Mason Mount | Confirmed

[Annihilate Now!]

£50m is a fair offer IMO - honestly think we should walk away at this point... don't think we will though.

No more then £55m - we need to start putting our foot down over this shit.

 

[El Jefe]

Thinking we got demolished away vs tougher teams because of midfield balance of the equivalent of Bruno/Fred/casemiro is completely missing what happened in those games. Mental blocks, being useless at playing out from the back and useless at CF was the reason. Not to mention we actually didn't play that midfield in those games. We used Eriksen far more, or casemiro just missed games through injury so McTominay was in (but even so, we weren't getting killed with teams getting in behind our midfield defensively).

It was mainly because of how EtH structures us in midfield.

Our CM whether Fred or Eriksen push up high and wide especially in the case of Eriksen, and so does the fullback on that side to create overloads. Often Casemiro is tasked with covering so much ground if we turn the ball over and he can't cover open spaces as well as his younger days. This isn't limited to us but other teams have players more adept at mitigating this potential weakness.

To play the way we do we need to be elite at possession football which we clearly aren't. Or we need fast and powerful players to retrieve the ball when in compromising situations. This is why Caicedo or Rice is the type we need IMO. Ten Hag's style will leave us vulnerable as long as we aren't a possession team. Mount as a CM doesn't change much for us.

Mount is an AM for me or furthest forward CM and I hope that's what he'll be coming here as.

 

[bosnian_red]

Mount in for Fred doesn't solve that issue, not sure why you've changed it to Eriksen to fit your argument.

Eriksen started most of our games. Fred played when Eriksen was injured but was mostly a bench player. That wasn't an issue during that time. Mount is much closer to Fred off the ball than he is to Eriksen. I don't think we have off the ball issues with a midfield of Mount, Bruno and Casemiro.

On the ball, Mount is on the whole pretty similar to Eriksen too. Better at some (carrying especially), worse at others. He's much closer to Eriksen in that than he is to Fred. So yes, Mount does solve the issue of Eriksen not being able to cover ground and Fred being inconsistent as hell on the ball when he did play.

 

[iato89]

Finall offer of 50+5m and thats it

 

[redIndianDevil]

Mount is an excellent presser. As is Bruno, he just spent most of the past 2 years covering for Ronaldo and his midfield partner being useless at it. Get a CF who can press and a midfield of Mount/Bruno/casemiro and there is 0 reason why we can't become an extremely effective counter pressing side. Get a goalkeeper like Onana and suddenly we can also play against opposition teams pressing us. Then it's up to Ten Hag to coach us effectively to press as a team, and to play against the press. But it's a very good starting point. All 3 of CF, GK and CM are vital for it though.

I don't think EtH sets his teams to press as much as Klopp's and its not due to a lack of GK or personnel. Klopp in his first season didn't have a ball playing GK or good CBs but still made his team into a good pressing unit.

 

[bosnian_red]

It was mainly because of how EtH structures us in midfield.

Our CM whether Fred or Eriksen push up high and wide especially in the case of Eriksen, and so does the fullback on that side to create overloads. Often Casemiro is tasked with covering so much ground if we turn the ball over and he can't cover open spaces as well as his younger days. This isn't limited to us but other teams have players more adept at mitigating this potential weakness.

To play the way we do we need to be elite at possession football which we clearly aren't. Or we need fast and powerful players to retrieve the ball when in compromising situations. This is why Caicedo or Rice is the type we need IMO. Ten Hag's style will leave us vulnerable as long as we aren't a possession team. Mount as a CM doesn't change much for us.

Mount is an AM for me or furthest forward CM and I hope that's what he'll be coming here as.

I guess we'll find out. For me we need a CM like Mount far more than Rice or Caicedo who only have 1 role in a ten hag side - and that's taken up by Casemiro. And I think we are heading towards being a counter pressing side which ten hag was working towards last season as well.

And yeah there are aspects that ten hag will have to adjust. A lot of it becomes easier when he has a better CM, better GK and better CF to both press more effectively and deal with opposition press better.

 

[Pirlo'sBeard]

We should walk away.

He's not a £50m player.

