Messi at the World Cup - No Ronaldo comparisons!

[EB100]

The fact that Di Stefano's unmatched success at club level and particularly on the European stage still doesn't even see him rank in many people's top three reinforces the significance of success on the international stage, don't you think? If success at the club level was all that counted then he'd be the undisputed #1.

Why? Because of 5 consecutive European cups? He only won the ballon d'or twice in that 5 year period (not consecutively), meaning his contemporaries didn't even consider him the undisputed best player in Europe at the time... twice a Real teammate of his beat him to the award in that period.

You absurdly overrate di stefano, and I think this is a general problem when people today compare great players in the past that they didn't watch to those that they did. There is a tendency to romanticize and blow up the achievements of past players in relation to current ones rather than vice versa because you only hear of and watch their good moments. Not the times they were off form, the times they didn't show up in big games, the periods they failed to achieve consistency, etc. Messi half a century from now, once he benefits from the same sort of romanticism, will be the undisputed best ever. His dominance of the game over 4 years coupled with his achievements and consistent extraordinary performance levels are genuinely unmatched in history.

 

[Souls of Mischief]

I think if Messi wins the world cup, only he and Zidane will be winners of every competition they played

 

[TheShedEnd]

I think if Messi wins the world cup, only he and Zidane will be winners of every competition they played

Copa America next year for Messi. In fact, in the next 12 months he could concievably eclipse Maradona by winning both for Argentina. They certainly have nothing to fear in South America bar possibly Colombia.

 

[Souls of Mischief]

Copa America next year for Messi. In fact, in the next 12 months he could concievably eclipse Maradona by winning both for Argentina. They certainly have nothing to fear in South America bar possibly Colombia.

why do they get the copa straight after a world cup when we have to wait 2 years for the Euros

 

[TheShedEnd]

why do they get the copa straight after a world cup when we have to wait 2 years for the Euros

Same time frame, last one was in 2011. Can't play both Copa and Euros at the same time really.

 

[Souls of Mischief]

Same time frame, last one was in 2011. Can't play both Copa and Euros at the same time really.

Oh right yeah.

If Messi wins the world cup, its a no brainer for me, he really is the greatest player ever. For Argentina to beat this German team will require some performance

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

http://www.football365.com/f365-features/9378115/WhoScored-s-Team-Of-The-World-Cup

Cheers.

 

[Cal?]

He's not on here commenting on Real Madrid at every turn. You do just that with Messi. That's why you're the laughing stock of this forum.

One player lead his country to the world cup final, the other was eliminated in the group stages after missing 6 sitters that would have put his side through to the knockout stage.

Enjoy watching the BPITW

I've made 24 (25 including this one) posts in this thread which has over 1,000 replies, clearly I'm obsessed.

 

[Riyami UTD]

Oh right yeah.

If Messi wins the world cup, its a no brainer for me, he really is the greatest player ever. For Argentina to beat this German team will require some performance

Hes already the best player ever to people involved in football but to the general public/fans he needs to win to be considered the best ever.

 

[TheShedEnd]

Hes already the best player ever to people involved in football but to the general public/fans he needs to win to be considered the best ever.

Speaking of which, taken from Twitter:

Robben: "Messi es el número uno, el mejor de la historia."

 

[Malva]

I don't think it's that. It's the standards he's set. He's performed like an absolute freak over the years. And were all used to it.

i remember whenever i watched barca higlights between 2008-2012 i was geniunely surprised if i saw messi score less then 2 goals.

 

[sammyvine]

To be fair all the sporting superstars all say Messi is the best

Beckham, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Wenger, Henry, Lebron James, Kobe Bryant etc....Never really heard anyone say otherwise

 

[amolbhatia50k]

To be fair all the sporting superstars all say Messi is the best

Beckham, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Wenger, Henry, Lebron James, Kobe Bryant etc....Never really heard anyone say otherwise

The younger ones are bound to say messi is the greeters though. Wenger, though, has obviously seen a hell of a lot more football and I do remember the interview where he said messi was the greatest of all time.

