Messi at the World Cup - No Ronaldo comparisons!

T.banty10 said:
And Ronaldo doesn't have a good technique huh?
Also, Messi's techniques is overrated. His touch and control is never as golden as the likes of Maradonna, Zidane nor Iniesta.
Messi is able to control the ball in tight areas better than Ronaldo because of his low centre of gravity and quick burst of pace. It's not a suprise he's been losing possession cheaply of late due to losing a yard of his pace after series of injuries. I would even wager Ronaldo's first touch is better than Messi when taking the ball at full speed because he doesn't take many touches before getting it under control unlike Messi does, whereas Messi is better at retaining the ball in tight areas due to his low centre of gravity.
That said, neither Messi nor Ronaldo excite me the way Ronaldinho, Iniesta, Zidane does.
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Ronaldinho is a footballing god. :drool:
Messi and Ronaldo are mere mortals.
 
T.banty10 said:
I would even wager Ronaldo's first touch is better than Messi when taking the ball at full speed because he doesn't take many touches before getting it under control unlike Messi does, whereas Messi is better at retaining the ball in tight areas due to his low centre of gravity.
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This is probably the stupidest thing I've read in last few years.

Probably best player ever at controlling ball and dribbling at full speed is overrated when it comes to technique.

What's the point of polluting thread with this kind of drivel?
 
Stocar said:
This is probably the stupidest thing I've read in last few years.

Probably best player ever at controlling ball and dribbling at full speed is overrated when it comes to technique.

What's the point of polluting thread with this kind of drivel?
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As you can see, I wasn't talking about dribbling.
I was talking of getting the ball at full speed and controlling with one touch. You need to see many goals Ronaldo scored through taking a first time shot with the ball passed to him at full speed.
 
T.banty10 said:
As you can see, I wasn't talking about dribbling.
I was talking of getting the ball at full speed and controlling with one touch. You need to see many goals Ronaldo scored through taking a first time shot with the ball passed to him at full speed.
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Yes, Ronaldo gets more balls at full speed in open space, due to his style of play and system he plays in. Ronaldo is brilliant at it indeed, but that's just one segment of overall technical ability, and definitely not most important one.

So what's your point, that Messi couldn't control the ball as well in same type of situtations due to his lacking technique? :lol:

Just stop.
 
T.banty10 said:
And Ronaldo doesn't have a good technique huh?
Also, Messi's techniques is overrated. His touch and control is never as golden as the likes of Maradonna, Zidane nor Iniesta.
Messi is able to control the ball in tight areas better than Ronaldo because of his low centre of gravity and quick burst of pace. It's not a suprise he's been losing possession cheaply of late due to losing a yard of his pace after series of injuries. I would even wager Ronaldo's first touch is better than Messi when taking the ball at full speed because he doesn't take many touches before getting it under control unlike Messi does, whereas Messi is better at retaining the ball in tight areas due to his low centre of gravity.
That said, neither Messi nor Ronaldo excite me the way Ronaldinho, Iniesta, Zidane does.
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Wow:lol:
 
Stocar said:
Yes, Ronaldo gets more balls at full speed in open space, due to his style of play and system he plays in. Ronaldo is brilliant at it indeed, but that's just one segment of overall technical ability, and definitely not most important one.

So what's your point, that Messi couldn't control the ball as well in same type of situtations due to his lacking technique? :lol:

Just stop.
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I have seen Messi taken many touches before getting the ball under control or passed the ball back, if he couldn't.
And I didn't say Messi lack technique. What I said was Ronaldo's first touch is better than Messi but once Messi get it under control, he's unstoppable unlike Ronaldo who can still be stopped in his track due to Messi's low centre of gravity and quick burst.
 
