Messi at the World Cup - No Ronaldo comparisons!

I find it hilarious how people still use the "hasnt won the WC" argument against Messi, and compare to Pele and Maradona in that respect. They play in completely different eras of football. There is no way that any player - even a Maradona or Pele - could carry a mediocre team to winning the world cup, in my opinion. The game has changed and evolved, the matches are far harder for the bigger teams.

Additionally - Messi, rightly or wrongly, won player of the tournament. With that in mind, how can anyone criticise him for his team not winnning the competition, if he was deemed to be the best player on an individual basis? Makes no sense to me. Effectively means that any player who doesnt happen to play for one of the very best international teams will ever be comparable to the old time greats.
 
Does anyone think Tevez deserved to go to the world cup. I think he would have been great in a game like this?
 
Theon said:
There's no need for people to speak more simply because I don't really think it's too difficult a concept to grasp. If someone said that Messi had a poor World Cup it's pretty clear that they're saying this relative to Messi's usual standard.

I don't think the standard expected was unrealistic at all. Messi has clearly played far better than this. Hoping the best player in the world will be the best player at the World Cup isn't unrealistic. No one was expecting him to play like Maradona in '86, but I think most did expect him to be better than the likes of Robben and James.
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If his performances over the last few years for Argentina have proved anything it's that being the best player in the world is not enough. Argentina require him to be better than that and it seems he is not able. The expectation than he can propel them to the World Cup while playing fantastically, scoring, creating all with inadequate midfield and forward support is unrealistic.

In the case of using his expectations against him, Messi's standards have been so unbelievably high that any match where he is not by far the stand out player would validate reasonable criticism against him.
 
Walrus said:
I find it hilarious how people still use the "hasnt won the WC" argument against Messi, and compare to Pele and Maradona in that respect. They play in completely different eras of football. There is no way that any player - even a Maradona or Pele - could carry a mediocre team to winning the world cup, in my opinion. The game has changed and evolved, the matches are far harder for the bigger teams.

Additionally - Messi, rightly or wrongly, won player of the tournament. With that in mind, how can anyone criticise him for his team not winnning the competition, if he was deemed to be the best player on an individual basis? Makes no sense to me. Effectively means that any player who doesnt happen to play for one of the very best international teams will ever be comparable to the old time greats.
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Its sad

Ronaldo and Messi are all time great i don't care what anybody says. Maybe not top two over Pele and Maradonna but deffo top 10.
 
Walrus said:
I find it hilarious how people still use the "hasnt won the WC" argument against Messi, and compare to Pele and Maradona in that respect. They play in completely different eras of football. There is no way that any player - even a Maradona or Pele - could carry a mediocre team to winning the world cup, in my opinion. The game has changed and evolved, the matches are far harder for the bigger teams.

Additionally - Messi, rightly or wrongly, won player of the tournament. With that in mind, how can anyone criticise him for his team not winnning the competition, if he was deemed to be the best player on an individual basis? Makes no sense to me. Effectively means that any player who doesnt happen to play for one of the very best international teams will ever be comparable to the old time greats.
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I agree, it's ridicilous how people have this sort of agenda against a player and will even talk rubbish just so they can say something bad about him.
 
Will he ever get some rest? Next summer is Copa America time.
Since Barcelona will never give him 2-3 months off, Messi should just do a Michael Jordan and temporarily retire from football. He's obviously not fit enough. He still has the desire, but sometimes that is not enough.
 
Walrus said:
I find it hilarious how people still use the "hasnt won the WC" argument against Messi, and compare to Pele and Maradona in that respect. They play in completely different eras of football. There is no way that any player - even a Maradona or Pele - could carry a mediocre team to winning the world cup, in my opinion. The game has changed and evolved, the matches are far harder for the bigger teams.

Additionally - Messi, rightly or wrongly, won player of the tournament. With that in mind, how can anyone criticise him for his team not winnning the competition, if he was deemed to be the best player on an individual basis? Makes no sense to me. Effectively means that any player who doesnt happen to play for one of the very best international teams will ever be comparable to the old time greats.
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Anyone who has watched this tournament knows he was not the best player in the tournament so it's a non argument really.
 
Still have no idea how the guy managed to come away with player of the tournament. I mean he had a good tournament and that, but he was nowhere near his best and failed to deliver in their two most important games. Basically won that award because he's Messi. Any other player who played like that wouldn't have gotten it.