 

[Souls of Mischief]

The one difference between Messi and Ronaldo is loyalty.

if ronaldo had stayed with us, who knows.

 

[Cheesy]

The one difference between Messi and Ronaldo is loyalty.

if ronaldo had stayed with us, who knows.

Who knows what?

 

[Souls of Mischief]

Who knows what?

where ronaldo would stand had he stayed.

The first three years at Real Madrid were a huge gigantic balls up, records aside it was nothing special trophy wise. With Ronaldo we probably would have won way more trophies, giving him a chance to get more Ballon D'ors and have a better case against messi\

EDIT OOPS no ronaldo comparisons, sorry

 

[Cheesy]

where ronaldo would stand had he stayed.

The first three years at Real Madrid were a huge gigantic balls up, records aside it was nothing special trophy wise. With Ronaldo we probably would have won way more trophies, giving him a chance to get more Ballon D'ors and have a better case against messi

So much of a balls-up he scored more goals than games in a three year period in one of the best leagues in world football. Ronaldo's game has arguably changed and we can debate whether he became better, or was better in 2007/2008, but it was hardly a "balls-up" considering how well he did. Winning trophies doesn't guarantee personal accolades either. It does help, but Ronaldo wouldn't be in a better standing, or a worse standing either, had he stayed with us. Even if he'd won more trophies here, I don't think he'd have been able to win more Ballon D'ors because of how ridiculously incredible Messi was.

 

[RedStarUnited]

So much of a balls-up he scored more goals than games in a three year period in one of the best leagues in world football. Ronaldo's game has arguably changed and we can debate whether he became better, or was better in 2007/2008, but it was hardly a "balls-up" considering how well he did. Winning trophies doesn't guarantee personal accolades either. It does help, but Ronaldo wouldn't be in a better standing, or a worse standing either, had he stayed with us. Even if he'd won more trophies here, I don't think he'd have been able to win more Ballon D'ors because of how ridiculously incredible Messi was.

He went to the same league as Messi and was in direct competition, im not sure that done him any favours. Because as great as Ronaldo was, Messi was just that little bit better.

Anyway, why is it Maradonas International form is rated higher than Messis club form? I also think if the Argies win the world cup, And especially if he has a big hand in it, the history books will favour him. Contrary to popular beliefs, Zidane was not the best player at the world cup 98. A great performance in the final put him in the history books. Xavi dominated far more opponents at a far more regular consistency than Zidane ever did but he still wouldn't make peoples all time great teams.

 

[Cheesy]

He went to the same league as Messi and was in direct competition, im not sure that done him any favours. Because as great as Ronaldo was, Messi was just that little bit better.

That's the main gist of it though. Being in direct competition might not have helped Ronaldo's case, but did it really matter? Messi was just so incredible that Ronaldo could've been anywhere and it wouldn't really matter: Messi was always going to win most of the accolades because of how good he was.

 

[Theon]

He has lost a bit of pace and explosiveness I feel which made him so devastating when he picked up the ball from a deeper position and ran at defenders.

Certainly has. I think that's the biggest difference with Messi currently, much more than the perceived lack of work-ethic. Although even that's a significant change because the greatest footballers all had a fantastic, infectious commitment which influenced the whole team. At its peak Messi's dribbling really was unmatched, the ease with which he could drive past players due to that combination of acceleration, agility and ball control was just on another level to anything I've seen - only a pre-injury Ronaldo comes close. The likes of Ronaldinho had more skills but Messi just didn't need them.

In terms of this World Cup he's been pretty disappointing relative to the expectation IMO. That isn't to say that he's been poor because he clearly hasn't, but higher standards are (rightfully) applied to Messi and it hasn't been the special, all-time greatest form that he’s capable off. Whichever way you look at it, he has not been at that Pele '70/Cruyff '74/Maradona '86 level. Gio compared him to Baggio in '94 which IMO is quite an apt comparison, as the general performance doesn't match those previous greats but he's certainly carried Argentina by bailing them out with a few big moments.

If Messi were to retire today he'd be considered the greatest player of all time by many people here. If he were to win the World Cup he'll be considered the greatest player of all time by significantly more. That's as far as it goes.

