Messi at the World Cup - No Ronaldo comparisons!

Snake Plissken said:
indeed



You could say that about any team ever then. To suggest there were 'equally' important players when he scores and creates so many of their goals is a stretch.
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I didn't say equally important players did I?
Barca had a great team, absolutely dominate every opponent they played against. One great player alone couldn't achieve that, only an extraordinary team can, this alone qualify at least as an equally important factor as much as having the best player of the world in the team.
 
Duafc said:
Genuinely think Mascherano did as much for Argentina in this WC as Messi.

Carry on being facetious though.
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Masherano and the Argentine defence really came to the fore after the Switzerland match but I doubt they would have even reached the final without Messi's goals and assists prior to that. I guess somewhere in the group stages, Sabella probably realised his strikerforce was shit despite all the big names.
 
Theon said:
His tournament was poor relative to the expectation and he shouldn't have won the Golden Ball.

I don't think anyone has said that he has actually been playing badly, in fact even those who are criticising him are saying he was around the 3rd-6th best player which doesn't suggest he played badly to me. It's just poor compared to what he's capable off and what people hoped for.
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For me this tournament doesn't really detract from Messi the player. He isn't up there with Maradona yet but he has time on his side still. Messi playing badly just shows that even the best player in the world needs a good team behind him. But then, any rational fan would know that without thinking.
 
Very silly decision to give him the Golden Whatever it's called. Presumably being in the stadium was very high on the list of criteria.
 
AmarUnderscoreX2 said:
I don't see how that has anything to do with Messi's importance for Barca. Btw, I said it myself before that Messi had average tournament.

And while you're at it, would you say that Palacio was equally important to this team as Mascherano?
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Nope, he was borderline detrimental.
 
AmarUnderscoreX2 said:
I don't see how that has anything to do with Messi's importance for Barca. Btw, I said it myself before that Messi had average tournament.

And while you're at it, would you say that Palacio was equally important to this team as Mascherano?
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Average by his standards? it was the best he has produced interna
TheShedEnd said:
I think it's absoloutely unfair to base a players greatness on a three week tournament that comes around every four years. The emphasis on 'team sport' applies so much more to these competitions too.

At International level, Maradona and Pele excelled more than Messi (as it stands), however at club level, Messi has shone in arguably the greatest club side of all time, smashing records left right and centre.

People will use the World Cup as a stick to beat Messi with, but that can easily be turned around as neither of those two had a club career like Messi, nor did they dominate the individual awards either.
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I'm sorry but this whole de-valuing the world cup thing doesn't wash with me. It is an intense tournament, the pressure matches no other because you know you aren't going to get another chance. Comes along every 4 years, the passion of the fans is unmatched.

Anyone who has played football knows when you play a league game, it doesn't have the same intensity as a cup game.. the pressure is just different, space feels alot more restricted etc.. thats even at lower level, imagine the world cup. It is what makes Gotzes goal pretty damn special. Plenty of greats have won multiple european cups and league titles, very few have dominated world cups let alone finals.. takes a very mentally strong, sublime talent. Even Maradona didn't score in a final.
 
rpitroda said:
I agree with this on the whole. Messi being the key or not is largely irrelevant, as ultimately the team was one of the best ever and the tactics and squad as a whole was the overriding factor to their success.

However, it's not unreasonable to suggest Messi was the key player.
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It is if the success of the side lives and dies by another players decline. It's no coincidence that two of the greatest ships of all time crashed and burned at the exact same time.

If Barcelona continued, unabashed, without Xavi then this key player business would hold all the weight in the world, but they didn't. They got humiliated, in much the same way as Xavi's NT did to bring their time as the pinnacle of the game to an end.
Agent Red said:
Sorry if already mentioned but BBC news seem to be reporting that he threw up on the pitch in the first half. Implies it's an ongoing problem he's seeing doctors about rather than something that's plagued him just recently.
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It's pretty obvious that something serious is going on with him because a player of his age doesn't simply stop running and moving like he used to just a couple of years ago otherwise.