He showed glimpses of being dangerous in the early stages tonight when he got on the ball and he looked sharp, but he wasn't involved enough and had a poor game overall.
 
sammyvine said:
Does anyone think Tevez deserved to go to the world cup. I think he would have been great in a game like this?
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even Di Santo was considered before him, don't know why but it was something about the harmony in team...
 
VorZakone said:
Have you watched Di Stefano play, or Cruyff? Or Pele?
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Yes, and I have read lots of articles and reports and have seen clips of games I could not watch. Di Stefano was obviously the player I saw the least of but I have seen enough and read enough and have seen enough interviews with players and respectable journalists to have a more than good enough opinion on him as well as the others.
 
Vitro said:
If his performances over the last few years for Argentina have proved anything it's that being the best player in the world is not enough. Argentina require him to be better than that and it seems he is not able. The expectation than he can propel them to the World Cup while playing fantastically, scoring, creating all with inadequate midfield and forward support is unrealistic.

In the case of using his expectations against him, Messi's standards have been so unbelievably high that any match where he is not by far the stand out player would validate reasonable criticism against him.
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i think Enrique will be a great manager for him especially regarding his fitness levels etc. He is said to be great with conditioning.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Hehe, they did. And with injuries and/or very underwhelming play from some of their presumably best players.
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I don't think anyone can argue that this has been one of the most entertaining world cups in recent times, and much needed after 2010. But there's also been a distinct lack of quality. Germany were the only real outstanding team at the top level, the other big hitters were mediocre teams propped up by a few quality players. It's that fact which made it exciting because the minnows who had effective teams with good players such as chile and costs rica and Colombia (still some good players but very good teams in terms of working together) could really have a go at the big guns.
 
sammyvine said:
Does anyone think Tevez deserved to go to the world cup. I think he would have been great in a game like this?
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Easy to question it with hindsight but I think Sabella made the right choice. Argentina's strikers were really poor overall but Tévez has had stinkers that ended up costing his country in the past too so he wasn't exactly a sure thing.
 
Mali_Zeus said:
We're going in circles. I said Messi had a better club career. I didnt say Pele didnt have a great one, or 'absolutely fantastic'.
Sure Brasilian game was maybe good but the fact Santos could beat European sides every once in a while doesnt mean Brasilian league was better than the best European ones.
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It was a silly thing to bring up. Who cares if he didn't play in Europe, the footballing landscape was completely different back then. And the evidence does seem to indicate that the Brazilian league was as good as the European ones. Between 1958-1970 Brazil won three out of four World Cups with players who didn't play in Europe.
 
Bob Loblaw said:
Easy to question it with hindsight but I think Sabella made the right choice. Argentina's strikers were really poor overall but Tévez has had stinkers that ended up costing his country in the past too so he wasn't exactly a sure thing.
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They were not fit imo

Aguero and Di Maria most certainly. Not making excuses because the germans were great winners but the argentines were very unlucky that their best three players all had injury problems (well maybe two best players)
 
Theon said:
It was a silly thing to bring up. Who cares if he didn't play in Europe, the footballing landscape was completely different back then. And the evidence does seem to indicate that the Brazilian league was as good as the European ones. Between 1958-1970 Brazil won three out of four World Cups with players who didn't play in Europe.
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Messi will be just fine mate:lol:
Even if he doesnt win a world cup which he probably won't he has had a pretty decent career. I am sure many players would love to swap their careers with his.

I guess this is what happens when you are a superstar. You take all the pluadits but all the blame. Can't have it both ways i suppose
 
Raul Madrid said:
Yes, and I have read lots of articles and reports and have seen clips of games I could not watch. Di Stefano was obviously the player I saw the least of but I have seen enough and read enough and have seen enough interviews with players and respectable journalists to have a more than good enough opinion on him as well as the others.
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I wish I could have watched Pele in his prime. I read some insane quotes about him that made me just so curious about how good he was. YouTube clips aren't enough.
 