People need to stop getting offended at the suggestion that he is not in the top three or is not the best ever or whatever. Sometimes it is intended as a slight on Messi because of some weird fanboy nonsense but sometimes it is also just recognition of the fact that there were otherworldly players in previous decades too. It is more a sign of respect to past players who are so easily overlooked rather than an attempt to criticise Messi.

Aye, agree with both of these points.

Messi not performing at his best at a World Cup doesn't remove him from consideration as being the best of all time - rather it's a missed opportunity to cement his place in that discussion as being either the undisputed or most popular choice. It's a pretty simple distinction but a few Messi fans have treated the latter as meaning the former, when virtually no one has said that.

Of course he's still right up there with Maradona and Pele. The point is that a few years ago he was well on his way to surpassing the both of them yet he seems to have stuttered and it's no longer the foregone conclusion it previously seemed. If he had carried on that 09-13 form into this World Cup and performed at that level IMO it would be a fairly unanimous view that he was better than Maradona, but he hasn't done it so the debate will rage on.

 

[Gio]

Why? Because of 5 consecutive European cups? He only won the ballon d'or twice in that 5 year period (not consecutively), meaning his contemporaries didn't even consider him the undisputed best player in Europe at the time... twice a Real teammate of his beat him to the award in that period.

You absurdly overrate di stefano, and I think this is a general problem when people today compare great players in the past that they didn't watch to those that they did. There is a tendency to romanticize and blow up the achievements of past players in relation to current ones rather than vice versa because you only hear of and watch their good moments. Not the times they were off form, the times they didn't show up in big games, the periods they failed to achieve consistency, etc. Messi half a century from now, once he benefits from the same sort of romanticism, will be the undisputed best ever. His dominance of the game over 4 years coupled with his achievements and consistent extraordinary performance levels are genuinely unmatched in history.

The research shows that people value highest the stars of the generation of when they were growing up. 17 was seen to be the average age at which you'd rate what you were seeing as the "best ever" or thereabouts, largely because the intensity of what you're experiencing. Of course you get the old-timers who say it was better back in the day, but equally you get the young ones who proclaim what they're seeing as the greatest. While the highlights can paint the old generation in a favourable light, similarly the present day stars benefit from the over-exposure of media so we see every flicker of greatness from every angle in every game throughout their career. Fundamentally a lot of that works both ways. If it favours anything it's probably defenders of yore (because we judge them by their mistakes and we don't see them in the same detail we analyse today's defenders) and attackers of today (because every moment of greatness is captured against everything that was lost for the likes of Di Stefano and Pele).

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Certainly has. I think that's the biggest difference with Messi currently, much more than the perceived lack of work-ethic. Although even that's a significant change because the greatest footballers all had a fantastic, infectious commitment which influenced the whole team. At its peak Messi's dribbling really was unmatched, the ease with which he could drive past players due to that combination of acceleration, agility and ball control was just on another level to anything I've seen - only a pre-injury Ronaldo comes close. The likes of Ronaldinho had more skills but Messi just didn't need them.

In terms of this World Cup he's been pretty disappointing relative to the expectation IMO. That isn't to say that he's been poor because he clearly hasn't, but higher standards are (rightfully) applied to Messi and it hasn't been the special, all-time greatest form that he’s capable off. Whichever way you look at it, he has not been at that Pele '70/Cruyff '74/Maradona '86 level. Gio compared him to Baggio in '94 which IMO is quite an apt comparison, as the general performance doesn't match those previous greats but he's certainly carried Argentina by bailing them out with a few big moments.

I agree. At his peak, he was the best dribbler I've ever seen. I suspect the nagging injuries the past 2 years and constantly playing have taken a toll. It's a shame, because his runs were mesmerizing and great to watch.

I do think he hasn't perhaps performed to the level of all-time greats in this WC. I was too young to witness Maradona in '86 or Pele in '70, but I suspect Messi hasn't quite performed at that level.

A great performance in the WC final though will certainly help his case for being the GOAT I suppose.

