Messi at the World Cup - No Ronaldo comparisons!

Cal? said:
Actually you'd find I tipped him for topscorer.

The difference is I disagree but I can respect people having the view Messi is best, yet Messi fanbois resort to name calling whenever people disagree with their view.
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It's amazing how fast they climb out of the woodwork to start an argument even though you're stating facts. Ronaldo is the better player. He's got better pace for one and he's definitely better in the air. He can reach some heights Messi can only dream of reaching. He didn't celebrate a goal but he also didn't play like shit and "save" himself for the WC and this is why he's still not fully fit so close to the WC. Messi should be in tip top shape due to all the self preservation at the end of the season.

Snake Plissken said:
Beg your pardon, the Ramos goal. Point still stands, he was the only one who didn't celebrate because he wanted to win the game, even though he had a stinker and had one of the smallest contributions to winning the game.
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He played a full game that went into overtime and he wasn't 100% fit and you call that a stinker ? Even on a bad day he is 10 times better than some who's having a decent game.
 
This is just the direction I wanted this thread to take.
 
Actually when you think about it if Argentina are organized them they should have a shot at winning it. You have one of the greatest players in sports history and three or four other top top players around him, so even solidarity from the rest will give the team a chance.

My hope is that he actually runs at full tilt. It's been disappointing of late to see him play in little bursts.
 
Problem is Argentina are really weak at the back. Football's become so tactical that it's pretty unlikely for a single player to win it on his own. You need a side that's good from the back to the front to be successful. Teams with weak defenses win nothing. Look at this Barca -- all the talent in the world and they didn't win anything this season.

Argentina have a good draw, though. That's their best chance. Can see them going to till SF -- Ecuador in rd of 16, maybe Belgium in rd of 8.
 
I think that Messi has a lot at stake at this World Cup but doesn't necessarily have to win it to prove himself to be the greatest of all time.

If he can have a performance like Forlan in 2010 (maybe a little better for a player of Messi's quality), I think that he will solidify himself as a top three player of all time, if not the greatest player of all time. I'm not going to list his accolades or explain why he's definitely in the top tier of footballers, but his international play is the only thing holding him back. And yes, international play must factor in when examining a player. If Messi can prove at the biggest stage of football that he can take over a game and elevate his team to levels that they obviously wouldn't without him, then he will have done enough imo to be the GOAT. To play well in Argentina will help answer the questions about whether or not he needs Xaviesta to shine, whether he can play outside Barcas system, and if he can assume more responsibility on the pitch. With a masterclass performance that takes Argentina past the quarterfinals, he should be able to silence most doubters.

It's also important to consider that this may be Messi's last World Cup at his peak. Unlike Ronaldo, Messi seems to be much more susceptible to lingering injuries which will undoubtedly effect his play. Since Messi relies on his godgiven gifts of skill rather than superhuman athletic capabilities, the drop off from his current level of play could be swift and dramatic. It'll be much harder for him to adapt to different roles and find the same success (whereas Ronaldo would be able to go right to center forward and still score goals for fun. I find myself comparing him to Ronaldo for some unknown reason but just to show compare how Messi is built much differently than a normal footballer) once he loses his quickness and injuries occur some more. This is almost a Ronaldinho in 2006 WC parallel as both were the undisputed BPITW going into the WC and it was Ronaldinho's last chance to shine there as well (albeit his decline was self inflicted while Messi's will likely not be due to excessive partying).

Argentina's defensive woes have been well documented and will most likely be the decisive factor in preventing them from lifting the trophy. But if Messi can spearhead the attack to soaring heights and lift them into the Semis/Final/Victors, he will have nothing left to prove. That is what I expect from Messi during this world cup. Anything less will be a disappointment.
 
zing said:
Problem is Argentina are really weak at the back. Football's become so tactical that it's pretty unlikely for a single player to win it on his own. You need a side that's good from the back to the front to be successful. Teams with weak defenses win nothing. Look at this Barca -- all the talent in the world and they didn't win anything this season.