Theon said:
It was a silly thing to bring up. Who cares if he didn't play in Europe, the footballing landscape was completely different back then. And the evidence does seem to indicate that the Brazilian league was as good as the European ones. Between 1958-1970 Brazil won three out of four World Cups with players who didn't play in Europe.
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Indeed - people forget in that era the best players from South America largely stayed there. If you take out Messi Lavezzi Suarez Oscar Willian Thiago Silva etc etc etc (they were the first few who came to mind!) and clumped them all in their domestic leagues, they would be extremely strong. @Mali_Zeus
 
Not certain Messi deserved to win player of the tournament, its clear that without him Argentina would never have got this far though. He saved his best til last and ran at people with an intensity and an effort that he seemed to summon from his last reserves. No doubt in my mind looking at Messi that he has never really recovered from his injuries last year. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the last we see of him for months. Clearly he made the conscious decision to leave everything on the pitch come the final whistle. He did, at least he gave all his body is capable of right now, but it just wasn't enough. Messi can go home with his head held high though. Unlike players like Higuain, who came with big names and big price tags, Messi did it when it mattered. Amazing that no scrutiny has fallen on his team mates given many have £30 million + price tags. You'd expect less reliance on their number 10 from a squad that's supposedly overloaded with expensive attacking talent...
 
VorZakone said:
I wish I could have watched Pele in his prime. I read some insane quotes about him that made me just so curious about how good he was. YouTube clips aren't enough.
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There are DVDs available of past world cups and there are also full matches that can be watched on youtube and other sites too.
 
Walrus said:
I find it hilarious how people still use the "hasnt won the WC" argument against Messi, and compare to Pele and Maradona in that respect. They play in completely different eras of football. There is no way that any player - even a Maradona or Pele - could carry a mediocre team to winning the world cup, in my opinion. The game has changed and evolved, the matches are far harder for the bigger teams.

Additionally - Messi, rightly or wrongly, won player of the tournament. With that in mind, how can anyone criticise him for his team not winnning the competition, if he was deemed to be the best player on an individual basis? Makes no sense to me. Effectively means that any player who doesnt happen to play for one of the very best international teams will ever be comparable to the old time greats.
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It's debatable whether this Argentina side is a mediocre one - compared to what? They reached the final and gave the Germans a proper fight.

Anyway, this isn't about Messi versus Maradona or Pele - only mugs are involved in that. It's about the obvious fact that Messi didn't look quite on form. Nobody who has seen him in his pomp could doubt that. He wasn't on song - and that was disappointing. It's as simple as that.
 
Should Barca consider selling him? He looks burned out, and their new coach might want to avoiding any potential conflict between Messi and Suarez? Also, Neymar could finally enjoy the freedom and get to roam around like he does for Brazil. We'd get the best Neymar.

Neymar - Suarez - Deulofeu/Rafinha looks very good.
 
rpitroda said:
Can't wait until ridiculous posters like you can return to where you belong.
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Mali_Zeus said:
Go home, you're drunk. You numbered 6 or 7 Argentina players who were better than Messi. Biglia, Demichelis. Rojo, Romero.
As I said, go home you're drunk..
This WC thread has had its fare share of ridiculous posters and you're out there at the top.
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Congrats, you guys just made it to my "not worth a future reply" list....;)
 
Russell said:
Should Barca consider selling him? He looks burned out, and their new coach might want to avoiding any potential conflict between Messi and Suarez? Also, Neymar could finally enjoy the freedom and get to roam around like he does for Brazil. We'd get the best Neymar.

Neymar - Suarez - Deulofeu/Rafinha looks very good.
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Any potential line-up looks (and is) better with Messi in it. So...no.
 
The irony of all the BBC pundits over criticising Messi and downplaying him yet not one of them have a world cup trophy to their name.

Its funny how Seedorf and Linekar were the 'neutral' ones when taking about Messi and Argentina and both of them were the best players when they played out of the lot.
 
Russell said:
Will he ever get some rest? Next summer is Copa America time.
Since Barcelona will never give him 2-3 months off, Messi should just do a Michael Jordan and temporarily retire from football. He's obviously not fit enough. He still has the desire, but sometimes that is not enough.
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He should play in the NFL:lol:
 
Russell said:
Should Barca consider selling him? He looks burned out, and their new coach might want to avoiding any potential conflict between Messi and Suarez? Also, Neymar could finally enjoy the freedom and get to roam around like he does for Brazil. We'd get the best Neymar.

Neymar - Suarez - Deulofeu/Rafinha looks very good.
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Sign him up, Woody. Send him on holiday for the first half of the season - then unleash him after Christmas.
 