 

[Cait Sith]

The fact that Di Stefano's unmatched success at club level and particularly on the European stage still doesn't even see him rank in many people's top three reinforces the significance of success on the international stage, don't you think? If success at the club level was all that counted then he'd be the undisputed #1.

That has more to do with the fact that Di Stefano played more than 60 years ago if you ask me. I'm fairly certain if Di Stefano's Real Madrid was transformed into this current age with all its achievements (5 CL wins in a row!) he'd be regarded as the undisputed #1 regardless of national team glory similar to how Messi is already regarded as the #1 by a lot of people. It's just that barely anyone experienced Di Stefano. Either you are at least 70 years old to have seen Di Stefano play or you are an extreme football fanatic who downloads and watches extensive footage from those times. That's surely less than 1 % of the Caf member base. For the majority it's hearsay, Wikipedia and a few 5 minute Youtube clips. Naturally people don't hype him up as the #1 because of this lack of experience. This is different for say Pelé not because he performed in World Cups but because World Cups back in the 50s and 60s had a much bigger exposure and reached more people with a much bigger hype surrounding it than weekly La Liga games or even European Cup games (which was a brand new thing in the 50s). The World Cup was such an event that it was abused by dictators for selfpromotion. It was a very significant medium that reached everyone. This is most definitely not the case anymore. Gareth Bale might never take part in a World Cup but if you want to see him there is gazillions of footage of him. Go to YouTube, type "Bale" and that's it. Real Madrid market him like crazy, his face is on Fifa and whatnot etc. He doesn't need a World Cup to get exposure in 2014 unlike if he had played in the 50s.

 

[Raees]

Like I said I think Maradona winning the UEFA Cup - which was of course a much more prestigious event 25 years ago - is enough success on the European stage in the same way Messi reaching the WC final is enough also. A year ago the idea of this Argentina team reaching the final was sniggered at by many so when the dust settles it will be seen for the huge success that it is. Along with that Messi will be recognised for being the driving force in getting them to the semis and forcing every single team they played against to park the bus and nullify their own attacking strengths, including Holland and many people's tip for player of the tournament.

There will always be people who doubt Messi's claim to greatness because he is up against

1. A player who won 2 1/2 World Cups, had an absurd goal record and was the star of the first World Cup on colour TV
2. A player who dominated the World Cup like no-one will again and carried a small team to league triumph in the toughest league in perhaps decades
3. A player who won the first five European Cups as the crown jewel in the side
4. A player who revolutionised attacking football, won three European Cups in a row and created a role without a set position in which he influenced the game from all areas on the pitch
5. A player who created a unique role in defence because of his talent alone and who again won three EC's in a row

People need to stop getting offended at the suggestion that he is not in the top three or is not the best ever or whatever. Sometimes it is intended as a slight on Messi because of some weird fanboy nonsense but sometimes it is also just recognition of the fact that there were otherworldly players in previous decades too. It is more a sign of respect to past players who are so easily overlooked rather than an attempt to criticise Messi.

Brilliant post.

I think people need to realise, most of us want to see Messi do well.. it would please me no end that a player i have seen week in week out becomes the greatest or one of the greatest. He's also a very likeable footballer too... hence why it would make a win for Argentina sweeter in my eyes, but the amount of 'is this the best ever [insert theme] threads in this world cup alone have been amusing. Its like the past few world cups have been so dire, we're just grateful to see something which has actually been decent to watch and in a rush to proclaim it the greatest ever.

I don't think enough respect is shown to the greats of the past.. you look at someone like Didi for example, stunning player... put him in that current Brazil side and he solves all their play-making problems. In fact post 82, they've never produced any decent playmaking centre-mids of note, but this 'modern football' is better, faster stronger etc .. it would have you believe only the current players deserve to be up there as the challenges they face are so much greater.. doesn't wash with me. You can't say that when you see Messi in that semi barely running and still having more of an impact than Robben and say modern day footballers are greater because they're physically superior. A great footballing mind > physical prowess,. A young Pele was a superior physical specimen than Messi, he was a tank.. he wouldn't struggle in the modern game, imagine him linking with Neymar.. he'd smash it.

