he's been to three major tournament finals in a row. jesus. you make him sound like he's Gerrard and Lampard.
Messi retires from Argentina.
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he's been to three major tournament finals in a row. jesus. you make him sound like he's Gerrard and Lampard.
Ok, it matters for most fans.
I'm not saying it wouldn't be. I'm saying that along the way they would have played 3 crap teams and possibly more depending on Euro results. If we're judging their level of greatness based on international success then standard of teams faced during height of said success is obviously a crucial factor.
Actually their road to the final is - Croatia, Poland, Belgium/ Wales. Just for the record.
True
And on top of that, it's no wonder he's struggled to transfer club success to the international level. He's playing with Iniesta, Suarez, Neymar, Busquets, Alba and Alves at Barca. At Argentina it's Biglia, Banega, Lamela, Lavezzi, Rojo, Mercado (who?) and fecking Higuain. Decent players but clearly a massive step down in class from his club teammates. This is where people say "the greatest player ever should drag those players to success" but how realistic is that? There's only so much you can do before you come up against a Germany, for example, where they're simply a better and much more balanced side than you. To go back to Ronaldo, you look at his efforts v Hungary, two class goals and doing every thing he could yet those behind him continued to let him down. Great player or no great player there's a limit to the shit you can actually pull out of the bag.
edit: and just thinking, you swap Higuain and Suarez and I'm betting Argentina win those last 3 finals. They at least win 2, IMO.
I totally get you, but like I say, why bring up the World Cup as the decider between the two and not Champions League?
For example, do you think, based purely on difficulty and standard of opposition, that Messi's dominance and winning of the CL is a lesser achievement or says less about his footballing ability than Maradona in 86 or Pele in 58, 62 or 70 (hope i got the years right)? I get that the prize of the World Cup is the ultimate and nothing can top the feeling of winning it but when you're in the World Cup you can be facing some truly awful teams (like Scotland!) because national teams don't have the luxury of going out and spending hundreds of millions making their team a super force the way club teams can do. You're basically stuck with whatever talent your country produces. And in some players cases like Best you're unlucky you born in the wrong country and thus international success was never a legit possibility. I just think the actual standard of club football now is far greater than at any time previously either club or internationally. There's just so many great teams. Barca, Real, Bayern, The English teams, !
Your argument is flawed as well. It's not like Barca plays all those teams every year. They get minnows in the group stages like Rubin Kazan and Copenhagen and even in the knockout rounds Barca rarely ever plays a team with even close to as much talent as them before the SF or finals. It's really exactly the same as international where only 4-5 teams have any realistic chance of winning. Not sure why playing Scotland or Iceland in international counts against someone but the most talented team in the world beating up on Spanish minnows with club turnover less than Messi wages somehow makes club football accomplishments more impressive.
Too much pressure on him is weighing him down.
It was never expected and demanded that Pele and Maradona had to win the world cup and at the same time drag their teams there. Yet it is of Messi?
It was never expected and demanded that Pele and Maradona had to win the world cup and at the same time drag their teams there. Yet it is of Messi?
I never said you said it was a mickey mouse cup however I have seen at least one person on this forum say it. It's importance might have decreased but that's only because certain fans feel so. Although has said fans country had won the trophy in the recent past years they would say differently. Hell I am South African, albeit Portuguese but winning the WC would be amazing. I doubt any fan would feel different.
You're correct but at the same time Scotland and Iceland are limited to the players they can choose from. A minnow like Leicester are out here bidding 30 million left, right and centre to improve their side. Ultimately I just think the challenges of club football are tougher and of a higher standard.
The pressure and abuse might have gotten to him.
I fear he's taken this decision in haste. He's gutted and might have rushed it.
Still the GOAT.
I fear he's taken this decision in haste. He's gutted and might have rushed it.
Still the GOAT.
I disagree that they are objectively tougher or higher standard. They are just different.
I've also tended to notice that the fans that dismiss international football results , at least in my experience, come almost exclusively from cross section of fans of the richest clubs (RM, Barca, Man Utd) who live in nations with not good international teams (like Scotland).
As good as the Champions League, the Internationals are a better measure of talent for me, as it displays the adaptability to a system where everything is not a routine, as is the case in club football. The football maybe of slightly higher quality in the CL, but a World Cup is a better indicator of performance of the highest stage in terms creating an equal platform.
Bit pathetic and cowardly to make that decision so soon. He's no doubt just throwing his toys out of the pram and he'll be back.