 

[zaafi]

We didn't struggle defensively because of Fred, remove Fred from the midfield and replace him with Mount, you are more likely to struggle defensively in midfield. Mount can press but he isn't close to Fred defensively in the 8 role, in terms of tackling and being a Kante level pest.

Running around doesn't necessarily mean you're good defensively. Fred is no Kanté. He has bad positioning, frequently miscontrols the ball and loses possession often. Is that what you call someone defensively sound?
His best work happens between the attacking third and the middle. That being said, he's not a clever reader of the game and does not anticipate what the opponent is about to do. He's a chaser and a nuisance to the opponent, but he's extremely easy to play around and dribble through if the opponent has a defence/midfield comfortable on the ball. He is also quite weak and loses most of his 50/50 duels.

I don't get this, really. Our best performances and midfield trio came from playing Casemiro, Eriksen and Bruno. If we then buy Mount who is an upgrade on Eriksen, particularly in terms of work rate, strength, tenacity, defensively and pace, how exactly can you come to the conclusion we're going to do worse and get cut through easily?

 

[AjaxCunian]

Realistically we won't seriously challenge for the title next season, we are a few steps away from that. But building towards being an elite counter pressing side is definitely the path for us right now, and it's a team that can challenge for the CL. I don't think it will have us be dominated in big games, I think it helps us loads as we'll be able to deal with the press better right from the back (goalkeeper) and will be able to press far better ourselves (midfield and CF). If anything, those are exactly the games that Mount would help in. It turns them into more even games, less likely for us to be dominated as we'd be able to coordinate a press well and make it harder for the opposition to play while also making it harder for them to press us. Both of those were huge weak points in those big games. We had an uncoordinated press as Eriksen was a bit useless at it (to add to the front 3 that was mostly available being a bit useless at it), and de Gea is hopeless with the ball at his feet (and going long was hopeless as our attack couldn't deal with long balls or hold up the ball).

It will likely improve us from this season sure, but I feel like there is a maximum with this underdog approach of play. The teams that win leagues are usually the teams that take control and dictate matches themselves. Maybe in this, that will still be the case against 80% of the opposition, but it is also not miles different from the kind of idea Ole had. Which I was hoping that we'd move away from. In theory it works, in reality it might work a few games but these teams never structurally win for multiple years in the last decade.

 

[sullydnl]

Mount in for Fred doesn't solve that issue, it makes it worse. Not sure why you've changed it to Eriksen to fit your argument.

Presumably because Eriksen has been favoured ahead of Fred all season, including in big games. He's the player we need to upgrade in terms of pressing, physicality, defensive work, etc.

Which Mount certainly does, given he presses at approximately the rate Fred does and obviously offers far more running and defensive workrate than Eriksen can.

 

[Drifter]

Five million too much. Should be the last offer.

 

[luke511]

Eriksen started most of our games. Fred played when Eriksen was injured but was mostly a bench player. That wasn't an issue during that time. Mount is much closer to Fred off the ball than he is to Eriksen. I don't think we have off the ball issues with a midfield of Mount, Bruno and Casemiro.

On the ball, Mount is on the whole pretty similar to Eriksen too. Better at some (carrying especially), worse at others. He's much closer to Eriksen in that than he is to Fred. So yes, Mount does solve the issue of Eriksen not being able to cover ground and Fred being inconsistent as hell on the ball when he did play.

We'll agree to disagree on that one. Easier games no, harder games yes.

 

[redIndianDevil]

Look at how cheap Kovacic got sold for despite being a similar position. If Chelsea wanted they could have set his price higher as well but they know City aren't desperate for midfielders and will definitely walk away. Kovacic is a older and not English I know but we are going to end up paying double.

 

[Dannn411]

Is this true? So many folks saying this on this thread. Who can United get that is “so much more for so much less?” And for how much do you think we can get them?

Kone, Kephren Thuram, Max Caqueret can all be gotten in and around that £30m-£35m range and would be significant upgrades over Mount in the exact same position. Mount is more of an attacking mid than a central mid. Same with Eriksen. What we need is a central mid with presence who can control games and win battles in midfield and join attacks when needed. Mount will only give you one of those qualities in spades. Those other guys will give you at least 2 of the 3 qualities. So why is Mount costing way more?