If Messi wins on sunday and is influential, he pushes himself above Di Stefano/Cruyff for me, but some of these great players were repeat finalists/winners. He still has time on his hands, 31 next world cup.

*being too young to see some of the old greats in action isn't an excuse, so much footage is available of their EC games, league games, world cup games - if you're going to proclaim Messi as goat, watch the old matches and give your views some context.

 

[Snake Plissken]

Reading through the last couple of pages reminded me of 2010 a bit. Ie getting praise for his performances then instantly becoming shit after one game. And this isn't specific to this forum, but I also find it interesting to note that the goal posts are already being moved, in some cases it's went from "he needs to win a world cup" to "he'll never be as good as Maradona, Pele etc". Obviously some are getting a little shaky with him having made the final.

Anyway he didn't have a great game, looked to be struggling physically after only an hour. But then Mascherano and Romero aside I don't think any of them played well. Fine margins too, after a great run if Maxi Rodriguez doesn't completely mess up his volley Messi would have probably been lauded again.

For me this was a game where it was really clear he's a fraction slower now. On the few occasions he got running at the Dutch defense they always managed to get a foot in. A year ago they wouldn't have gotten near him, but the little loss in acceleration makes a significant difference, and naturally means he loses more of those dribbles than he used to. Either way he really did well to take an underperforming, pretty mediocre Argie side to the semi's, and even though he didn't play particularly well in the semi he's still played his part and captained his side to a World Cup final in the backyard of his countries biggest rivals.

I don't think they'll win it, but anything is possible. But one thing is certain, he's a game away from making some people's worst nightmare a reality.

 

[Brwned]

i see, messi is against al that

but péle is not against maradona and maradona is not against pele

and distefano is not against pele or maradona or cruyff

according to you, then messi must;

1) winn 2 and a half world cups
2) bring napoli to win 2 scudettos
3) win another world cup with a bad team
4) revolutionize football
5) win the first five champions leagues

meanwhile, all the records he broke from tenths others players are not enough

it doesnt matter that neither pele, nor maradona or distefano or cruyff hasnt beat those records

is messi that has to do what the rest of the players did

come on!

Marcos, this is what you call a straw man argument. No, I did not say and do not think any of that. What I'm saying is that the people that Messi is being compared to have achieved incredible things and should not be brushed aside as if they were non-entities, which in my view tends to happen when it gets to this silly GOAT debate. Beckenbauer and Cruyff don't even register in the debate which is just absurd. Messi has a claim of being the best player in the best club side of all-time, has numerous scoring records, will likely break the record for Ballon d'Ors and there is plenty of reason for him to be present in this discussion. All I was saying was that IF people do think that the others are better, it's not a slight on Messi. The people he's being compared to are similarly remarkable players. The idea that not rating Messi as the best is somehow not appreciating the talent that's on show is a remarkable display of ignorance to the players he's being compared to, IMO.

Just to make it clear, I think people are perfectly entitled to think Messi is the best ever. He's tremendously talented and has achieved plenty and I'm delighted that he's reached a World Cup final.

Why?

Between 1945 and 1964 he won 13 league titles and 5 European Cups and was one of the best players in the team in every single season which, as far as I can tell, sets him apart from any other player in club football. You have someone like his team-mate Gento who won one less league title and one more European Cup, but he obviously wasn't as key to the team for such a long period. As for the stuff about the Ballon d'Or, come on...he didn't even feature in the Ballon d'Or list for 1958 yet he finished as the top scorer in the European Cup in 57/58 as he scored in every round of the European Cup (for the second year running). If you're going to use that alone as your guide to the best footballers in Europe then you're going to have some problems. It's great that it works when you're arguing for Messi and modern football, but there's some serious flaws there. He's also the only player to score in every round of the European Cup on three separate occasions for what it's worth. You're right though, he wasn't that consistent, it's all gloss and nostalgia.

Success is overrated when judging individuals. What matters is whether Di Stefano out-performed messi at club level.