The Messi we're seeing these days can barely last 60 minutes at maximum output. That's alarming. He's 27, not 37.

People seem to go out of their way to call him lazy or his effort levels a disgrace but it's blatantly obvious something isn't right with him and he has no choice but to conserve energy to only a few bursts a game if he wants to last the full 90.

Really hope they can find out what's wrong with him and treat it.
 
I haven't read this thread at all today. But I am assuming it can be summed up in three words. "Fight, Fight, Fight".
 
Out of curiosity, if he wins the Copa America next year, does anyones view of him change? After all, this is about doing it for Argentina and not just the World Cup is it not?
 
RedRonaldo said:
You must be too young to watch football during the 80's. Maradona wasn't all about having a good few performances in a tournament....
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I know - it's comments like his that constantly mar these debates, which are pointless enough to begin with. The lack of respect for the past is as infuriating as the dismissal of the present. And if I'm honest I'd say the former is more prevalent. People who watched both Messi and Maradona - and who know a little bit about the history of football - are more likely to say there isn't much between them than anything else.
 
TheShedEnd said:
Out of curiosity, if he wins the Copa America next year, does anyones view of him change? After all, this is about doing it for Argentina and not just the World Cup is it not?
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Copa America cannot compare to the world cup, so not it doesn't count. It is not as prestigious as the European Championships, let alone the world cup.
 
Ole's_toe_poke said:
I haven't read this thread at all today. But I am assuming it can be summed up in three words. "Fight, Fight, Fight".
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Haha. You've got the two extremes of people who say Messi is shit vs those who think he's better than Maradona.

The reasonable ones are debating his influence at Barca.
 
TheShedEnd said:
People will use the World Cup as a stick to beat Messi with, but that can easily be turned around as neither of those two had a club career like Messi, nor did they dominate the individual awards either.
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Pele had an incredibly successful club career. Not sure what you're on about there.

Which individual awards were they missing out on?
 
Mali_Zeus said:
Omg he's coughing!

Story out of nothing..
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Wouldn't really say it's only coughing. It's been happening quite often over the past season yet doctors can't diagnose him (or at least nothing has been publically disclosed).
 
Theon said:
His tournament was poor relative to the expectation and he shouldn't have won the Golden Ball.

I don't think anyone has said that he has actually been playing badly, in fact even those who are criticising him are saying he was around the 3rd-6th best player which doesn't suggest he played badly to me. It's just poor compared to what he's capable off and what people hoped for.
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You keep stressing on the "expectation on Messi" part. No one cares gives a feck about that. Forget his name and look at his performances - there's no way he was the best player in the tournament. It's just that a few players were better than him that needs stressing.

By the way, the "golden ball winner of 2018 and 2022" bit made me chuckle. :)
 
Theon said:
His tournament was poor relative to the expectation and he shouldn't have won the Golden Ball.

I don't think anyone has said that he has actually been playing badly, in fact even those who are criticising him are saying he was around the 3rd-6th best player which doesn't suggest he played badly to me. It's just poor compared to what he's capable off and what people hoped for.
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His performance was always going to be poor in comparison to the expectation because the expectation was unrealistic. He shouldn't have won the golden ball but people stating he had a poor tournament in light of ridiculous expectations should perhaps speak a little more simply and critique his performance according to his actual performance.
 
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Mali_Zeus said:
I dont know, he isnt the same, that's for sure.
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Yeah it's hard to say anything definitive when we only have what we see on the pitch to go on. He still performs well most of the time but physically he doesn't look right and these retching incidents don't really help...
 
Messi is slowly regressing. 2 years ago he would have scored at least once from the opportunities he had even though they were not clear cut.
 
all those legends are missing something, it seems... it all depends what you value more. I think that should make an interesting thread.
 
Disappointed with Messi tonight and in the knock-out rounds. I really wanted him to do well as I admire him immensely as a footballer - I've never been as mesmerised watching anyone else, the way he dribbles, moves, passes, shoots etc, all so much better than anyone else I've ever saw. Every time he got the ball (annoyingly so few times tonight) he still had that dangerously good movement and technique that sees him skip past players.

