Messi at the World Cup - No Ronaldo comparisons!

Cait Sith said:
The Robben mania in comparison to the criticism of Messi's overall play is kinda amusing though. When I personally criticized Messi's play I did so knowing what he is truly capable of, not to put him down. But even this current Messi is still far more involved as the creative hub of his team than Robben who is only utilized as a counterattacking outlet upfront to chase balls on the break into oceans of space and run at defenders 1 vs. 1 (his assist today at the end after a Chile corner when their entire team was pushed forward being an example). Messi is averaging 47 successful passes per game so far in the competition. Robben 17. Iran being bad on paper and Spain being the best doesn't mean much either. Robben could run 1 vs. 1 at Pique. Messi had to score vs. 11 Iranians behind the ball.

Think this discussion will be put to bed rather quickly anyway once Agüero and Higuain shake off the dust and provide the movement and Messi slowly gets into his groove. I'm a believer. :)
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Or that's in theory at least. Messi has indeed excelled with the NT in the past 2 years whenever they played fairly open opponents and he was absolutely key in these encounters, running the offense and a good part of the transitional play. On the other hand, they didn't fare so well against the more defensive Bolivia, Venezuela and Peru in qualifying for example. So, in a sense, it's no surprise that they struggled to break down Quieroz's Iran. And if Sabella had stuck to his guns from the off, we likely would've seen a far more dynamic display against Bosnia. Next up, Nigeria should see a more open game, but also against very physical opposition.

So far the deadly quartet hasn't clicked at all. Agüero has simply been invisible and uninvolved, Higuaín keeps opp DF occupied but too sloppy in build-up (doesn't look fully match fit either), Di María full of good will but very little precision in his play thus far. Messi himself, apart from his 2nd half v Bosnia and his two flashes of goalscoring brilliance, hasn't exactly stood out either.

Ironically, considering the bad press I've been giving him all year in the run-up to the WC, Sergio Romero has probably been (one of) Argentina's best performer(s). "Weak link" Rojo has also been a bit of a bright spot in that sense, especially compared to Zabaleta. At least one prediction of mine has rung true though; Zabaleta isn't getting much, if any, support to defend his side and it's been extremely obvious. Bosnian goal came from his side, in his back if I'm not mistaken. And the Iran game was a complete horror show for him, got caught out by his marker 3-4 times which led to Iran having clear goalscoring opportunities and needing Romero to make some excellent saves and could/should have given away a penalty.
 
Skorenzy said:
Ironically, considering the bad press I've been giving him all year in the run-up to the WC, Sergio Romero has probably been (one of) Argentina's best performer(s). "
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I think Romero has done his part, but at the same time, Romero has always been a top top shot stopper, fantastic reflexes that can snap like any of the best. He's done his part by making great saves on reaction oriented shots.

Why i hate Romero being the starting goalkeeper for a national team like Argentina is because he is extremely extremely weak at decision making, positioning, cross command, these are things that have plagued him everywhere he's gone, when i watched him at sampdoria, in holland, and all his national career.

When the stakes get higher, and where mistakes can decide games... having Romero in your goal is still a massive detriment.

And i think Caballero could have made all the saves Romero has anyways. Without all the other risks and downsides of romero too in my opinion.
 
Malva said:
I think Romero has done his part, but at the same time, Romero has always been a top top shot stopper, fantastic reflexes that can snap like any of the best. He's done his part by making great saves on reaction oriented shots.

Why i hate Romero being the starting goalkeeper for a national team like Argentina is because he is extremely extremely weak at decision making, positioning, cross command, these are things that have plagued him everywhere he's gone, when i watched him at sampdoria, in holland, and all his national career.

When the stakes get higher, and where mistakes can decide games... having Romero in your goal is still a massive detriment.

And i think Caballero could have made all the saves Romero has anyways. Without all the other risks and downsides of romero too in my opinion.
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Yeah, I'm aware, unfortunately. I'd say he's a decent-to-good shot stopper, but I still seem to remember too many instances in the past where his wrists buckled far too easily. One of his saves, a header from Dejagah(?) that he tipped over in mid-air, was IMO almost on par with Ochoa's on Neymar.
 