Yes, I think Di Stéfano out-performed Messi at club level. That's an unfair comparison because Don Alfredo won his last title just a couple of months before he turned 38 and was named the best player in Europe at 33. Messi has plenty of time to achieve much more in his club career.

 

[Rykker_4united]

Marcos, this is what you call a straw man argument. No, I did not say and do not think any of that. What I'm saying is that the people that Messi is being compared to have achieved incredible things and should not be brushed aside as if they were non-entities, which in my view tends to happen when it gets to this silly GOAT debate. Beckenbauer and Cruyff don't even register in the debate which is just absurd. Messi has a claim of being the best player in the best club side of all-time, has numerous scoring records, will likely break the record for Ballon d'Ors and there is plenty of reason for him to be present in this discussion. All I was saying was that IF people do think that the others are better, it's not a slight on Messi. The people he's being compared to are similarly remarkable players. The idea that not rating Messi as the best is somehow not appreciating the talent that's on show is a remarkable display of ignorance to the players he's being compared to, IMO.

Just to make it clear, I think people are perfectly entitled to think Messi is the best ever. He's tremendously talented and has achieved plenty and I'm delighted that he's reached a World Cup final.



Between 1945 and 1964 he won 13 league titles and 5 European Cups and was one of the best players in the team in every single season which, as far as I can tell, sets him apart from any other player in club football. You have someone like his team-mate Gento who won one less league title and one more European Cup, but he obviously wasn't as key to the team for such a long period. As for the stuff about the Ballon d'Or, come on...he didn't even feature in the Ballon d'Or list for 1958 yet he finished as the top scorer in the European Cup in 57/58 as he scored in every round of the European Cup (for the second year running). If you're going to use that alone as your guide to the best footballers in Europe then you're going to have some problems. It's great that it works when you're arguing for Messi and modern football, but there's some serious flaws there. He's also the only player to score in every round of the European Cup on three separate occasions for what it's worth. You're right though, he wasn't that consistent, it's all gloss and nostalgia.



Yes, I think Di Stéfano out-performed Messi at club level. That's an unfair comparison because Don Alfredo won his last title just a couple of months before he turned 38 and was named the best player in Europe at 33. Messi has plenty of time to achieve much more in his club career.

imo its impossible to compare players from that time period with current players. Its a different game.

 

[Rykker_4united]

A lot of people have incredibly short memories about just how good Messi has been in his career, excluding his previous season that was still remarkable if he was just a very good player. On the form he's shown in the last few games, he's not been spectacular, but he's not helped much by the one dimensional team he is playing in. His form prior to the injury against PSG was better than any other player ever, but thats just my opinion, man.

 

[Cal?]

Like I said before, if Argentina wins it on Sunday, I'll never argue against him being the best footballer ever ever in the universe again.

Even if he's sent off in the first minute and Argentina win it on penalties, it'd have been Messi leading them to the World CUp.

 

[Malva]

german's are too strong unfortunately. would take a mammoth of a performance. it's such a shame that aguero and di maria are struggling with injury, their movement would really help free space for messi. di maria especially. Watch any game from this world cup and there isn't any moment where there isn't a specific player going out of his way to follow Messi all over the pitch and he's double/triple teamed and space guarded. Bruno Martins indi and co literally follow him all over the pitch.

We'll find all the answers on sunday, with no excuses.

 

[Cal?]

german's are too strong unfortunately. would take a mammoth of a performance. it's such a shame that aguero and di maria are struggling with injury, their movement would really help free space for messi. di maria especially. Watch any game from this world cup and there isn't any moment where there isn't a specific player going out of his way to follow Messi all over the pitch and he's double/triple teamed and space guarded. Bruno Martins indi and co literally follow him all over the pitch.

We'll find all the answers on sunday, with no excuses.

It's an even bigger shame that Reus is out of the world cup.

 

[Malva]

It's an even bigger shame that Reus is out of the world cup.

that is true, though i've never rated Reus as highly as others seem to. A big loss nevertheless, and i think the loss of Mustafi (not him, but a proper fullback) is a problem still, though i don't know about his readiness for the final. Losing Di Maria is an unmatched displacement of any side though imo, Such a huge swath of energy and danger going forward that can't be very much replaced for Argentina. They need the danger he brings in terms of pace and creativity on the Ball, he's literally the only one that does anything going forwards besides Leo, although Higuain has definitely finally picked it up the last 2 games. Who knows if Aguero will be ready, looks like he won't.

