com/usHUVNe.png

I mean it's such a blatant and obvious lie... what can I even say to that other than laugh at it? Download sofascore, they have the average positions of players for every single game. Either do that or keep lying about it as I'm sure you will.

Those maps weren't supposed to show Ronaldo plays deeper, they're supposed to show the things you and others constantly say here are obviously not true. Ronaldo now is playing ahead of Messi but that hasn't been the case for most of their careers at all

 

[MalcolmTucker]

'Messi usually has from 2 to 4 or even 5 teammates ahead of him' He's regularly the furthest player on the team..

I mean it's such a blatant and obvious lie... what can I even say to that other than laugh at it?

I think it's fair to say that off the ball, Messi does what he wants, he will stay up and he'll only press when he wants to. On the ball however he does drop deep and pick the ball up from midfield and will often have 2 to 4/5 team mates ahead of him.



This was the last highlight video of a full game of his uploaded to youtube - let's breakdown how many players there are infront of him when he receives the ball...

1st touch - 2 players ahead
2nd - 3
3rd - 4
4th - 2
5th - 3
6th - 7 (from corner)
7th - 2
8th - 3
9th - 4
10th - 2 (from corner)
11th - 4
12th - 3

Right I'm not doing any more, but I watched the rest of the first half and not once did he receive the ball as the furthest player up the pitch, in fact he only received the ball as the 2nd furthest thrice, whereas there were about 5 instances where there were 5 or more players ahead of him in open play. I know it's a small sample size but.. you're wrong.

 

[Peyroteo]

I think it's fair to say that off the ball, Messi does what he wants, he will stay up and he'll only press when he wants to. On the ball however he does drop deep and pick the ball up from midfield and will often have 2 to 4/5 team mates ahead of him.



This was the last highlight video of a full game of his uploaded to youtube - let's breakdown how many players there are infront of him when he receives the ball...

1st touch - 2 players ahead
2nd - 3
3rd - 4
4th - 2
5th - 3
6th - 7 (from corner)
7th - 2
8th - 3
9th - 4
10th - 2 (from corner)
11th - 4
12th - 3

Right I'm not doing any more, but I watched the rest of the first half and not once did he receive the ball as the furthest player up the pitch, in fact he only received the ball as the 2nd furthest thrice, whereas there were about 5 instances where there were 5 or more players ahead of him in open play. I know it's a small sample size but.. you're wrong.

You literally chose the only game where he played further back

Spoiler: Last few games

https://i.imgur.com/p1i6fWh.png

https://i.imgur.com/NJ78RPT.png

https://i.imgur.com/4I0WZjt.png

https://i.imgur.com/IINpxtC.png

https://i.imgur.com/pYYCE8i.png

https://i.imgur.com/TVzWp5k.png

https://i.imgur.com/tdHmbKj.png

https://i.imgur.com/wPUV5xN.png

https://i.imgur.com/usHUVNe.png

People who say he's been playing in midfield or that he plays a lot deeper than Ronaldo are wrong. He drops deep to get the ball, but on average he's not there often which was what was being claimed

 

[Pocho]

Why can't the Ronaldo fans admit that Cristiano is only a goalscorer?

 

[MalcolmTucker]

You literally chose the only game where he played further back

Spoiler: Last few games

https://i.imgur.com/p1i6fWh.png

https://i.imgur.com/NJ78RPT.png

https://i.imgur.com/4I0WZjt.png

https://i.imgur.com/IINpxtC.png

https://i.imgur.com/pYYCE8i.png

https://i.imgur.com/TVzWp5k.png

https://i.imgur.com/tdHmbKj.png

https://i.imgur.com/wPUV5xN.png

https://i.imgur.com/usHUVNe.png

People who say he's been playing in midfield or that he plays a lot deeper than Ronaldo are wrong. He drops deep to get the ball, but on average he's not there often which was what was being claimed

Fine, let's go for the first game in your list then, which claims Suarez and Messi played right alongside each other.. the Getafe game.