Berginyon said:
Lionel Messi is a very good player but I feel like he has been the product of the Barca system and his subpar performances at the World Cups have proven my theory correct. Cristiano Ronaldo had to carry the Manchester United squad on his back during his days here, Messi never had to carry any team. If you take out Ronaldo and Messi and pit the best possible Portugal team over the last 8 years against the best possible Argentina team over the last 8 years. Argentina will win 4-0.
Look at a player like Klose who have clearly outperformed Messi to a shocking degree but because he's not a 'media darling' he never got the hype of Messi and will go down as one of the great under rated players of our generation. I'm not saying that Messi isn't a very good player, I'm saying that he isn't a GREAT player. There is tiers to that.

Great Players(over the last 5 years) Ronaldo/Xavi/Iniesta
Very Good Players(over the last 5 Years) Messi/Suarez/Robben/Bastin/

Messi is able to elevate himself into that first tier because of the system. The Barca system is build for a small agile mover like Messi to excel in. He wouldn't do well at all in a Manchester or Liverpool system. The system of hard ball. He's just not big enough from a physical standpoint. But I hope he does well at this World Cup. I always root for the little guys!
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:lol: stop it. Just stop.
 
Berginyon said:
Lionel Messi is a very good player but I feel like he has been the product of the Barca system and his subpar performances at the World Cups have proven my theory correct. Cristiano Ronaldo had to carry the Manchester United squad on his back during his days here, Messi never had to carry any team. If you take out Ronaldo and Messi and pit the best possible Portugal team over the last 8 years against the best possible Argentina team over the last 8 years. Argentina will win 4-0.
Look at a player like Klose who have clearly outperformed Messi to a shocking degree but because he's not a 'media darling' he never got the hype of Messi and will go down as one of the great under rated players of our generation. I'm not saying that Messi isn't a very good player, I'm saying that he isn't a GREAT player. There is tiers to that.

Great Players(over the last 5 years) Ronaldo/Xavi/Iniesta
Very Good Players(over the last 5 Years) Messi/Suarez/Robben/Bastin/

Messi is able to elevate himself into that first tier because of the system. The Barca system is build for a small agile mover like Messi to excel in. He wouldn't do well at all in a Manchester or Liverpool system. The system of hard ball. He's just not big enough from a physical standpoint. But I hope he does well at this World Cup. I always root for the little guys!
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Are you tbanty in disguise?
 
T.banty10 said:
As starters or sub?
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Ronaldo wasn't exactly a sub on Real Madrid until in the last season under Capello. On those seasons I mentioned he scored: 30, 31, 24 and 15 goals.

Ronaldo didn't had injury problems on Madrid. His injury problems were bad but they happened during his time on Inter (on the last 3 years he missed a year completely because of injuries while he missed more than half of the other 2 seasons because of it). Those injuries obviously might have affected his game since then, but he didn't miss many games on Madrid because of injuries.
 
Berginyon said:
Lionel Messi is a very good player but I feel like he has been the product of the Barca system and his subpar performances at the World Cups have proven my theory correct. Cristiano Ronaldo had to carry the Manchester United squad on his back during his days here, Messi never had to carry any team. If you take out Ronaldo and Messi and pit the best possible Portugal team over the last 8 years against the best possible Argentina team over the last 8 years. Argentina will win 4-0.
Look at a player like Klose who have clearly outperformed Messi to a shocking degree but because he's not a 'media darling' he never got the hype of Messi and will go down as one of the great under rated players of our generation. I'm not saying that Messi isn't a very good player, I'm saying that he isn't a GREAT player. There is tiers to that.

Great Players(over the last 5 years) Ronaldo/Xavi/Iniesta
Very Good Players(over the last 5 Years) Messi/Suarez/Robben/Bastin/

Messi is able to elevate himself into that first tier because of the system. The Barca system is build for a small agile mover like Messi to excel in. He wouldn't do well at all in a Manchester or Liverpool system. The system of hard ball. He's just not big enough from a physical standpoint. But I hope he does well at this World Cup. I always root for the little guys!
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But you love South America so Messi was obviously the greatest player of the last 5 years (obviously after Rafael Marquez).
 