Argentina have a good draw, though. That's their best chance. Can see them going to till SF -- Ecuador in rd of 16, maybe Belgium in rd of 8.
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Actually Real Madrid don't have the best defence, in fact many people laughed at the notion that Ramos is a top defender.

I'd also argue Spain won so much in recent year not because they have a great defence, more like they just keep the ball better than anyone.
 
Cal? said:
Actually Real Madrid don't have the best defence, in fact many people laughed at the notion that Ramos is a top defender.

I'd also argue Spain won so much in recent year not because they have a great defence, more like they just keep the ball better than anyone.
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Spain won with Alba - Pique - Ramos - Arbeloa.. this is 10x better than anything Argentina has.

Argentina can't keep the ball as well, because the midfield is not comparable to Spain.

Real also have Alonso in front of the defense, btw.

Just inconceivable for a team of a few star players to beat a star team these days, IMO. If Argentina win this, the luck of the draw would be a big factor in it.
 
So Messi cries out for a new contract every year, gets a ~30M salary from Barca, jogs around the pitch for the last 1 1/2 seasons even if it's a decisive CL elimination round game and suddenly as the WC starts we see him run like a mad man for Argentina.

Very questionable behavior to put it mildly. Let's hope for Barca we're going to see that Messi again for the club in 2014/15...
 
Cal? said:
Actually Real Madrid don't have the best defence, in fact many people laughed at the notion that Ramos is a top defender.

I'd also argue Spain won so much in recent year not because they have a great defence, more like they just keep the ball better than anyone.
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That's not to say Spain or Real madrid had a weak defence though. They had a defence that fulfilled their requirements, it was a good defence, with incredibly athletic defenders extremely capable of dealing with explosive players. Not only that, Sergio Ramos is probably the best passing defender around at the moment, not just in skill, but also in understanding and contribution to offensive movements.

You have a defence with that insanity edge with pepe, skilled if not virtuous tacklers, and a prodigiously gifted defender in varane. All three of these defenders are incredibly physically gifted, all three are EXTREMELY good in the air (varane has a better leap then cristiano possibly, even despite being taller/stronger), all three options in varane pepe and ramos are very very quick, and between pepe and ramos, while they aren't defenders that stand out in history for their pure defensive skill, in this generation they are very very good, at certainly at the moment top 10-15 level.

Pepe and Ramos have both had outstanding international performances. Portugal in particular due to Pepe and the very underrated Bruno Alves/Rolando, had one of the best defences at Euro 2012 and progressed beyond expectation mostly because of that, their very underrated defence.

And if people laugh at the notion that Ramos is a top defender, they should laugh at Ronald Koeman too. Some people can't look at the big picture.



That's a different case from argentina. Zabaleta is an absolutely top notch fullback, and Demichelis is very good when he's focused, but he's still a defender that is so extremely liable to errors or poor decision making that it nearly negates his actually very very good defensive qualities.

Garay might be just 'good' at best, some will say that he's linked to top clubs, us even, as proof of some sort of talent, but if you want to talk about Ramos not being a great defender, then what is Garay, who couldn't usurp him or any of the madrid defenders in 4 years and was sent out on loan, when an 18 year old in varane managed to crack the starting team? He's a 27 year old that made only 31 appearances for madrid, and is still playing in the portugese league, which can't be considered on the same level of the buli, epl, la liga etc (even ligue 1 etc)

While Ramos had outstanding qualities in other facets which actually prove extremely effective and valuable, what is garay other then a 'good' defender?


Argentina have the worst goalkeeper of the tournament without a doubt to me in Romero. They have one unquestionably top class fullback, a great defender that can also cost you the game equally as he can be depended on, a 'good' defender in Garay, and after that, quite quite a thin defence in terms of qualities.

