Messi at the World Cup - No Ronaldo comparisons!

[Empire]

l What are you talking about? Messi was injured and just hovered around the Centre circle, holding on to his hamstring all night long. Xavi got badly outplayed by Scweiny and that is why they were annihilated. PSG were outplaying Barca comfortably at the Camp Nou till a half fit Messi came on and instantly changed the game, taking them to the semi-finals. I think that would suggest Messi was more important than Xavi using your logic.

You miss the point completely.

The point was that there is an argument if you stopped Xavi from controlling the game you could reduce Barcelona's ability even more than if you stopped Messi. And so it's not as simple as to say Messi was the biggest reason for Barcelona's dominance, there is another argument regarding Guardiola's tactics, there are simply too many variables.

 

[coolredwine]

It wasn't long enough back to be a very different time.

Messi's "influence" over his Barcelona team was much greater than Zidane's over the galacticos, not to mention the huge gap in performance levels and consistency.

Along the same lines, Zidane influenced his national team more.

But I think both their respective "influences" correlate more to the quality of teams they were playing in, and I think this influence thing is overrated.

Great players do influence, but they don't wave magic wands that make a team sport an individual one.

Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets.

It's all swings and roundabout anyway. The thing is, for some reason, he didn't look as comfortable in the last few matches as he was in Barcelona. No one can match Messi in the consistency levels he has shown over the last 4-5 years, but then you do have agree that the dynamics changed a lot after the retirement of Zidane and with the emergence of Messi. Scoring at a goal/match was unprecedented back then.

And this Argentina wasn't as bad. They had decent names, if not being world beaters. I found it more to be an unbalanced team relying on individuals rather than playing as a team.

 

[coolredwine]

People are way too harsh on him. He wouldn't have been my pick for the Golden Ball, but it's not as huge an injustice as people call it, if any at all.

I can name 5 players who were better than Messi this World Cup. And the fact that he was invisible in the last 2-3 matches, just strolling around the park. Which makes it baffling.

 

[Empire]

But every forward depends on it's midfield. Without Messi xavi might not have had the player to pass to.

What an odd argument.

The point was there could be another 'biggest' reason for Barcelona's dominance, whether that be Xavi's controlling of a game, Guardiola's tactics or even the combined effect of Messi, Xavi and Iniesta.

It's not as simple as saying Messi was the biggest reason for Barcelona's dominance, that's an even more odd argument, how do you even quantify that?

 

[sammyvine]

I can name 5 players who were better than Messi this World Cup. And the fact that he was invisible in the last 2-3 matches, just strolling around the park. Which makes it baffling.

The golden ball isnt a major award. Get over it. I dont think he should have won it either but like Balu said some are being so harsh like a professional footballer just strolling around.

 

[sammyvine]

The point was there could be another 'biggest' reason for Barcelona's dominance, whether that be Xavi's controlling of a game, Guardiola's tactics or even the combined effect of Messi, Xavi and Iniesta.

It's not as simple as saying Messi was the biggest reason for Barcelona's dominance, that's an even more odd argument, how do you even quantify that?

All players benefit with playing each other. Does it matter who has the better influence?
What is know is Barca were highly successful then and he was amazing at that point.
Xavi and Iniesta didnt make it out the group rounds this world cup. Doesnt make them any less of a player.

 

[Balu]

I can name 5 players who were better than Messi this World Cup. And the fact that he was invisible in the last 2-3 matches, just strolling around the park. Which makes it baffling.

I can't and definitely not one, who was significantly more influential in his team with comparable success. Like I said, he wouldn't have been my pick either, but the outrage about the decision is even more ridiculous than the actual decision in my opinion.

 

[Jaytay]

He didn't deserve the golden ball, FIFA are a disgrace. Messi's only good game was against Nigeria. He scored in two others but he was still underpar, he didn't look happy receiving it, he didn't want the award and probably knew he shouldn't have got it. He doesn't seem right mentally, reminds of Rooney before that big story came out. Maybe a story is about to come about him that is detrimental to him. From last season he has not been the same.

 

[coolredwine]

The golden ball isnt a major award. Get over it. I dont think he should have won it either but like Balu said some are being so harsh like a professional footballer just strolling around.

There is a player who is claiming racism for not being awarded the PFA award, and you are saying the Golden Ball isn't a major award...

 

[Hamadovich86]

Doent deserve the golden ball but he was good for the most part. People forget his flashes of brilliance last night he left Hummels for dead on one occasion. I would still put him in my team of the tournament as he literally carried Argentina on his back.