 

[Cal?]

that is true, though i've never rated Reus as highly as others seem to. A big loss nevertheless, and i think the loss of Mustafi (not him, but a proper fullback) is a problem still, though i don't know about his readiness for the final. Losing Di Maria is an unmatched displacement of any side though imo, Such a huge swath of energy and danger going forward that can't be very much replaced for Argentina. They need the danger he brings in terms of pace and creativity on the Ball, he's literally the only one that does anything going forwards besides Leo, although Higuain has definitely finally picked it up the last 2 games. Who knows if Aguero will be ready, looks like he won't.

Personally I rate Reus ahead of Di Maria (if United can sign either), but agree that Di Maria is a bigger miss for Argentina than Reus for Germany.

 

[Raees]

Personally I rate Reus ahead of Di Maria (if United can sign either), but agree that Di Maria is a bigger miss for Argentina than Reus for Germany.

Different type of wingers. Reus is more of a finisher, Di Maria can take on a multitude of players from a standing start. I think a team like ours which is in need of a rebuild and lacks the ability to put teams on the backfoot, Di Maria is needed... he can turn defence into attack as soon as he gets on the ball, Reus isn't as good as running with the ball.. time after time, he likes to pick and choose when he wants to dribble.

Someone like Sanchez, best of both worlds.. can do what Di Maria does and score at a prolific rate too - he just must not have been interested.

 

[Cal?]

Different type of wingers. Reus is more of a finisher, Di Maria can take on a multitude of players from a standing start. I think a team like ours which is in need of a rebuild and lacks the ability to put teams on the backfoot, Di Maria is needed... he can turn defence into attack as soon as he gets on the ball, Reus isn't as good as running with the ball.. time after time, he likes to pick and choose when he wants to dribble.

Someone like Sanchez, best of both worlds.. can do what Di Maria does and score at a prolific rate too - he just must not have been interested.

Reus has more of the Ronaldo element in him, which I guess you can say it's because he's more prolific.

We'll see who LVG signs...

 

[Sarni]

Same time frame, last one was in 2011. Can't play both Copa and Euros at the same time really.

The next Copa after this will be 2016 though, the exact same year we have Euro. It's not a regular competition I think, in 2004 they did play it after Euros, although they've now gone into 4-year span - 2007, 2011, 2015, 2019, 2023 plus special centennial competition in the US in 2016.

 

[Sarni]

Reus has more of the Ronaldo element in him, which I guess you can say it's because he's more prolific.

We'll see who LVG signs...

We've got no chance of landing Reus.

 

[Cal?]

We've got no chance of landing Reus.

Not this summer, I meant like we'll see who LVG signs and it looks like an exciting season.

 

[Hell Raiser]

It is almost impossible to compare players from different eras. He is without a doubt the best player of this era but no one can really say if he was better than Maradona for example, just different football.

 

[Brwned]

@Brwned (because of your point n.º 2).

I usually trust your opinion on these matters, hence, can you counter my argument that the "outlandishness" of Napoli's Calcio wins are given some sort of revisionist overstatement? Not extremely, but sometimes it comes across as a miracle of unmatchable historical impact, which sounds a bit too much to me.

I know little more than what I can gather from looking at the league table and squads of the era but:

--- Wasn't Napoli a strong investor by that time? I see that it was a massive climb on the table from pre-Maradona years, but didn't they strengthen their squad with considerably decent players in other sectors as well?
--- Top teams seemed to lose a whole lot of points. Napoli only won half of their games in their first title. Whilst this is a testament to the competitiveness of the league, it also suggest to me that the difference from the traditional super-powers of the time to the middle-of-the-pack and bottom teams wasn't very high. In other words, it was up for grabs by a number of teams.
--- Sampdoria. Weren't they comparable to Napoli in terms of strength? Didn't they also win a title when Calcio was the toughest league around, the first of their unremarkable history? Who was their Maradona, if it was that near-impossible to accomplish without a God like him on the squad?