If there's one thing that's going to help argentina, it's going to be the use of mascherano as the shield of the back four, and better possesion of the ball to try to not need to put the defence into as little testing as required. I wouldn't count on Gago, he's been extremely off form at boca, but at his best he's a good distributor of the ball with two way ability and tempo control. The work of Di Maria will be key in midfield, as well as being a very difficult edge to guard offensively.

Possibly Argentina can work to protect their backline effectively, possibly they won't be exposed or Demichelis will go clean all tournament and be monstrous. You can't deny that Argentina have one of the weaker defences of the cup though. It's one i wouldn't have much faith in personally.
 
I'm not saying that Argentina have a good defence, just saying the need of a great defence like Italy in 2006 is somewhat over stated.

The likes of Ramos, Pepe can be top defenders when they don't have brain farts, the same can be said if Dimechellis.
 
Cal? said:
Actually you'd find I tipped him for topscorer.

The difference is I disagree but I can respect people having the view Messi is best, yet Messi fanbois resort to name calling whenever people disagree with their view.
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:lol: Gimme a break Cal.
 
Brwned said:
You're already wet at the thought of criticising Messi for not winning the WC? Jesus.
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Precisely, like a Pavlovian response, Cal comes to take a dump in any thread that is Messi related. And yet has the temerity to cite others as fanbois, look within there eh?
 
Completely backing him in this one, would absolutely love it if he goes on to win the whole thing. Him winning that trophy in Brazil, what a great story. Although I'm afraid it might be too great to be true, but one can dream.
 
Yo Cal, you really have some issues. Been on this Messi bashing for years. Give us a break!

As for the OP, I think Messi will be decent, at least individually, as this Argentine side is shaky in the back. They also play Gago as a starter, which is bad enough for any midfield.
 
zing said:
Problem is Argentina are really weak at the back. Football's become so tactical that it's pretty unlikely for a single player to win it on his own. You need a side that's good from the back to the front to be successful. Teams with weak defenses win nothing. Look at this Barca -- all the talent in the world and they didn't win anything this season.

Argentina have a good draw, though. That's their best chance. Can see them going to till SF -- Ecuador in rd of 16, maybe Belgium in rd of 8.
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It's not so cut and dry. Chelsea's defence when they won the cl in 09 was nothing great. Nor was any part of the team, actually. Greece won the euros through sheer organisation. Their actual defenders were you notch or anything. Heck, our defence when we walked the league in the 12-13 was ropes as well. There are many ways to skin a cat and many ways to hide your deficiencies.
 
Red_devil_ said:
Higuain outperformed him last WC in a similar scenario. What makes you think it'll change this go around ?
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Because Messi is twice the player he is and every World Cup isn't the same as the previous one?
 
amolbhatia100 said:
It's not so cut and dry. Chelsea's defence when they won the cl in 09 was nothing great. Nor was any part of the team, actually. Greece won the euros through sheer organisation. Their actual defenders were you notch or anything. Heck, our defence when we walked the league in the 12-13 was ropes as well. There are many ways to skin a cat and many ways to hide your deficiencies.
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Well, that requires the team personnel to be organised in such a way. When you have automatic starters in di Maria, Messi, Aguero, that makes the likelihood of setting up to defend like that less likely. That also requires a coach who believes in that type of play. Not every team can do these things.

And Chelsea had A Cole - Cahill - Luiz - Bosingwa in 2012 with Cech in goal.. Argentina, Zabaleta apart, don't really compare. Dimichelis, Garay.. who is their leftback? And Romero in goal..
 
I hope Argentina and Messi win it.

Barring the Germany game I thought he was very good in the last WC as well.
 
Believing Ronaldo is better than Messi as a complete player is simply moronic, so it's no surprise people call you names when you go on about it, Cal.

Anyway, my position is basically exactly the same as the OP, so thanks for sharing your opinion. It would be a shame if Messi didn't succeed at international level.
 