 

[Redbandito]

We should walk away.

He's not a £50m player.

He’s easily that level of player. The only questions are whether we should be paying that going into the last year of his contract, while we have a limited budget and whether he is the right fit for our squad.

 

[bosnian_red]

I don't think EtH sets his teams to press as much as Klopp's and its not due to a lack of GK or personnel. Klopp in his first season didn't have a ball playing GK or good CBs but still made his team into a good pressing unit.

We had good pressing periods too.

It's also pretty impossible to be a quality pressing side when you play every 3 days and when every important player in your team made it to the quarter finals of a world cup smacked in November/December. You also aren't going to be much of a top pressing team when you have Eriksen, Rashford, Sancho/martial/Ronaldo.

A goalkeeper doesn't help your press. It helps you deal with the opposition press.

Ten Hag might not go quite as much as Klopp, but he builds far more to a Klopp style than he does to a Pep style. He's his own guy, he'll make adjustment, but nobody should be expecting us to transition into a Pep/Arteta style team, while targets that make sense for a Klopp team should make far more sense for us with ten hag.

 

[zaafi]

Mount in for Fred doesn't solve that issue, it makes it worse. Not sure why you've changed it to Eriksen to fit your argument.

This doesn't make sense. Mount replaces Eriksen, not Fred. There'a a reason Fred barely played.

 

[Redbandito]

Kone, Kephren Thuram, Max Caqueret can all be gotten in and around that £30m-£35m range and would be significant upgrades over Mount in the exact same position. Mount is more of an attacking mid than a central mid. Same with Eriksen. What we need is a central mid with presence who can control games and win battles in midfield and join attacks when needed. Mount will only give you one of those qualities in spades. Those other guuss will give you at least 2 of the 3 qualities. So why is Mount costing way more?

For starters, I don’t know that they could actually be gotten for that price tag, because until United is linked, price tags always start off cheaper. The second we get in for a player, the price tag jumps. Second, while you may argue that those players are better fits, we are going to have to agree to disagree that they are significant upgrades over Mount. I rate Mount highly, as do several coaches with fantastic track records.

 

[bosnian_red]

It will likely improve us from this season sure, but I feel like there is a maximum with this underdog approach of play. The teams that win leagues are usually the teams that take control and dictate matches themselves. Maybe in this, that will still be the case against 80% of the opposition, but it is also not miles different from the kind of idea Ole had. Which I was hoping that we'd move away from. In theory it works, in reality it might work a few games but these teams never structurally win for multiple years in the last decade.

It's extremely different from Ole, come on. There are a million ways to play football, it isn't just "go full Pep" or "go full Ole". There are tons of nuances to it. You can't beat Pep and City by trying to copy them. It just won't happen. You have to be different to them, just like Klopp was (and even he only won the title once).

Ten Hag will build a side that can challenge for the CL from a performance level perspective, but yes you need both luck and incredible consistency for the league that is really hard to beat City unless they have a down year (and you have a lot go your way).

 

[redIndianDevil]

Running around doesn't necessarily mean you're good defensively. Fred is no Kanté. He has bad positioning, frequently miscontrols the ball and loses possession often. Is that what you call someone defensively sound?
His best work happens between the attacking third and the middle. That being said, he's not a clever reader of the game and does not anticipate what the opponent is about to do. He's a chaser and a nuisance to the opponent, but he's extremely easy to play around and dribble through if the opponent has a defence/midfield comfortable on the ball. He is also quite weak and loses most of his 50/50 duels.

I don't get this, really. Our best performances and midfield trio came from playing Casemiro, Eriksen and Bruno. If we then buy Mount who is an upgrade on Eriksen, particularly in terms of work rate, strength, tenacity, defensively and pace, how exactly can you come to the conclusion we're going to do worse and get cut through easily?

This applies to Mount as well. He may be better on the ball but defensively he is pretty much the same.

 

[harms]

A goalkeeper doesn't help your press. It helps you deal with the opposition press.

Yes he does. You can't push your defensive line past a certain point when you have a keeper that's glued to a goal line.