Berginyon said:
Lionel Messi is a very good player but I feel like he has been the product of the Barca system and his 1.subpar performances at the World Cups have proven my theory correct. Cristiano Ronaldo had to carry the Manchester United squad on his back during his days here, 2.Messi never had to carry any team. If you take out Ronaldo and Messi and pit the best possible Portugal team over the last 8 years against the best possible Argentina team over the last 8 years. Argentina will win 4-0.
3.Look at a player like Klose who have clearly outperformed Messi to a shocking degree but because he's not a 'media darling' he never got the hype of Messi and will go down as one of the great under rated players of our generation. I'm not saying that Messi isn't a very good player, I'm saying that he isn't a GREAT player. There is tiers to that.

Great Players(over the last 5 years) Ronaldo/Xavi/Iniesta
Very Good Players(over the last 5 Years) Messi/Suarez/Robben/Bastin/

Messi is able to elevate himself into that first tier because of the system. The Barca system is build for a small agile mover like Messi to excel in. 4.He wouldn't do well at all in a Manchester or Liverpool system. The system of hard ball. He's just not big enough from a physical standpoint. But I hope he does well at this World Cup. I always root for the little guys!
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1. He's single-handedly won them two games.
2. Take out Messi's 50-60/per season goal tally. Who else could have done that for them? What would've they achieved?
3. Klose > Messi, clearly. What was everyone thinking?
The bolded part is the only thing that makes sense... in the parallel universe that you live in.
4. So Messi would not be able to replicate Sturridge or Rooney's 15-20 goals per season?

Your last sentence actually got to me though, well done :lol:
 
Berginyon said:
Lionel Messi is a very good player but I feel like he has been the product of the Barca system and his subpar performances at the World Cups have proven my theory correct. Cristiano Ronaldo had to carry the Manchester United squad on his back during his days here, Messi never had to carry any team. If you take out Ronaldo and Messi and pit the best possible Portugal team over the last 8 years against the best possible Argentina team over the last 8 years. Argentina will win 4-0.
Look at a player like Klose who have clearly outperformed Messi to a shocking degree but because he's not a 'media darling' he never got the hype of Messi and will go down as one of the great under rated players of our generation. I'm not saying that Messi isn't a very good player, I'm saying that he isn't a GREAT player. There is tiers to that.

Great Players(over the last 5 years) Ronaldo/Xavi/Iniesta
Very Good Players(over the last 5 Years) Messi/Suarez/Robben/Bastin/

Messi is able to elevate himself into that first tier because of the system. The Barca system is build for a small agile mover like Messi to excel in. He wouldn't do well at all in a Manchester or Liverpool system. The system of hard ball. He's just not big enough from a physical standpoint. But I hope he does well at this World Cup. I always root for the little guys!
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This is clearly wumming :D :D
 
Skorenzy said:
At least one prediction of mine has rung true though; Zabaleta isn't getting much, if any, support to defend his side and it's been extremely obvious. Bosnian goal came from his side, in his back if I'm not mistaken. And the Iran game was a complete horror show for him, got caught out by his marker 3-4 times which led to Iran having clear goalscoring opportunities and needing Romero to make some excellent saves and could/should have given away a penalty.
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A logical consequence of having the unbalanced Messi-Higuain-Agüero trio upfront who all naturally tend to occupy central positions. The left side has at least the highly energetic Di Maria covering defensively in his hybrid LM/LW role. On the right side none of Messi, Agüero, Higuain consistenly tracks back. For this reason I would be slightly surprised if Sabella played the "fantastic 4" from the beginning against better opponents. Although this formation is widely accepted as Argentina's standard formation, if I remember correctly Agüero hasn't actually featured that much from the beginning during the qualifiers (would have to look it up though) and came from the bench in friendlies against Germany and Brazil. I don't think Sabella is 100 % content with that front 4 and his 3 man defense experiments were only partly because of injuries.

Argentina also remain fragile when defending set pieces. The sort of half field cross for Müller's opening goal in 2010 is already troubling them again this year. I hadn't really noticed this weakness before, during the qualifiers.

France would trouble them the most in this World Cup in my opinion. Playing counterattacking football themselves which wouldn't play to Argentina's strengths, strong left side with Benzema and Evra and overall a tall and physical team that can punish on set pieces. Will most likely not meet however.
 