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zing said:
Well, that requires the team personnel to be organised in such a way. When you have automatic starters in di Maria, Messi, Aguero, that makes the likelihood of setting up to defend like that less likely. That also requires a coach who believes in that type of play. Not every team can do these things.

And Chelsea had A Cole - Cahill - Luiz - Bosingwa in 2012 with Cech in goal.. Argentina, Zabaleta apart, don't really compare. Dimichelis, Garay.. who is their leftback? And Romero in goal..
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Rojo will be their left back. Doubt Demichelis will start by the way, more likely to be Fede Fernández partnering Garay.

I think their defence is weak individually but collectively it's not as bad as people say, especially with Mascherano protecting them.
 
Red_devil_ said:
Ronaldo is the better player. He's got better pace for one and he's definitely better in the air. He can reach some heights Messi can only dream of reaching.
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You either are very biased (probably) or you don't understand the game of football. Ronaldo has better pace, is much much better in the air (obviously), has a rocket of a shot BUT about everthing else that matters in football offensively Messi has the edge this includes technique, dribbling, game intelligence, pace with the ball, close control, passing, imagination, finishing (close to goal) and I would even say that Messi is a better freekick taker as well (for those that are closer to goal). I really don't understand how people who watched both guys play throughout their career can come to the conclusion that Ronaldo is on the same level let alone better than Messi. This of course doesn't mean that Ronaldo is far away or that he can't have better games, tournaments or seasons but he's not on the level of Messi.
And please don't throw stats at me because I watch the games and you probably know the saying "There are lies, damm lies and there are statistic". Meaningless and hollow goals just don't impress me.
 
Bob Loblaw said:
Rojo will be their left back. Doubt Demichelis will start by the way, more likely to be Fede Fernández partnering Garay.

I think their defence is weak individually but collectively it's not as bad as people say, especially with Mascherano protecting them.
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It won't be the worst defence at the WC by a long shot, but for a historically top team like Arg it's a very underwhelming one. In qualifying they relied on a lot of last-ditch challenges and/or profligacy on the opposition's part. Against the better teams they can't afford to get themselves into those types of situations.

Arg key player(s):
1. Messi... or Di María? Hard to say who is more important. Messi is probably more influential in the attacking end (both build-up and finishing), Di María absolutely key for balance and transition phase. Best and most consistent Arg players in qualifying.
2. Gago, offers balance and a slight measure of control in the MF, but him and Zabaleta will be swamped trying to close down opponent attacks down their RW (also dependent on Messi's work rate)
3. Mascherano
 
I don't think it's important he does well, really. Of course it's important for Argentina and for his own ambition but nobody will think any less of him if he ends up with just one goal in the whole competition. He won't suddenly become subject to a cheeky bid from Southampton as a result. It's only England players, well let's be honest; one England player, where people decide suddenly performance at international level is all important and definitive.
 
Plugsy said:
I don't think it's important he does well, really. Of course it's important for Argentina and for his own ambition but nobody will think any less of him if he ends up with just one goal in the whole competition. He won't suddenly become subject to a cheeky bid from Southampton as a result. It's only England players, well let's be honest; one England player, where people decide suddenly performance at international level is all important and definitive.
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I disagree. It's probably the single most important thing for his standing in history, right now... It matters far less whether he wins it or even scores loads of goals, but he needs to perform. In 2010 he was excellent in the group stages, but then became invisible in the knock-out stages, first against Mexico and then against Germany. That's a problem if you're a 4-time World Player of the Year.
 
Like the thread creator, I have also been butt-hurt ever since the 2009 final, seeing him deny us two CL titles, and deny Ronaldo (I am a Ronaldo fanboi :p) atleast two Ballon D'or' has developed an irrational dislike in me towards Messi.