It's a relatively easy route to the final. Still, Croatia and Belgium are probably better than Chile and the other team in the final will be much better than Chile. Winning the Euros is way more difficult than winning CA.
Quite harsh.
I get where you're coming from though I disagree because I rate Chile really highly. Unless of course they get a Germany or Spain in the final. But I think it's all relative because I fancy Poland to beat Portugal.
Anyway, the debate isn't between Euro's and Copa but rather Euro's/Copa v Champions League.
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And on top of that, it's no wonder he's struggled to transfer club success to the international level. He's playing with Iniesta, Suarez, Neymar, Busquets, Alba and Alves at Barca. At Argentina it's Biglia, Banega, Lamela, Lavezzi, Rojo, Mercado (who?) and fecking Higuain. Decent players but clearly a massive step down in class from his club teammates. This is where people say "the greatest player ever should drag those players to success" but how realistic is that? There's only so much you can do before you come up against a Germany, for example, where they're simply a better and much more balanced side than you. To go back to Ronaldo, you look at his efforts v Hungary, two class goals and doing every thing he could yet those behind him continued to let him down. Great player or no great player there's a limit to the shit you can actually pull out of the bag.
edit: and just thinking, you swap Higuain and Suarez and I'm betting Argentina win those last 3 finals. They at least win 2, IMO.
yep.
this isn't basketball. there are 22 players on the field, and Messi can't touch the ball every single time.
There is only so much a single player can do on field with 21 other players.
Lol what? And club football wasn't the "pinnacle" of the sport when over a decade ago you had a Real Madrid team featuring Zidane, Ronaldo, Figo, Carlos, Raul, Beckham, Cannavaro? LOL!!!!!!
Club football has been massive for well over a decade now. The only people who even attempt to claim that the World Cup isn't at least as big as the Champions League are either: (1) people who started watching football in 2008 or (2) Messi/CR7 fanbois or (3) people who play too many EA video games.
By any measure (financial, emotional, national, or even from the player's own desire and preferences), the World Cup is FAR BIGGER than any club competition. It is incomparable. Even the players would prefer to win a single WC over 1 or 5 CL finals.
EA Games, FIFA, Nike, Adidas, spend billions of dollars trying to convince sheep that this is the greatest era of football ever, that Messi/CR7 is the greatest and most exciting thing to ever happen in football. This sells merchandise, generates excitement, increases viewership and sponsorships and advertisements and brings in the $$$. You're falling for the hype.
It's no coincidence that the "WC doesn't matter" and the "Messi/CR7 GOAT" claims conveniently coincide PRECISELY at the same time as (1) the influx of massive amounts of $$$ into the sport by commercial interests beginning around 2006 and (2) the proliferation of global TV rights due to satellite and digital television and (3) emergence of smart phones and social media and (4) rise of EA Games making billions.
Lol what? Argentina made it to the finals in an extremely underwhelming fashion, barely beating rivals in the easiest of all groups. 1 goal victories over Bosnia, Iran and Nigeria, lol. Messi then promptly disappeared after the pathetically easy group stages, and Argentina barely beat Switzerland (who just lost to Poland, lol), barely beat Belgium, and had to rely on penalties to get past the Netherlands. "Oooh boo hoo Messi had SUCH a crappy team!" Yeah? Tell that to the Netherlands or Belgium or the Swiss, all of whom Argentina barely beat despite having world beaters in Aguero, Di Maria and Messi!
Who has Messi played with? Oh just world class players like Aguero and Di Maria and Mascherano.
Compare to Ronaldo Lima:
-Winner of 2002 WC with Golden Boot. Scored twice against Germany in final (Messi scored zero). Scored against every team (except in quarterfinal against England), compare to Messi scoring only against Bosnia, Iran, and none of the top teams, lol.
-Runner up 1998 WC
-Winner of Confederations Cup (zero for Messi)
-Winner of Copa America (zero for Messi)
-Winner of Spanish league
-Winner of Italian league
-Winner of UEFA CUp with 2 different teams
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Dude, maybe in your world. I know Argentinians, and the country stops when WC is on. Its the most watched sporting event in the world. Why the feck isn't it UCL finals or La Liga?