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Berginyon said:
Lionel Messi is a very good player but I feel like he has been the product of the Barca system and his subpar performances at the World Cups have proven my theory correct. Cristiano Ronaldo had to carry the Manchester United squad on his back during his days here, Messi never had to carry any team. If you take out Ronaldo and Messi and pit the best possible Portugal team over the last 8 years against the best possible Argentina team over the last 8 years. Argentina will win 4-0.
Look at a player like Klose who have clearly outperformed Messi to a shocking degree but because he's not a 'media darling' he never got the hype of Messi and will go down as one of the great under rated players of our generation. I'm not saying that Messi isn't a very good player, I'm saying that he isn't a GREAT player. There is tiers to that.

Great Players(over the last 5 years) Ronaldo/Xavi/Iniesta
Very Good Players(over the last 5 Years) Messi/Suarez/Robben/Bastin/

Messi is able to elevate himself into that first tier because of the system. The Barca system is build for a small agile mover like Messi to excel in. He wouldn't do well at all in a Manchester or Liverpool system. The system of hard ball. He's just not big enough from a physical standpoint. But I hope he does well at this World Cup. I always root for the little guys!
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daafbdca40fc1fbb3601e5f244372438.gif
 
Bole Top said:
this will probably sound both strange and crazy to some of you, but I'd actually argue that Messi never really was surrounded with many trully world class players (I know, that term again). he also never really worked under great manager (besides pep). it seems that Barca's recent domination led people to believe that they were full of expensive superstars on every position (like Real were back in galactico era), but that really wasn't the case in my opinion. it seemed that Barca were declining after we eliminated them in cl semifinal, they were about 20 points behind Real in la liga and if I'm not mistaken, Xavi even wanted to leave. but then Pep arrived and the rest is history. it's easy to say NOW that Messi has/had perfect support because Guardiola's system brought the best out of them, but how many of you would have swapped Busquets for Makelele or Pedro for Figo in pre-Guardiola era? I must admit, I haven't even heard of them untill Pep arrived, let alone thought they were better than them. even now, most people would still say that Zidane is better than Iniesta. name for name, in my opinion, Barcelona never really had the better first 11 than Real. instead, they had perfect system for Messi, Iniesta and Xavi and that was that made them so dominant. I doubt Pedro would score 45 goals in two season had he played for United, I never rated Valdes, Pique was never as good as Vidic or Terry but was perfect for their system, playing Mascherano in defence would look silly in any other system etc etc. they were all good players, but individually they weren't even close to players that Real had in galactico era. what I want say is, Messi would probably have much better support if he went to Bayern or Real because in my opinion, they have better teams than Barca. the only difference between those teams is, of course, Messi and even that probably isn't enough anymore.
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Messi's supportcast was basically the Spain team that won 2 Euro Championships and a World Cup without having a Messi or anything close to him in their team. I'd say that's as good as a supportcast can get.
 
Berginyon said:
Lionel Messi is a very good player but I feel like he has been the product of the Barca system and his subpar performances at the World Cups have proven my theory correct. Cristiano Ronaldo had to carry the Manchester United squad on his back during his days here, Messi never had to carry any team. If you take out Ronaldo and Messi and pit the best possible Portugal team over the last 8 years against the best possible Argentina team over the last 8 years. Argentina will win 4-0.
Look at a player like Klose who have clearly outperformed Messi to a shocking degree but because he's not a 'media darling' he never got the hype of Messi and will go down as one of the great under rated players of our generation. I'm not saying that Messi isn't a very good player, I'm saying that he isn't a GREAT player. There is tiers to that.

Great Players(over the last 5 years) Ronaldo/Xavi/Iniesta
Very Good Players(over the last 5 Years) Messi/Suarez/Robben/Bastin/

Messi is able to elevate himself into that first tier because of the system. The Barca system is build for a small agile mover like Messi to excel in. He wouldn't do well at all in a Manchester or Liverpool system. The system of hard ball. He's just not big enough from a physical standpoint. But I hope he does well at this World Cup. I always root for the little guys!
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Yes im sure that guy cant take a foul, i mean he always dive.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt4WoVQ0PSw
Great laughs tough, saying that Klose has outperformerd Messi.
 