While I agree Messi at his best (2008-11) was on a level Ronaldo would never reach, I feel that as far as their overall career goes, Ronaldo has caught up significantly. I felt that taking the entire 2011-12 season, Ronaldo was more effective, a better player and had far more contribution to Real's season than Messi had to Barca's. While for the first six months of the 12-13 season, Messi looked like he was back to his best and going on the ridiculous scoring spree in La Liga which I consider to be one of the most amazing achievement in Football history, ever since the beginning of 2013 Ronaldo has clearly been the better player. Messi's impact in big games has declined significantly. He is playing nowhere near his best. He still shows occasional glimpses of brilliance, some great assists and the occasional free kick, I feel Ronaldo has been much better than him during this period. He has been very poor in all important games last season (CL QFs against Atletico Madrid, First Classico of the season, CDR final, League decider at Camp Nou, the classicos against Madrid from the previous season, CL First Leg against Milan, Bayern, etc.

If Messi fecks up in the world cup and goes into the eventual decline which many are predicting than Ronaldo has a good chance of ending up as the better player of the two. Currently though I would put Messi in the top 3-4 players of all time and Ronaldo just below him.

Having said that, I feel he will have a great WC. Playing alongside the likes of Di Maria, Aguero, and Higuain, he will not have any trouble creating chances or scoring goals. Ronaldo, on the other hand with his injury problems and the average Portuguese side may not have the best of tournaments.
 
Even today most sane people see the standard of international football well below that of top level Europe club football and the gap will only increase faster and wider in coming years. In decades to come the idea of defining a players talents or abilities by international performances will be seen as absurd as the charge of 'he never did it in the FA Cup' is now.

World cup football is fun and enjoyable and all the rest of it but I think we're 20 years or so beyond it being what top-class players are defined by, at least those who play in top-level European club competition - which is pretty much everyone of note now.
 
I think Messi has a lot to prove in this World Cup given how poor he's been for the last few months and I'm not sure he's going to perform.


Cal? said:
Find me one quote where I've resorted to name calling because some people think Messi is better than Ronaldo.
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"Messi fanbois" I would term name calling and you sling that around in any thread with Messi's name in it.
 
Plugsy said:
Even today most sane people see the standard of international football well below that of top level Europe club football and the gap will only increase faster and wider in coming years. In decades to come the idea of defining a players talents or abilities by international performances will be seen as absurd as the charge of 'he never did it in the FA Cup' is now.

World cup football is fun and enjoyable and all the rest of it but I think we're 20 years or so beyond it being what top-class players are defined by, at least those who play in top-level European club competition - which is pretty much everyone of note now.
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I disagree with practically all of that but even assuming that was true, players performing exceptionally well for one team and then playing well below that level will always raise questions about how good that player was as an individual and how much of their success was down to being in a team perfectly set up to maximise his talent. So if in 50 years' time when international football will seemingly become an almost irrelevant aspect of professional football, people would still be able to look back and say..."Messi was undoubtedly brilliant for Barcelona, but...". Messi's success for Argentina would remove any doubts whatsoever.
 
if Maradona had been sent off after that hand goal like he should have been and Argentina ended up losing the game, would people still think of him as a "greater" player without that wc title?
 
If Messi turns up then it could well be his tournament. Overall, his World Cup performances have been reasonably disappointing so far and I think this is the best chance he will have to win the tournament, thus going down, surely, as one of, if not the, greatest footballers of all time.

Personally, I think Messi has been saving himself in recent months to ensure he'll go into this tournament in great condition. I reckon he'll do well and I can see him ending up top goal scorer but that may not be enough to actually win the tournament this summer. Argentina's defence looks dodgy to say the least and, as Liverpool discovered last season, sometimes just relying on your forwards to bail you out doesn't work. A team needs to have a solid defence if they want to win things and I think Argentina's defence will let them down in the end.
 