 

[B20]

Really should have been James to win it.

But Messi is in the runner-ups field that also has Robben and Muller. And below that, Kroos, Neymar, Benzema and Sanchez. And below those, Mascherano, Vlaar, Hummels and Neuer.

If you gloss over him not doing any tracking back at all I think he played a good final. Not great, but I thought he was still the best attacking player on the pitch.

 

[CLARiiON]

Some people just love to hate him. Not exactly unexpected considering it's a United forum.
It's a success for him that he played a WC final despite having a coach like Sabella. He's the official Golden ball winner, live with it.

 

[crappycraperson]

Problem with the golden ball award is that all 4 of his goals came against Nigeria, Bosnia and Iran...
That assist in the Swiss game was the best thing he did in knockouts as well. The new 'chances created' stats is complete bollocks. I would like someone to list out all the chances that have been attributed to a Messi play. The only two clear ones I remember are- Pass to Di Maria against Belgium and that chip-cross to Maxi against Dutch

Generally Messi oddly had a Ronaldo-seque tournament. Scoring for his team against weak opponents, struggling to do so against stronger ones. Generally not influential enough throughout the match but popping up every now then with a good run.

Even in the final, he showed flashes of his best. Should have buried that chance as well.

I think a defender or MF should have gotten the golden ball this time. Germany suffered due to a group of players shinning at different times. Muller, Hummels, Nuer, Shwien, Kroos all had their moment to shine and none of them really stood out over the other.

 

[sammyvine]

Doent deserve the golden ball but he was good for the most part. People forget his flashes of brilliance last night he left Hummels for dead on one occasion. I would still put him in my team of the tournament as he literally carried Argentina on his back.

Expectations are just so high for him and Ronaldo. I remember all the criticism Ronaldo used to get when Madrid went out of the CL.
Messi was dissapointing in the final compared to his normal level but losing in the final against Germany isnt a shameful thing at all. Not many expected Argentina to even make it this far anyway.

 

[sammyvine]

Some people just love to hate him. Not exactly unexpected considering it's a United forum.
It's a success for him that he played a WC final despite having a coach like Sabella. He's the official Golden ball winner, live with it.

I dont think people hate him although some do. I do think people are being harsh in their criticism of him

 

[sammyvine]

Its funny people bring up zidane but fail to mention the quality of international teammates he had. Henry, Vieira and Makelele for starters were all the best in the world at one point in their respective positions

 

[sammyvine]

There is a player who is claiming racism for not being awarded the PFA award, and you are saying the Golden Ball isn't a major award...

Okay

 

[Cereal Killer]

I can't and definitely not one, who was significantly more influential in his team with comparable success. Like I said, he wouldn't have been my pick either, but the outrage about the decision is even more ridiculous than the actual decision in my opinion.

Well said.

 

[EB100]

Some of you guys need to just come out and spell out what exactly it is you are suggesting: that Messi demanded the golden ball at gunpoint? That the voters are all Messis relatives and/or idiots? I mean its fine to say you'd have given it to someone else, but to act like Messi winning it is some sort of gross injustice comes across as just not liking the sight of Messi succeeding. He verifiably carried Argentinas attack all the way to the final. Goals, assists, chances created for Argentinal were almost all Messi... his fellow attackers were all struggling for form. All this despite being given special attention by defences every game. He is without a doubt a worthy winner.

 

[sammyvine]

Some of you guys need to just come out and spell out what exactly it is you are suggesting: that Messi demanded the golden ball at gunpoint? That the voters are all Messis relatives and/or idiots? I mean its fine to say you'd have given it to someone else, but to act like Messi winning it is some sort of gross injustice comes across as just not liking the sight of Messi succeeding. He verifiably carried Argentinas attack all the way to the final. Goals, assists, chances created for Argentinal were almost all Messi... his fellow attackers were all struggling for form. All this despite being given special attention by defences every game. He is without a doubt a worthy winner.

Aguero 0 goals, Higuain 1 goal, Di Maria 1 goals
That says it all about the Argentine attack and funnily enough I picked Aguero to be top scorer before the competition started

 

[crappycraperson]

Its funny people bring up zidane but fail to mention the quality of international teammates he had. Henry, Vieira and Makelele for starters were all the best in the world at one point in their respective positions

Henry was same as likes of Aguero and Higauin in terms of his NT performances. Mascherano provided great support for Messi this tournament.