Cristiano_RAFC said:
Messi's supportcast was basically the Spain team that won 2 Euro Championships and a World Cup without having a Messi or anything close to him in their team. I'd say that's as good as a supportcast can get.
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I know that but like I've said, it's easy to say that NOW. until Guardiola arrived (2007-2008), no one dared say that those two are better support than Zidane, Figo, Beckham, Makelele etc. and it's not like they were young and inexperienced. Xavi was 28, 29 when Spain and Barcelona started to dominate football and Iniesta was 25, 26. they were never used as a "comfort zone" argument before that, only in Messi's case. also, I've never heard anyone saying something similar about Ronaldo's support; "Yeah, he's good, but he has Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Kaka, Emerson etc. so he plays in his comfort zone." I've never heard anything like that being said about him, but I hear it almost everytime when people want to bash Messi. it's just silly.
 
What? You never heard people say Brazilian Ronaldo was surrounded with great star players?

Now you have.
 
Bole Top said:
I know that but like I've said, it's easy to say that NOW. until Guardiola arrived (2007-2008), no one dared say that those two are better support than Zidane, Figo, Beckham, Makelele etc. and it's not like they were young and inexperienced. Xavi was 28, 29 when Spain and Barcelona started to dominate football and Iniesta was 25, 26. they were never used as a "comfort zone" argument before that, only in Messi's case. also, I've never heard anyone saying something similar about Ronaldo's support; "Yeah, he's good, but he has Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Kaka, Emerson etc. so he plays in his comfort zone." I've never heard anything like that being said about him, but I hear it almost everytime when people want to bash Messi. it's just silly.
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You mean untill Aragones started utilizing Xavi and Iniesta well enough to make them the core players for Spain, in Euro 2008?
And Pep became Barca's coach in 2008/2009 season.
 
T.banty10 said:
You mean the bullshit lies you formulated, which you said it was my post?
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No bullshit is just bullshit. Zidane had an average supposrting staff, Totti more talented than Messi, Brazilian Ronaldo being a crock (on context we were talking for his time at Madrid) etc. There are opinions, there are wrong opinions and there is bullshit. Your posts so far have been on the third category.

And no, I am not one of Messi fanboys, not at all.
 
T.banty10 said:
You mean untill Aragones started utilizing Xavi and Iniesta well enough to make them the core players for Spain, in Euro 2008?
And Pep became Barca's coach in 2008/2009 season.
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yessss, you're right about that. still, it doesn't change anything. those two could have won the world cup in Brazil and majority of people would still rate Zidane higher. we even had a thread about that and most people said Zidane was better than Iniesta ever was.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/zidane-and-iniesta.362379/

funny thing, some say that Iniesta played with better players and it was easier for him and here I'm reading that everything was easier for Messi because he played with Iniesta :lol:
 
Ronaldo hasn't outperformed Messi in the World Cup prior to this, in fact he was worse....thus I don't get how he's great and messi only very good on that conclusive evidence. Beatiful wum.
 
Revan said:
No bullshit is just bullshit. Zidane had an average supposrting staff, Totti more talented than Messi, Brazilian Ronaldo being a crock (on context we were talking for his time at Madrid) etc. There are opinions, there are wrong opinions and there is bullshit. Your posts so far have been on the third category.

And no, I am not one of Messi fanboys, not at all.
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this is how it works. someone says "Peter Crouch was a better player than Messi", if you don't agree, you are a messi fanboi
 
marcosdeto said:
this is how it works. someone says "Peter Crouch was a better player than Messi", if you don't agree, you are a messi fanboi
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See your point Marcos but it works both ways really. I'm on the fence when reading similar discussion but the level of hysterical Messi love is appaling at times. The man can do no wrong really.

Revan, are you from Israel?
 
marcosdeto said:
this is how it works. someone says "Peter Crouch was a better player than Messi", if you don't agree, you are a messi fanboi
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Yep. Pretty much every poster here is either 'a Messi fanboy and Ronaldo hater' or 'a Messi hater and a Ronaldo fanboy'.

I seriously struggle to think that people who think like this can be more than 15 years old.

Between, t.banty might think that Peter Crouch was better than Messi. And more talented, after all he didn't had as a good supporting crew and he was very tall so had trouble to dribble. If he was only as short as Messi he would have been the best dribbler ever.
 
Tomuś said:
See your point Marcos but it works both ways really. I'm on the fence when reading similar discussion but the level of hysterical Messi love is appaling at times. The man can do no wrong really.