Watz said:
You either are very biased (probably) or you don't understand the game of football. Ronaldo has better pace, is much much better in the air (obviously), has a rocket of a shot BUT about everthing else that matters in football offensively Messi has the edge this includes technique, dribbling, game intelligence, pace with the ball, close control, passing, imagination, finishing (close to goal) and I would even say that Messi is a better freekick taker as well (for those that are closer to goal). I really don't understand how people who watched both guys play throughout their career can come to the conclusion that Ronaldo is on the same level let alone better than Messi. This of course doesn't mean that Ronaldo is far away or that he can't have better games, tournaments or seasons but he's not on the level of Messi.
And please don't throw stats at me because I watch the games and you probably know the saying "There are lies, damm lies and there are statistic". Meaningless and hollow goals just don't impress me.
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Biased for giving my opinion and you're not for drooling over Messi ?
Better free kick taker closer to the goal ? Does it not require a better technique farther away from the goal ? He's a better goal scorer closer to the goal ? Ronaldo is a better goal scorer from any part of the field. Don't throw stats at you ? So this basically means you're forming your own opinions from watching the games ? That's what we're doing also and I prefer Ronaldo's style over Messi's. They are both great players, there's no doubt about that but I love Ronaldo' s aggressive style and he looks much faster on the ball. He's just amazing to watch.
 
T.banty10 said:
What I said is Ronaldo's first touch is better than Messi
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Which is clearly wrong, as it's much easier to quickly stop or disposess Ronaldo when he receives the ball in congested space.

If you aesthetically prefer Ronaldo's first touch showboating and habit of immediately releasing the ball in open space, that's another issue.

Anyway, I give up.
 
T.banty10 said:
I have seen Messi taken many touches before getting the ball under control or passed the ball back, if he couldn't.
And I didn't say Messi lack technique. What I said was Ronaldo's first touch is better than Messi but once Messi get it under control, he's unstoppable unlike Ronaldo who can still be stopped in his track due to Messi's low centre of gravity and quick burst.
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You think Ronaldo>Messi we get it

Please lets not derail the thread
 
Stocar said:
Which is clearly wrong, as it's much easier to quickly stop or disposess Ronaldo when he receives the ball in congested space.

If you aesthetically prefer Ronaldo's showboating at first touch and habit of immediately releasing the ball in open space, that's another issue.

Anyway, I give up.
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I think I made it clear that Messi's ball control in tight area is better than Ronaldo but his first touch isn't better than Ronaldo, especially when the ball is running at full speed.
 
T.banty10 said:
I think I made it clear that Messi's ball control in tight area is better than Ronaldo but his first touch isn't better than Ronaldo, especially when the ball is running at full speed.
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Let me get this straight. Messi is arguably best at immediate control of the ball in the most difficult situations, but when being left free this ability somehow diminishes?

This is brilliant. Please, do continue.
 
Steven Seagull said:
What's Messing been like in the warm up matches, has anybody seen Argentina? I'd love it if he won the World Cup in Brazil, fantastic story
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Still missing that bit of pace with the ball to set him on God mode, but at least no sulking or vomiting so far.
 
Stocar said:
Let me get this straight. Messi is arguably best at immediate control of the ball in the most difficult situations, but when being left free this ability somehow diminishes?

This is brilliant. Please, do continue.
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What happened to where I said when he get it under control, he's unstoppable compared to Ronaldo?
And watch Messi when he's surrounded at the time he receives the ball, it's either he passes it back or loses it but when he's in full control of the ball and then surrounded later, it's at that time he find it easy to manouever his way out.
This is not saying Ronaldo doesn't lose the ball when he's surrounded too but when he's free, he doesn't take many touches on the ball unlike Messi does when he's free.
Ronaldo controls the ball at full speed with just one touch whereas Messi still takes many touches on it. And I'm talking of when they're free.
 
If this is just going to turn into another shit Messi v Ronaldo debate then I'll lock it. The title is about Messi, so discuss him, not Ronaldo.
 
Red_devil_ said:
Biased for giving my opinion and you're not for drooling over Messi ?
Better free kick taker closer to the goal ? Does it not require a better technique farther away from the goal ? He's a better goal scorer closer to the goal ? Ronaldo is a better goal scorer from any part of the field. Don't throw stats at you ? So this basically means you're forming your own opinions from watching the games ? That's what we're doing also and I prefer Ronaldo's style over Messi's. They are both great players, there's no doubt about that but I love Ronaldo' s aggressive style and he looks much faster on the ball. He's just amazing to watch.
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I'm not a United, Real or Barcelona fan neither I'm portugese or argentine. Let's just say that if Messi had played for United instead of Ronaldo and Ronaldo for Barcelona you would be singing a different tune, I'm pretty sure of that (unless you became a United fan because of Ronaldo). And it's OK if you like Ronaldos style better but that doesn't make him a better player.
 