Here's the amount of players in front of him when he receives the ball from open play (I excluded plays after corners or freekicks) in the first half;

4, 5, 4, 4, 0, 5, 6, 6, 4, 5, 5, 4, 5, 2, 4, 6, 6, 5, 4, 1, 2, 1, 2, 6, 4, 6. So there you go, he actually played deeper in this game. I hate to break it to you but you and your little app are wrong I'm afraid, as I suspected.

Then those people need to start watching the stats and the game better instead of saying stupid things... not that I think you even believe in what you're saying. 'Messi usually has from 2 to 4 or even 5 teammates ahead of him' He's regularly the furthest player on the team..

Perhaps don't put all your convictions in apps and graphics and stats and watch the games instead. Messi plays a lot deeper than Ronaldo - it's not a myth and all the laughing smileys in the world you and Cal dish out won't change what most rational people already know.

PS. I can't believe I just spent a good chunk of my Friday night counting players on a video to prove some guy I will never meet wrong. Lord a'mercy.

 

[Peyroteo]

Fine, let's go for the first game in your list then, which claims Suarez and Messi played right alongside each other.. the Getafe game.



Here's the amount of players in front of him when he receives the ball from open play (I excluded plays after corners or freekicks) in the first half;

4, 5, 4, 4, 0, 5, 6, 6, 4, 5, 5, 4, 5, 2, 4, 6, 6, 5, 4, 1, 2, 1, 2, 6, 4, 6. So there you go, he actually played deeper in this game. I hate to break it to you but you and your little app are wrong I'm afraid, as I suspected.

No, the app is right. You just took the area of where he's playing which was what was talked about to where he gets the ball from open play only... That's the case for most players that they get the ball with more players ahead of them, obviously. It doesn't mean they play deeper than their teammates and Messi doesn't. As it's proven already.

Perhaps don't put all your convictions in apps and graphics and stats and watch the games instead. Ronaldo is mostly a box player these days, Messi is a playmaker - it's not a myth and all the laughing smileys in the world you and Cal dish out won't change what most rational people already know.

PS. I can't believe I just spent a good chunk of my Friday night counting players on a video to prove some guy I will never meet wrong. Lord a'mercy.

I have barely missed one Barcelona game, so thanks. I do watch the games. Relying on stats to make a point is a lot better than pretending something is true or creating some irrelevant measure with a miniscule sample size to prove yourself right. I wasn't even the one to bring up the heat maps either.

The worst part is I don't even think we're disagreeing, I did say Messi plays further back than Ronaldo this season. Just not in midfield and not by a big margin.

 

[Oscar.Z.Acosta]

Perhaps don't put all your convictions in apps and graphics and stats and watch the games instead

I’ve done a Noel Edmonds and asked the Cosmos for your sentiment to be heeded and world peace. I used to ask for just world peace (lest one be greedy), but this thread is also in dire, dire need.

Help us all, Mr. Blobby.

 

[In Rainbows]

Yeah and that's why it doesn't work. If they built a more team oriented system they would be a lot better than they are.

Not sure how you can say that when we can see the clear difference in Argentina with and without Messi. They are awful without Messi. In general that makes sense, but they haven't had success in doing that. The managers don't have much time to work with their squad.

 

[Peyroteo]

Not sure how you can say that when we can see the clear difference in Argentina with and without Messi. They are awful without Messi. In general that makes sense, but they haven't had success in doing that. The managers don't have much time to work with their squad.

Just to be clear, I wasn't criticizing Messi.

They built a system around the fact Messi can bail them out, the problem is that he most likely won't do it often enough and when he's gone there's no one to bail them out. They might be bad without Messi, but with Messi they haven't been good either. Argentina would be much better if they were built like a proper team that tried to get the best out of their best players.

Their players don't magically turn bad in an Argentina shirt, they're simply not playing roles that suit them and they pass too much responsability to Messi when they shouldn't. It's like they want to relive what Maradona did in 86 when there's no need to.