 

[sammyvine]

Henry was same as likes of Aguero and Higauin in terms of his NT performances. Mascherano provided great support for Messi this tournament.

Henry was far better than those two players in terms of performances for France. He was very good in the 2006 world cup. I have never got the hype with Higuain and he missed that great chance in the first half whilst Aguero was injured and offered nothing. It's an insult to compare Henry with those players.

If a player needs to rely on Masherano for support, then they will come up short, no offence. Vieira, Makelele, Petit > Masherano imo. I don't understand how anyone can disagree with the fact that Zidane played with better international players than Messi and Ronaldo have.
I also forget to mention Ribery was also great in the 2006 world cup. Ribery>Di Maria/Nani

 

[MTR]

The most undeserved golden ball winner. Period.

 

[MTR]

I can name 5 players who were better than Messi this World Cup. And the fact that he was invisible in the last 2-3 matches, just strolling around the park. Which makes it baffling.

I can name at least 15. Let's start with Argentina. Mascherano, Di Maria, Lavezzi.

 

[TheShedEnd]

In 2006 Zidane hardly set the world alight until the final two or three matches. He scored three goals (two pens), got one assist, then got a red card in the final as France finished runner up to Italy. He won the Golden Ball and there wasn't a single person saying he didn't deserve it.

In 2014, Messi has scored four (three of which were match winning) and created another (match winning). He finished runner up to a brilliant Germany side, but overall has most chances created, most interceptions as an attacker, most successful dribbles and most importantly he carried his team to the finals.

There was no stand out performer at the tournament though.

 

[Twentythreeeleven]

It was a privilegde to watch him in a world cup final. His ilk does't come along very often, maybe once every two or three decades. Even at 50%, which he has been this season, he's the best player in the world. Almost every time he touched that ball in the final something happened (execpt the free kick). The mark of the truely great player..

Unfortunately it wasn't to be. I honest believe if Di Maria was fully fit, the Argies would have won by two goals. The space that Germany was leaving on the counter was begging for player like him.

If you look through the history books all the great players had at least one other almost great attacking player around them.

Pele had Garrincha
Best had Charlton
Ronaldo had Rivaldo
Zidane had Henry

Maybe the only execption to this was Maradona, but even he had and in form Valdano (41 goals in 49 games for Real Madrid in the 85/86 season) and regarded at the time as one of the top three strikers in Europe.

Messi had no one. No one stood up. No provided that outlet for him and those who had changes bottled them.

I feel sorry for the kid. He came so close this time. Appointing Maradona in 2010 was a farce. But he stil has 2018 I guess. He will be 30/31. Argentina need to build for that. They need to unearth two or three players who can work with Messi to unlock defences.

It hasn't really worked out for him at international level but at least at club level the stars have alligned...and what he's achieved there will secure his place among the greats.

 

[Mrs Smoker]

He was pretty good. Kudos, lad.

 

[Eboue]

I believe I can sense greatness.

 

[Snake Plissken]

He should hand the golden ball back to the people of the cafe can get on with their lives.

 

[MDFC Manager]

The most undeserved golden ball winner. Period.

This. You might understand giving it to him if there were no better candidates. But there were.

 

[sammyvine]

I can name at least 15. Let's start with Argentina. Mascherano, Di Maria, Lavezzi.

In what was was Di Maria and Lavezzi better?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

He should hand the golden ball back to the people of the cafe can get on with their lives.

Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets.

It's all swings and roundabout anyway. The thing is, for some reason, he didn't look as comfortable in the last few matches as he was in Barcelona. No one can match Messi in the consistency levels he has shown over the last 4-5 years, but then you do have agree that the dynamics changed a lot after the retirement of Zidane and with the emergence of Messi. Scoring at a goal/match was unprecedented back then.

And this Argentina wasn't as bad. They had decent names, if not being world beaters. I found it more to be an unbalanced team relying on individuals rather than playing as a team.

Yes, the guy who won them most matches had no influence. It was just these three. Messi just took the credit for their work. Excellent sense-making.

Really should have been James to win it.

But Messi is in the runner-ups field that also has Robben and Muller. And below that, Kroos, Neymar, Benzema and Sanchez. And below those, Mascherano, Vlaar, Hummels and Neuer.

If you gloss over him not doing any tracking back at all I think he played a good final. Not great, but I thought he was still the best attacking player on the pitch.