Stocar said:
Still missing that bit of pace with the ball to set him on God mode, but at least no sulking or vomiting so far.
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You sure? I missed the game last night but read he was doing the whole throwing up on the pitch routine again.
 
Red_devil_ said:
Biased for giving my opinion and you're not for drooling over Messi ?
Better free kick taker closer to the goal ? Does it not require a better technique farther away from the goal ? He's a better goal scorer closer to the goal ? Ronaldo is a better goal scorer from any part of the field. Don't throw stats at you ? So this basically means you're forming your own opinions from watching the games ? That's what we're doing also and I prefer Ronaldo's style over Messi's. They are both great players, there's no doubt about that but I love Ronaldo' s aggressive style and he looks much faster on the ball. He's just amazing to watch.
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ronaldo vs messi create a thread please

this is about messi and the world cup
 
Skorenzy said:
First off, I'm not the one viewing those games through a "seperate" lens... you and others who seem to find international football irrelevant when compared to club football are. The point about sample size is a valid one, but let's say Messi particpates in 3 World Cups (discounting 2006 because he wasn't a starter, so let's assume he plays at the next one, when he'll be 30-31) and he fails to do anything of note, could that still be considered an insignificant sample size?

Also, how is focusing on those two games in any way different to all the various "Player x's record in Finals" or "Player y's record against top teams" permutations? Those usually also represent only a fairly limited amount of a player's career.


Secondly, how exactly does the insistence on international football as inferior to club football work in Messi's favour here? If the quality were that significantly lower how can he be that significantly worse than at club level? And that's even beside the main point. It's irrelevant whether it's even true or not (for the record, I do believe that club football, especially at the top, is of higher quality than international football, but just like SAF or Wenger's shop talk about this matter it has to be taken with a grain of salt) -- the point here is that international football represents a different challenge which can help us understand exactly how good/great a player is on an individual level, by taking them outside of their comfort zone (mostly anyway, there are always situations like the current Spain or German NTs where the majority of players are part of the same club set-up, but they usually represent a minority, certainly post-Bosman anyway). Again, players are praised to the heavens when they can perform to similar levels for different clubs, in different leagues/countries; so why are so many excuses being made when they fail to reproduce (or in the case of so many current greats, not even come close to) it on an international level?
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I've not claimed any of the things you're arguing against.

I don't believe in "player X's record in finals" or "player Y's record against top teams" if they're of insignificant samples. I don't view international football through a different lens -- my point is that at the bottom of the day it comes down to football skill and it's irrelevant who or where he is playing, I view it the same way as any other game he plays in, with the knowledge that he is also restricted by the quality of players he is surrounded by and the tactics put out by his manager. With that in mind, I'm not going to judge or alter my opinion of him as a player because I know those two things have hampered him in the past at WCs.

Having said that, if I see enough games to sufficiently observethat Messi's record in 'big games' is not good because of the way he is restricted in playing against top opposition, then I would be of that view -- but that'd be irrespective of who he is playing for.

I've seen him do great things in high pressure matches, so it's not about ability but about something else. Being out of your comfort zone is one thing, playing in ordinary teams with ordinary managers(Diego Maradona is certainly one, and I recall Pekerman being another but don't remember the exact details of why I thought Pekerman was ordinary in 2006), I'm going to take his performances for his national side with a bit of context.
 
You cnuts are at it again...

Anyways, I disagree with the OP's sentiment. It wouldn't be a shame if Messi had a bad tournament. Not for me at least. He's not entitled to World Cup success just because he is Messi. He has to earn it. I don't care either way, I just want a great World Cup.
 
adexkola said:
You cnuts are at it again...

Anyways, I disagree with the OP's sentiment. It wouldn't be a shame if Messi had a bad tournament. Not for me at least. He's not entitled to World Cup success just because he is Messi. He has to earn it. I don't care either way, I just want a great World Cup.
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Well if you want a great world cup you would want the likes of messi to play well since the better players playing well means a better world cup
 
adexkola said:
That's the thing I don't get. I'm not from Argentina. I understand fans from Argentina, neutral fans, or Barcelona fans without a country in the world cup, wanting Messi to shine. But others?
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I'm not a fan of Barcelona or Argentina but I'd love to see Messi dominate this World Cup.

Why? Because he's a unique talent and we'd be watching something special in the history of football. I'm envious of those who were able to see Pele and Maradonna in their pomp on the world's stage. Messi could well fall into the same bracket but for us to talk about him in the same breath as them, he'll have to do something special this summer.
 