I just don't understand why he spent so much time walking around the pitch... was it tiredness, what he was told to do it? Even if he was exhausted, it was the biggest game of his career, one game that would greatly determine his rank amongst the all time greats for many people... yet he just seemed like he didn't have the energy, not even from the adrenaline of the occasion.
 
Mali_Zeus said:
It's not criticism, it's a fact, Messi's club achievements are superior to both Maradona's and Pele's.
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and yet Pele wiped the floor with them internationally, so I don't think playing in Europe was the be all and end all those days. Its like the Messi v Stoke argument.
 
Mali_Zeus said:
It's not criticism, it's a fact, Messi's club achievements are superior to both Maradona's and Pele's.
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:lol: I know it's a fact - I'm asking you why you're bringing it up.

Pele had a fantastic club career and a fantastic international career. This is also a fact. Not playing in Europe is completely irrelevant, the Brazilian league was excellent back then and his Santos side regularly beat the great European teams such as Eusebio's Benfica.
 
Theon said:
:lol: I know it's a fact - I'm asking you why you're bringing it up.

Pele had a fantastic club career and a fantastic international career. This is also a fact. Not playing in Europe is completely irrelevant, the Brazilian league was excellent back then and his Santos side regularly beat the great European teams such as Eusebio's Benfica.
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As I said Messi had better club career. I brought it up cause you said Pele had a great club career too.
 
Raees said:
Copa America cannot compare to the world cup, so not it doesn't count. It is not as prestigious as the European Championships, let alone the world cup.
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It's the South American version of the European Championships, so yes, it's just as prestigious. It's also a competition Argentina haven't won for 20+ years, and one Maradona never achieved.

Regardless, this seems to boil down to Messi actually winning a World Cup rather than performing for Argentina. the goal posts keep changing with him. Massive hypocrisy going on.
 
Raees said:
and yet Pele wiped the floor with them internationally, so I don't think playing in Europe was the be all and end all those days. Its like the Messi v Stoke argument.
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Messi vs Pele and Maradona comparisons are pointless if you ask me. Different age, different kind of football, different opponents. What we can all agree on is all 3 were great players and Messi still is.

Even if Messi won the WC people who dont like him would find something else to point out to prove he's not as good as Maradona. They would say he was poor in the torunament or that he must win another WC.
 
TheShedEnd said:
It's the South American version of the European Championships, so yes, it's just as prestigious. It's also a competition Argentina haven't won for 20+ years, and one Maradona never achieved.

Regardless, this seems to boil down to Messi actually winning a World Cup rather than performing for Argentina. the goal posts keep changing with him. Massive hypocrisy going on.
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It wasn't organised particularly well if you look throughout its history and wasn't taken too seriously in the past. It may gain in prestige, but in terms of difficulty level to win it.. it ranks below the European Championship. Regardless, none of them compare to the world cup.. no one is taken seriously as an international great due to excelling in the Copa America..
 
how the utter feck did he win the golden ball? was it decided by his dad or something? other than a few moments of magic Messi was pretty poor for Argentina all tournament, no way in hell is he the best player at it, not by a long long way.
 
Mali_Zeus said:
Messi vs Pele and Maradona comparisons are pointless if you ask me. Different age, different kind of football, different opponents. What we can all agree on is all 3 were great players and Messi still is.

Even if Messi won the WC people who dont like him would find something else to point out to prove he's not as good as Maradona. They would say he was poor in the torunament or that he must win another WC.
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It would have been he needs to take Stoke City to the Premier League title.

As said above, the goal posts keep changing when it comes to judging his greatness.
 
Kinda depressing seeing him play tonight/the last while. Still great in bursts but nothing compared to how he was a few years back. Hopefully he can get back to his dominant best with Barca next season.

And comparing Messi, Maradona and Pele is so tedious and boring. The three of them are all time greats, best three ever probably. You could argue here til the Premiership starts and you'd still be no closer to a definitive answer. I'm just happy I get to see one of the best players ever play football and I really hope he can get back to his best.
 
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