I agree with all of that. And he was the best attacker on the pitch in the final, quite clearly. Do also agree that there wasn't much between a few players. James probably should have gotten it ahead of the other three you mention, due to not having a bad game (I think?).

 

[Empire]

All players benefit with playing each other. Does it matter who has the better influence?
What is know is Barca were highly successful then and he was amazing at that point.
Xavi and Iniesta didnt make it out the group rounds this world cup. Doesnt make them any less of a player.

It matters because a poster stated he was the biggest reason for their dominance and I replied stating there are arguments for other bigger reasons such a xaviesta or Pep.

The point I was making was that we cannot quantify what Barcelona's biggest influence was therefore to say it is Messi is wrong, this is a valid point. It was a great team, he was great amongst many others in that team.

Xavi is 34 now, his understandable decline has coincided with a less dominant Barcelona and Spain, further showing how vital he is to any team.

I'm not even sure why you replied to me, if you read the post I responded to you would see somebody stating Messi to be the biggest influence and then myself stating other influences could be stated as the biggest (and thus implying we cannot say Messi was the biggest for definite).

You've basically replied suggesting I'm trying to quantify what Barcelona's biggest influence was despite my very point being this cannot be quantified.

 

[Oneunited26]

You miss the point completely.

The point was that there is an argument if you stopped Xavi from controlling the game you could reduce Barcelona's ability even more than if you stopped Messi. And so it's not as simple as to say Messi was the biggest reason for Barcelona's dominance, there is another argument regarding Guardiola's tactics, there are simply too many variables.

To be fair to Messi, in Messi's prime he was up against the golden era of Spanish and German football, great players who never win the world cup are still seen has some of the greatest, and Messi's achievements should not be tainted, when certain era's happen that even a great like Messi could not overpower the great teams Spain and Germany have built.

With all the glory pele receives because he has won a world cup, he was part of a golden generation of Brazilian football. If messi had the standard of that team pele or zidane played in with argentina, messi would also lift that world cup. It is not really if a player was that great, its the team he has got around him.

In a world cup the team wins the world cup not the player, and many expected messi to turn up in Brazil score 8 to 10 goals in a world cup tournament and lift it, that does not work in international football has ronaldo as found out, its about the team not the individuals. Many call maradona a great, he still had a bit of luck against England with that hand ball. But for people to expect messi to destroy one of the most well oiled machines in Germany, have been in fantasy land for way to long.

To be fair to Argentina, Germany's semi final victory over Brazil was a huge boost in their physical preparation, they got to the final within 25 minutes and they played a day earlier. You look at Argentina, they had to slog it out hammer and tongs for 130 minutes with Holland and play a penalty shoot out, and they played a day later. So for Argentina, it was physically and mentally exhausting. so Germany did have that bit of luck you need it to win it.

On the other hand, this is perhaps Germany's greatest world cup victory, their group and knock out fixtures was pretty impressive, and they won it in south America in that heat wave which is huge for a European team

Germany's scalps
Portugal
Ghana
US
Algeria
France
Brazil
Argentina

So not only was their road pretty tricky, they beat the 2 south american powerhouses in the semi's and the final in south america. They made history by destroying the host nations Brazil, in Brazil's backyard 7 1, which will be remembered forever.

So while the German's had the luck on their side with how they had dismantled the Brazilians within 25 minutes in Rio, and had a days rest while Argentina played a day later for 130 minutes plus penalty's, this is still one of the most satisfying world cup victory's in world cup history for Germany, or for any other team who did this.

 

[crappycraperson]

Henry was far better than those two players in terms of performances for France. He was very good in the 2006 world cup. I have never got the hype with Higuain and he missed that great chance in the first half whilst Aguero was injured and offered nothing. It's an insult to compare Henry with those players.

If a player needs to rely on Masherano for support, then they will come up short, no offence. Vieira, Makelele, Petit > Masherano imo. I don't understand how anyone can disagree with the fact that Zidane played with better international players than Messi and Ronaldo have.
I also forget to mention Ribery was also great in the 2006 world cup. Ribery>Di Maria/Nani

Nani

I don't there is much difference. French defense looks better on paper but performance wise, it only performed marginally better. The attack was the same. They relied on Zidane to control the match and create chances. Only on odd occasions Ribery, Malouda and Henry popped up to do something just like Di Maria, Higuain have done this time. In the end, both teams scratched their way to the final.

For all the wailing about support, it was in Messi's hands to finish off his chance yesterday which he failed to even put on target. Then less spoken about that FK the better.