Brown Toothpick said:
As for the OP, I think Messi will be decent, at least individually, as this Argentine side is shaky in the back. They also play Gago as a starter, which is bad enough for any midfield.
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I have followed nearly all games of Argentina under Sabella baring 1 or 2 friendlies against some very uninteresting sides like Guatemala. The reality is that their defense isn't as bad as its reputation since the Germany trashing.

In the entire qualifiers (18 games) Argentina have only conceded more than 1 goal on two occasions. One of those was the very last game when they were already qualified and played with an entire B team. Messi hasn't lost a single game with Argentina for 21 games in a row currently. What they lacked under previous coaches was mainly structure and team cohesion. They didn't lack talent.

Gago too is playing well for Argentina. Very important actually. I have seen games where he came off and Argentina lost their rythm. Forget Banega who was rightfully not even nominated. A very poor professional.

The biggest mystery remains Willy Caballero's exclusion.
 
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Red_devil_ said:
It's amazing how fast they climb out of the woodwork to start an argument even though you're stating facts. Ronaldo is the better player. He's got better pace for one and he's definitely better in the air. He can reach some heights Messi can only dream of reaching. He didn't celebrate a goal but he also didn't play like shit and "save" himself for the WC and this is why he's still not fully fit so close to the WC. Messi should be in tip top shape due to all the self preservation at the end of the season.


He played a full game that went into overtime and he wasn't 100% fit and you call that a stinker ? Even on a bad day he is 10 times better than some who's having a decent game.
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He was rotten, and he was poor in the previous 2 CL finals too (free header against Chelsea aside) so it's not as if it never happens. For the money they cost I'd have expect a hell of a lot better from him and Bale, even if he wasn't fully fit his manager clearly thought he was fit enough.
 
Cait Sith said:
I have followed nearly all games of Argentina under Sabella baring 1 or 2 friendlies against some very uninteresting sides like Guatemala. The reality is that their defense isn't as bad as its reputation since the Germany trashing.

In the entire qualifiers (18 games) Argentina have only conceded more than 1 goal on two occasions. One of those was the very last game when they were already qualified and played with an entire B team. Messi hasn't lost a single game with Argentina for 21 games in a row currently. What they lacked under previous coaches was mainly structure and team cohesion. They didn't lack talent.

Gago too is playing well for Argentina. Very important actually. I have seen games where he came off and Argentina lost their rythm. Forget Banega who was rightfully not even nominated. A very poor professional.

The biggest mystery remains Willy Caballero's exclusion.
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I followed them through the qualifiers, and I agree that Sabella has added that team cohesion. They at least have a backbone and structure to their game, unlike the past couple of coaches. I however am skeptical about the team squad + defence. We'll just have to wait and see. As for Willy, he's been great for 2-3 years now, so it was just a matter of Sabella doing a Scolari and sticking to his old team. Stupid decision.

Snake Plissken said:
Yeah you need to go and watch Netball instead. Football isn't for you.
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:lol:

It is obvious why she prefers Ronaldo.
 
Red_devil_ said:
He's got better pace for one and he's definitely better in the air. He can reach some heights Messi can only dream of reaching.
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Great attributes for an athlete.

In his apparently worst season (form/injury), Messi successfully dribbled 168 times compared to 91 times for Ronaldo (league + CL). I would say most of Ronaldo's dribbles are beating the defender with pace, unlike Messi. That is much more relevant comparison than how much high they can jump. It's football, not high jump competition.
 
CLARiiON said:
Great attributes for an athlete.

In his apparently worst season (form/injury), Messi successfully dribbled 168 times compared to 91 times for Ronaldo (league + CL). I would say most of Ronaldo's dribbles are beating the defender with pace, unlike Messi. That is much more relevant comparison than how much high they can jump. It's football, not high jump competition.
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Football is about goals, not dribbling.
 
CLARiiON said:
Great attributes for an athlete.

In his apparently worst season (form/injury), Messi successfully dribbled 168 times compared to 91 times for Ronaldo (league + CL). I would say most of Ronaldo's dribbles are beating the defender with pace, unlike Messi. That is much more relevant comparison than how much high they can jump. It's football, not high jump competition.
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What makes a free header effective ? How well Messi can dribble ?
 
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