Revan, are you from Israel?
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Well i don't know where you have been looking but i read and hear negatives all the time...

What's wrong with a player being praised anyway? What has he done bad that should be mentioned?
 
Revan said:
Yep. Pretty much every poster here is either 'a Messi fanboy and Ronaldo hater' or 'a Messi hater and a Ronaldo fanboy'.

I seriously struggle to think that people who think like this can be more than 15 years old.

Between, t.banty might think that Peter Crouch was better than Messi. And more talented, after all he didn't had as a good supporting crew and he was very tall so had trouble to dribble. If he was only as short as Messi he would have been the best dribbler ever.
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:lol::lol::lol:
 
Tomuś said:
See your point Marcos but it works both ways really. I'm on the fence when reading similar discussion but the level of hysterical Messi love is appaling at times. The man can do no wrong really.

Revan, are you from Israel?
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No, why?

About the first point, there are a lot of people who despite like Messi still criticize him. Anyway, saying that Totti was more talented than him is simply nonsense.
 
Revan said:
No, why?

About the first point, there are a lot of people who despite like Messi still criticize him. Anyway, saying that Totti was more talented than him is simply nonsense.
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Aww, nevermind. I get a bit paranoic with my syntax/morphology/phonology researches and whatnot and I thought your lexicon and computational elements were reminiscent of the Israelis.

Just for the sake of clarity - all of those bits you're arguing over with the other chaps are ridiculous, yes. It's just that Messi gets a free ride everytime he has a subdued game and these were not as few and far between as some would have thought in the last couple of years. Still brilliant and I prefer his all-round game to Ronaldo's by some margin.
 
Tomuś said:
Aww, nevermind. I get a bit paranoic with my syntax/morphology/phonology researches and whatnot and I thought your lexicon and computational elements were reminiscent of the Israelis.
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Studying computer science causes some things on other spheres of life. Probably

Tomuś said:
Just for the sake of clarity - all of those bits you're arguing over with the other chaps are ridiculous, yes. It's just that Messi gets a free ride everytime he has a subdued game and these were not as few and far between as some would have thought in the last couple of years. Still brilliant and I prefer his all-round game to Ronaldo's by some margin.
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Messi gets heavily criticized here. Just look at the game versus Bosna when he had a poor first half and how a lot of people (well, me too) criticized him for not playing well. I think that the comments on both him and Ronaldo are spot on. Until someone starts comparing them, belittling the achievement's of one of them, exageratting those of the other etc and makes the thread generally shit and impossible to read.
 
sammyvine said:
Well i don't know where you have been looking but i read and hear negatives all the time...

What's wrong with a player being praised anyway? What has he done bad that should be mentioned?
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What's wrong with saying he had a bad game when in fact he had? I have no problems with all the praise etc. I just don't like the bullying of those who are more attentive to Messi's shortcomings. As far as the current discussion goes, the Messi lovers (let's called them like that just for the purpose of comparison) are spot on and Messi haters are having a shocker. For some reason you assumed I'm getting on his back whereas it's the exact opposite basically.
 
Tomuś said:
See your point Marcos but it works both ways really. I'm on the fence when reading similar discussion but the level of hysterical Messi love is appaling at times. The man can do no wrong really.
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mate. i havent seen fans that prefer ronaldo -which is a very valid assumption- being called "ronaldo fanbois", even when in fact, if you read ronaldo's thread, they are comparing his assist against USA to Pele´s and Maradonas world cups, when the truth is that Portugal is more likely to return home after next game
 
Revan said:
No bullshit is just bullshit. Zidane had an average supposrting staff, Totti more talented than Messi, Brazilian Ronaldo being a crock (on context we were talking for his time at Madrid) etc. There are opinions, there are wrong opinions and there is bullshit. Your posts so far have been on the third category.

And no, I am not one of Messi fanboys, not at all.
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You forgot where I said in compared to Messi? That was exactly one of your formulated lie?
And if saying Totti has a better control on the ball without needing the pace and quick burst Messi need is bullshit, then let it be.
If saying Totti never had the supporting cast Messi had, for him to archive his worldclass potential, then let it be.
If saying Totti has a better style of play than Messi is bullshit, then let it be.
All in all, you can call it whatever you like and infact, build a Messi's statue in your bedroom. However, it doesn't remove a hair strand from me.
 
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