Skorenzy said:
I disagree. It's probably the single most important thing for his standing in history, right now... It matters far less whether he wins it or even scores loads of goals, but he needs to perform. In 2010 he was excellent in the group stages, but then became invisible in the knock-out stages, first against Mexico and then against Germany. That's a problem if you're a 4-time World Player of the Year.
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Are Mexico any better than any of the teams he regularly trashes in the knockouts of CL or Real, who he scores so many agaisnt in the league? Just because of some random chance that he couldnt perform in 2 matches, doesn't make him less of a player. Statistically, it is insignificant simply because Messi has shown time and again he can deliver in high pressure games. Viewing those 2 matches with a separate lens when it is no different than any of the other big games he plays is a silly thing to do.
 
Watz said:
You either are very biased (probably) or you don't understand the game of football. Ronaldo has better pace, is much much better in the air (obviously), has a rocket of a shot BUT about everthing else that matters in football offensively Messi has the edge this includes technique, dribbling, game intelligence, pace with the ball, close control, passing, imagination, finishing (close to goal) and I would even say that Messi is a better freekick taker as well (for those that are closer to goal). I really don't understand how people who watched both guys play throughout their career can come to the conclusion that Ronaldo is on the same level let alone better than Messi. This of course doesn't mean that Ronaldo is far away or that he can't have better games, tournaments or seasons but he's not on the level of Messi.
And please don't throw stats at me because I watch the games and you probably know the saying "There are lies, damm lies and there are statistic". Meaningless and hollow goals just don't impress me.
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And Ronaldo doesn't have a good technique huh?
Also, Messi's techniques is overrated. His touch and control is never as golden as the likes of Maradonna, Zidane nor Iniesta.
Messi is able to control the ball in tight areas better than Ronaldo because of his low centre of gravity and quick burst of pace. It's not a suprise he's been losing possession cheaply of late due to losing a yard of his pace after series of injuries. I would even wager Ronaldo's first touch is better than Messi when taking the ball at full speed because he doesn't take many touches before getting it under control unlike Messi does, whereas Messi is better at retaining the ball in tight areas due to his low centre of gravity.
That said, neither Messi nor Ronaldo excite me the way Ronaldinho, Iniesta, Zidane does.
 
zing said:
Are Mexico any better than any of the teams he regularly trashes in the knockouts of CL or Real, who he scores so many agaisnt in the league? Just because of some random chance that he couldnt perform in 2 matches, doesn't make him less of a player. Statistically, it is insignificant simply because Messi has shown time and again he can deliver in high pressure games. Viewing those 2 matches with a separate lens when it is no different than any of the other big games he plays is a silly thing to do.
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First off, I'm not the one viewing those games through a "seperate" lens... you and others who seem to find international football irrelevant when compared to club football are. The point about sample size is a valid one, but let's say Messi particpates in 3 World Cups (discounting 2006 because he wasn't a starter, so let's assume he plays at the next one, when he'll be 30-31) and he fails to do anything of note, could that still be considered an insignificant sample size?

Also, how is focusing on those two games in any way different to all the various "Player x's record in Finals" or "Player y's record against top teams" permutations? Those usually also represent only a fairly limited amount of a player's career.


Secondly, how exactly does the insistence on international football as inferior to club football work in Messi's favour here? If the quality were that significantly lower how can he be that significantly worse than at club level? And that's even beside the main point. It's irrelevant whether it's even true or not (for the record, I do believe that club football, especially at the top, is of higher quality than international football, but just like SAF or Wenger's shop talk about this matter it has to be taken with a grain of salt) -- the point here is that international football represents a different challenge which can help us understand exactly how good/great a player is on an individual level, by taking them outside of their comfort zone (mostly anyway, there are always situations like the current Spain or German NTs where the majority of players are part of the same club set-up, but they usually represent a minority, certainly post-Bosman anyway). Again, players are praised to the heavens when they can perform to similar levels for different clubs, in different leagues/countries; so why are so many excuses being made when they fail to reproduce (or in the case of so many current greats, not even come close to) it on an international level?
 
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