All this gives me the impression that Maradona, the best player in the world, tipped Napoli over the edge, something which tend to happens with the best players in the world. It seems more realistic than the romanticized version that it was such a unique thing in football history.

All this has no bearing to me on whether he should be regarded as GOAT or not. I barely watched him play, and remember very little, so am just one more of the youtube clips crowd. I was never one to seek an opinion on that matter, for which there is no universal truth to me. I just enjoy myths, and trying to put them into context.

It's definitely a myth to an extent but it was still an incredible achievement. Winning a Serie A title in that time with the team they had was not particularly remarkable because in the 10 seasons between 1982-1991 there were 7 different Serie A winners. At that time there was very little between the top 6 - on average it was around 11 points between 1st and 6th and in all but one of those 10 seasons there was 5 points or less between the top 2. For a comparison, last year in the Serie A there was 17 points between 1st and 2nd and an absurd 44 points between 1st and 6th.

Perhaps the greatest title win in that period was Hellas Verona's - their only league title in their history. Up until then they had only finished higher than 5th once in Serie A history and within 5 seasons they'd been relegated to Serie B. That is a remarkable title win and that is the stuff of legends - Danish star Preben Elkjaer moving immediately after a successful Euro '84 to a small club in Italy and taking them to the peak of Serie A in his first season. The season after he left Verona were relegated.

Sampdoria were similar in the sense that up until then they hadn't even finished in the top three in their Serie A history, and besides one further 3rd place finish three years later they went back to being a midtable side (finishing 18 points behind Milan in the season after their title win). They had a strong team with quality throughout the side in Pagliuca, Vierchowod, Cerezo, Lombardo, Vialli and Mancini but simply couldn't keep up that level of performance in consecutive seasons (which no doubt was partly down to their success in the European Cup).

What was special about what Maradona did with Napoli is that they finished in the top two for four seasons in a row, winning the title twice. That kind of consistency - from a team that had only finished in the top two twice before in their history - was a genuinely remarkable achievement. Since the 60s the only teams that had finished in the top two for four seasons in a row were La Grande Inter, the all-conquering Juve side of the 70s with Bettega and Causio and Scirea's Juventus in the early 80s. Three truly great teams in the previous three decades, and somehow this small team from Naples had managed to catapult themselves into that bracket with a lot of help from Maradona.

They had money to spend and the likes of Ferrara, De Napoli, Bagni and Alemão provided a strong backbone for the likes of Maradona, Giordano, Careca, Carnevale and (for a short while) Bertoni to work their magic. They weren't an average team on any level and it's not unthinkable that if they had another top player there instead of Maradona - e.g. Gullit, Matthaus, van Basten or one of the other superstar imports - that they could have won the title anyway, but I don't think you could say that they would have been able to finish in the top two for four seasons in a row. That's what was special, for that one short period Napoli had established themselves as one of the big hitters in Italy and after Maradona left them they took two decades just to get into the top three again. The fact they managed that at a time when Inter and Milan were investing more than ever makes it doubly impressive to remain in that top two.

Following this huge investment in the late 80s from the two Milan clubs - which saw the likes of Matthaus, Brehme, Klinsmann, Gullit, Rijkaard and van Basten flock to Milan - Inter won the title by a huge 11 points in '88 (22 points ahead of 6th), just a season after finishing 5th without the Germans, and Milan of course went on to establish themselves as the dominant force in Europe. They really took it up a notch in terms of investment and went a level above anything Napoli could manage and yet they still couldn't knock Napoli out of those top two spots. Careca was Napoli's only other true star and while he was one of Brazil's remaining quality players he was nowhere near the likes of Matthaus, Rijkaard, Gullit or van Basten in truth.

So while I would say that context is useful here and Serie A in that time was ultra-competitive and indeed up for grabs, if you look at Maradona's time there as a whole it is still absolutely fair to say that what he did with them was unique, and the level of influence and responsibility he had in their team was similarly unique.