 

[skyfall]

All players benefit with playing each other. Does it matter who has the better influence?
What is know is Barca were highly successful then and he was amazing at that point.
Xavi and Iniesta didnt make it out the group rounds this world cup. Doesnt make them any less of a player.

In the period of Barca dominance, at international stage, Spain(effectively a Barca side minus Messi) still won everything while Messi didn't win shit. That alone show who is more important to Barca, Xavi/Iniesta or Messi. And Barca has been declined for 2 years now with Xavi's age a major factor.

 

[crappycraperson]

To be fair to Messi, in Messi's prime he was up against the golden era of Spanish and German football, great players who never win the world cup are still seen has some of the greatest, and Messi's achievements should not be tainted, when certain era's happen that even a great like Messi could not overpower the great teams Spain and Germany have built.

With all the glory pele receives because he has won a world cup, he was part of a golden generation of Brazilian football. If messi had the standard of that team pele or zidane played in with argentina, messi would also lift that world cup, it is not really if a player was that great, its the team he has got around him. Many call maradona a great, he still had a bit of luck against England with that hand ball. But for people to expect messi to destroy one of the most well oiled machines in Germany, have been in fantasy land for way to long.

.

In Maradona era, there were plenty of great teams about. Germany 86 and 90 were arguably better than this german team. You had Platini's France team that won the Euros in 84. Italy were a defensive powerhouse.

Part of the Pele's genius is that he was the cog that made a team work in 1970. Argies had a great attacking talent at their disposal, it is a shame their manager could not assimilate them properly but I also think that a peak Messi would have linked up better with others.

 

[Empire]

To be fair to Messi, in Messi's prime he was up against the golden era of Spanish and German football, great players who never win the world cup are still seen has some of the greatest, and Messi's achievements should not be tainted, when certain era's happen that even a great like Messi could not overpower the great teams Spain and Germany have built.

With all the glory pele receives because he has won a world cup, he was part of a golden generation of Brazilian football. If messi had the standard of that team pele or zidane played in with argentina, messi would also lift that world cup, it is not really if a player was that great, its the team he has got around him. Many call maradona a great, he still had a bit of luck against England with that hand ball. But for people to expect messi to destroy one of the most well oiled machines in Germany, have been in fantasy land for way to long.

To be fair to Argentina, Germany's semi final victory over Brazil was a huge boost in their physical preparation, they got to the final within 25 minutes and they played a day earlier. You look at Argentina, they had to slog it out hammer and tongs for 130 minutes with Holland and play a penalty shoot out, and they played a day later. So for Argentina, it was physically and mentally exhausting. so Germany did have that bit of luck you need it to win it.

On the other hand, this is perhaps Germany's greatest world cup victory, their group and knock out fixtures was pretty impressive, and they won it in south America in that heat wave which is huge for a European team

Germany's scalps
Portugal
Ghana
US
Algeria
France
Brazil
Argentina

So not only was their road pretty tricky, they beat the 2 south american powerhouses in the semi's and the final in south america. They made history by destroying the host nations Brazil, in Brazil's backyard 7 1, which will be remembered forever. So while the German's had the luck on their side with how they had dismantled the Brazilians within 25 minutes in Rio, and had a days rest while Argentina played a day later for 130 minutes plus penalty's, this is one of the most satisfying world cup victory's in world cup history for Germany.

What does this have to do with my suggestion that things are not so simple as to say Messi was the most important influence in Barcelona's domination?

 

[sammyvine]

France didnt win in 2006
Im talking about generally
France's midfield is far better than Argentina's

 

[skyfall]

In 2006 Zidane hardly set the world alight until the final two or three matches. He scored three goals (two pens), got one assist, then got a red card in the final as France finished runner up to Italy. He won the Golden Ball and there wasn't a single person saying he didn't deserve it.

In 2014, Messi has scored four (three of which were match winning) and created another (match winning). He finished runner up to a brilliant Germany side, but overall has most chances created, most interceptions as an attacker, most successful dribbles and most importantly he carried his team to the finals.

There was no stand out performer at the tournament though.

Zidane played badly in a few beginning matches but were brilliant once the KO started. Messi played ok (not exceptional as he didn't do much for the team bar the goals) in the group stage but went invisible from the KO stage. Did absolutely nothing in the semi-final as well as the final. Sorry, no comparison here.

All in all, this is the best WC Messi has ever had for sure but to give him the golden ball is madness. The defenders of Argentina should be given the credit of them going to the final, not Messi.