Again, Messi would trade 2 or 3 of his UCLs for a World Cup in brazilian soil. Maybe you just don't have the culture or life experience to understand how big it is..Or you live in Iceland or something
True and speaking of basketball (if you're a fan), some of the criticisms are noticeably similar to the criticism LeBron has faced over the years re his winning record in the finals. Yet in spite of that he's comfortably the best basketball player I've ever seen and clearly will be in the GOAT discussion when it's all said and done.
Confederations cup and the UEFA cup
ffs stop wumming.
ffs stop wumming.
That's my point... club football has been the highest standard of professional football for ages now. Back in the 60's and 70's in the days of Pele the World Cup was the pinnacle and what you were judged upon. It isn't now and that's ultimately down to the finances in the club game now.
380 million watched the UCL finals
3.2 billion watched the World Cup finals
yep.. I guess its the same weight and pressure ..
3.2 billion watched the World Cup finals
yep.. I guess its the same weight and pressure ..
I totally agree with you here. He would trade all the club success in the world for one WC with Argentina. I would never dispute that. My view on it, though, is that all that club success he's achieved say more about him as a player and how good he is than that one WC win with Argentina ever would have.
comparing Messi, a #10, to Ronaldo, the most pure #9 of all time when it comes to scoring goals.
I could probably score a goal or two if I had Ronaldinho and Rivaldo and Roberto Carlos feeding me balls.
Poor decision from Messi.True
And on top of that, it's no wonder he's struggled to transfer club success to the international level. He's playing with Iniesta, Suarez, Neymar, Busquets, Alba and Alves at Barca. At Argentina it's Biglia, Banega, Lamela, Lavezzi, Rojo, Mercado (who?) and fecking Higuain. Decent players but clearly a massive step down in class from his club teammates. This is where people say "the greatest player ever should drag those players to success" but how realistic is that? There's only so much you can do before you come up against a Germany, for example, where they're simply a better and much more balanced side than you. To go back to Ronaldo, you look at his efforts v Hungary, two class goals and doing every thing he could yet those behind him continued to let him down. Great player or no great player there's a limit to the shit you can actually pull out of the bag.
edit: and just thinking, you swap Higuain and Suarez and I'm betting Argentina win those last 3 finals. They at least win 2, IMO.
This will be brought up in GOAT discussion and rightly so. Comparing Argentina with Barcelona team would not be fair since Barcelona is currently the most talented team in the world. Every squad in the world will be inferior compared to them. This Argentina team still have more talent than most national team out there and there is no excuse really for them not beating Chile a poorer team in talent than them. Higuain, as poor as he was tonight is Serie A top goalscorer by a large margin. di Maria was also outstanding for PSG.
International football still matter, greatness doesn't come when everything goes your way, it comes when every thing doesn't go your way, and you still triumph anyway.
I am not saying Messi is not a great player, but winning a World Cup/Copa is still a great achievement, and Messi still doesn't show that he can win them.
btw, everyone is cursing Higuain for missing that 1 on 1 but nobody give a feck that Messi screw up his penalty shot?
I think it's because Higuain has missed huge changes in 3 finals in a row now. He's a choker. There'd be no penalties if he scored.
Messi deserves criticism for his penalty, no doubt, but any patience with Higuain has long gone.
World cups and Euros are a great way of judging individual player ability because you see how good a player is outside their comfort zone with unfamiliar team mates and opposition.
His legacy will be diminished by such a decision no doubt. It shows mental weakness.
I hope this is a decision taken to prolong his career and he wants to skip out on friendlies and qualification but will be back for WC 2018. The game of football needs him there not just Argentina.
His legacy will be diminished by such a decision no doubt. It shows mental weakness.
I hope this is a decision taken to prolong his career and he wants to skip out on friendlies and qualification but will be back for WC 2018. The game of football needs him there not just Argentina.
comparing Messi, a #10, to Ronaldo, the most pure #9 of all time when it comes to scoring goals.
I could probably score a goal or two if I had Ronaldinho and Rivaldo and Roberto Carlos feeding me balls.
Seriously, how old are you? Did you ever watch Ronaldo play? The man was NOT fed balls and was NOT a "poacher" style striker. He created goals on his own, often from his own half with no assists. The fact that you consider him a "pure #9" just exposed you as someone who has no idea what he is talking about, frankly. That is probably the most incorrect statement in this entire thread.
If anything, Ronaldo Lima's weakness was his shooting/finishing (not that he wasn't a great finisher mind you!, just weaker than his other attributes). His dribbling, power and pace were out of this world.
Just proves my point about the EA Games generation having no clue and just eating up the hype fed by the commercial interests
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But then is it fair to let that cloud an entire career?