Russell said:
Should Barca consider selling him? He looks burned out, and their new coach might want to avoiding any potential conflict between Messi and Suarez? Also, Neymar could finally enjoy the freedom and get to roam around like he does for Brazil. We'd get the best Neymar.

Neymar - Suarez - Deulofeu/Rafinha looks very good.
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Do you honestly think Barcelona would be better without Messi? I mean come on, seriously? Regardless of whether those players would benefit without Messi, surely you wouldn't sell the worlds best player to get the best out of other players. Surely it's the other way round? That's the most nicest way of putting that reply. Because honestly your post is just outrageous.
 
#07 said:
Not certain Messi deserved to win player of the tournament, its clear that without him Argentina would never have got this far though. He saved his best til last and ran at people with an intensity and an effort that he seemed to summon from his last reserves. No doubt in my mind looking at Messi that he has never really recovered from his injuries last year. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the last we see of him for months. Clearly he made the conscious decision to leave everything on the pitch come the final whistle. He did, at least he gave all his body is capable of right now, but it just wasn't enough. Messi can go home with his head held high though. Unlike players like Higuain, who came with big names and big price tags, Messi did it when it mattered. Amazing that no scrutiny has fallen on his team mates given many have £30 million + price tags. You'd expect less reliance on their number 10 from a squad that's supposedly overloaded with expensive attacking talent...
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When you are Messi or Ronaldo, when you lose you are labelled a fraud, overrated and not elite.

Maradonna and Pele are lucky the media wasn't what it was when they were playing. Mardaonna not winning a CL trophy and Pele playing in 'weaker leagues' would have been the hot topics of today
 
Bob Loblaw said:
Any potential line-up looks (and is) better with Messi in it. So...no.
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How do you know? If Barca can maximize the strengths of both Suarez and Neymar it very well may outweigh the benefits of Messi playing. Barca have become predictable under Messi in recent years. They could change that.
 
Russell said:
Will he ever get some rest? Next summer is Copa America time.
Since Barcelona will never give him 2-3 months off, Messi should just do a Michael Jordan and temporarily retire from football. He's obviously not fit enough. He still has the desire, but sometimes that is not enough.
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His fitness does definitely need managing. Ronaldo can probably get away with it because he's extremely fit, I don't think Messi compares on fitness. Messi plays every game 90 minutes if he is fit. Eventually it catches up to you. I think certainly Barcelona will be more careful with him.p this time round.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Sign him up, Woody. Send him on holiday for the first half of the season - then unleash him after Christmas.
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I'd sell my right testicle to have the pre injury Messi play for us. Will be interesting to see how his career pans out from here though. Clearly not the same player, but has he the personality to change and adapt.
 
sammyvine said:
The irony of all the BBC pundits over criticising Messi and downplaying him yet not one of them have a world cup trophy to their name.

Its funny how Seedorf and Linekar were the 'neutral' ones when taking about Messi and Argentina and both of them were the best players when they played out of the lot.
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Ferdinand, Shearer and Hansen could probably easily claim parity with Linekar and Seedorf in terms of ability(relatively speaking). And none of the pundits have a World Cup to their name, so that's a weird line of critique to take.
 
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Russell said:
How do you know? If Barca can maximize the strengths of both Suarez and Neymar it very well may outweigh the benefits of Messi playing. Barca have become predictable under Messi in recent years. They could change that.
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The strengths of Suárez and Neymar aren't as good as Messi.

Last season Martino spoke about using Messi as a "decoy" and designed his tactics to get the best out of their direct players, look how that turned out. Build around Messi, no matter who the casualties are.
 
Cloudface said:
Ferdinand, Shearer and Hansen could probably easily claim parity with Linekar and Seedorf in terms of ability(relatively speaking). And none of the pundits have a World Cup to their name, so that's a weird line of critique to take.
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What i am saying is the way they were talking about Messi you would have thought they were World Cup winners or the world cup trophy is an easy thing to win.
 
Russell said:
Should Barca consider selling him? He looks burned out, and their new coach might want to avoiding any potential conflict between Messi and Suarez? .
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if anything, Suarez and Neymar should help him with some burden on his back. I've always thought it was much healthier to have Benzema, Higuain and Ronaldo all scoring 30+ (when they won the title) than having one player (Messi) scoring 50 and second best scorer on only 10 goals...
 
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