I don't know if you're a fan of American sports or maybe even an American, but put Tom Brady on the Jaguars. Does he still have 4 rings? Or Michael Jordan on the Philadelphia 76ers, is he still the greatest? Unfamiliar/inferior teammates obviously puts you at a massive disadvantage regardless of how good you actually are. Yeah, if you overcome that it's a massive bonus but that's exactly what it is... a bonus.
Seriously, how old are you? Did you ever watch Ronaldo play? The man was NOT fed balls and was NOT a "poacher" style striker. He created goals on his own. The fact that you consider him a "pure #9" just exposed you as someone who has no idea what he is talking about, frankly. That is probably the most incorrect statement in this entire thread.
Just proves my point about the EA Games generation having no clue and just eating up the hype fed by the commercial interests
Ronaldo pre 98 was as complete a player you can get. Ronaldo after that become more of a poacher. But I'd argue that 2002 Ronaldo can still win the World Cup while playing with the likes of Kleberson
Top argument. Can't believe the amount of people dismissing International Football just because of a certain player couldn't cut it playing for Argentina. Some easily forgot that on the WC knockout games, Argentina's best player was actually Mascherano all the way to Final.
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Seriously, how old are you? Did you ever watch Ronaldo play? The man was NOT fed balls and was NOT a "poacher" style striker. He created goals on his own, often from his own half with no assists. The fact that you consider him a "pure #9" just exposed you as someone who has no idea what he is talking about, frankly. That is probably the most incorrect statement in this entire thread.
If anything, Ronaldo Lima's weakness was his shooting/finishing (not that he wasn't a great finisher mind you!, just weaker than his other attributes). His dribbling, power and pace were out of this world.
Just proves my point about the EA Games generation having no clue and just eating up the hype fed by the commercial interests
Are you seriously arguing Ronaldo was better than Messi? Wow
Seriously, how old are you? Did you ever watch Ronaldo play? The man was NOT fed balls and was NOT a "poacher" style striker. He created goals on his own, often from his own half with no assists. The fact that you consider him a "pure #9" just exposed you as someone who has no idea what he is talking about, frankly. That is probably the most incorrect statement in this entire thread.
If anything, Ronaldo Lima's weakness was his shooting/finishing (not that he wasn't a great finisher mind you!, just weaker than his other attributes). His dribbling, power and pace were out of this world.
Just proves my point about the EA Games generation having no clue and just eating up the hype fed by the commercial interests
uhm. you brought up 2002 world cup, not Inter Milan Ronaldo.
In 2002, he very much was a box-striker. He was coming off knee surgeries.
oh, and feck you for questioning my love of Ronaldo. He was my favorite player growing up. Before he went to Real Madrid.
I don't entirely agree using World Cup wins as a measurement but seems a lot of modern day fans underate Pele a lot. Personally, I prefer Maradona and Messi having seen both, the latter edges it as GOAT for consistently staying at the top through his career. But my uncle who grew up watching Pele while working in the States and south american continent in his younger days insist to this day Pele is the best and had a lot more to his game than just the World Cup titles and goals record. I don't agree with him but I do accept that most of us haven't seen as much of Pele to judge him fairly.
You make it sound like Messi played with a bunch of league one level players. He still played with good players.
Jordan was the greatest because he produced whatever whenever the team needed him most. If Jordan needed to scored from a freethrow with one sec remaining to tie the game in the NBA game 7 final, he'll do it. The fact that Messi can't score a penalty in the final when his team need him made him look bad
That is precisely the point. The obscene money put into the modern game is the point. It's no coincidence that club football has gotten stronger as more and more money is pumped into it.
To even imply that the notion Messi may be one of the greatest players of all time is somehow misguided is even wider of the mark than Messi's penalty!
At his peak, arguably yes. I would take a 1998 Ronaldo Lima over any Messi any time. What does Messi have over Ronaldo Lima? More individual accolades. Career wise? Hard to say.
Yes, Messi won too many La Ligas and CLs for me to count. It's impressive, clearly one of the greatest of all time. But then Ronaldo Lima won the WC, won multiple leagues, also won every trophy Messi has won at least once. Volume wise, Messi may have the edge (since he has had a longer career) and certainly he has made more money and is more famous due to this modern global football era, but Ronadlo Lima really won everything there is to win and so it's a different type of career, one that personally I would much rather prefer to have than Messi's record.