 

[tomaldinho1]

£50m is a fair offer IMO - honestly think we should walk away at this point... don't think we will though.

No more then £55m - we need to start putting our foot down over this shit.

Agreed. Attention should be turned elsewhere, I don't think he makes a massive difference to the first XI anyway - Onana and a ST please

 

[luke511]

Running around doesn't necessarily mean you're good defensively. Fred is no Kanté. He has bad positioning, frequently miscontrols the ball and loses possession often. Is that what you call someone defensively sound?
His best work happens between the attacking third and the middle. That being said, he's not a clever reader of the game and does not anticipate what the opponent is about to do. He's a chaser and a nuisance to the opponent, but he's extremely easy to play around and dribble through if the opponent has a defence/midfield comfortable on the ball. He is also quite weak and loses most of his 50/50 duels.

I don't get this, really. Our best performances and midfield trio came from playing Casemiro, Eriksen and Bruno. If we then buy Mount who is an upgrade on Eriksen, particularly in terms of work rate, strength, tenacity, defensively and pace, how exactly can you come to the conclusion we're going to do worse and get cut through easily?

Eriksen has been a big problem in our midfield in the away games, it took Ten Hag a while to realise Fred is better suited for the occasion. The argument is not to do with how we play at home, or our "best performances", it's to do with how we can improve our performances away from home. Mount is an improvement on Eriksen's off the ball work, and Fred's on the ball work, but not Fred's off the ball work and this what the debate is based around, us more likely to see us struggle defensively with Mount as an 8 over Fred in the away games.

 

[bosnian_red]

Yes he does. You can't push your defensive line past a certain point when you have a keeper that's glued to a goal line.

Fair, de Gea is more an exception to that and Liverpool pre Allison still had keepers who tried to sweep.

 

[AjaxCunian]

It's extremely different from Ole, come on. There are a million ways to play football, it isn't just "go full Pep" or "go full Ole". There are tons of nuances to it. You can't beat Pep and City by trying to copy them. It just won't happen. You have to be different to them, just like Klopp was (and even he only won the title once).

Ten Hag will build a side that can challenge for the CL from a performance level perspective, but yes you need both luck and incredible consistency for the league that is really hard to beat City unless they have a down year (and you have a lot go your way).

Also not untrue, I'd have more faith in what Arteta is trying to do than this path though if this really is what Erik Ten Hag is going it. There are multiple ways to play dominant, attacking football but this seems an underdog approach. More Pochettino like, which I never rated. Might work for a season, but it doesn't win on the long-term.

 

[Dannn411]

For starters, I don’t know that they could actually be gotten for that price tag, because until United is linked, price tags always start off cheaper. The second we get in for a player, the price tag jumps. Second, while you may argue that those players are better fits, we are going to have to agree to disagree that they are significant upgrades over Mount. I rate Mount highly, as do several coaches with fantastic track records.

To be fair you're probably right on the United tax bit but I don't think any of those clubs remotely approach the £65m Chelsea is asking for Mount. And the reason why I say they are upgrades over Mount is because they are ideal fits for what we are need. Mount is going to be another case of square peg in round hole.

 

[bosnian_red]

Eriksen has been a big problem in our midfield in the away games, it took Ten Hag a while to realise Fred is better suited for the occasion. The argument is not to do with how we play at home, or our "best performances", it's to do with how we can improve our performances away from home. Mount is an improvement on Eriksen's off the ball work, and Fred's on the ball work, but not Fred's off the ball work and this what the debate is based around, us more likely to see us struggle defensively with Mount as an 8 over Fred in the away games.

Fred barely started our big away games.. and in those that he did, our struggles didn't come from us lacking legs in midfield or lack of defensive solidity in midfield.

 

[padzilla]

If we get Rabiot for free and Mount for 50 odd million, would that be good business for getting those two in for a combined price of 50 odd million?

 

[redIndianDevil]

We had good pressing periods too.

It's also pretty impossible to be a quality pressing side when you play every 3 days and when every important player in your team made it to the quarter finals of a world cup smacked in November/December. You also aren't going to be much of a top pressing team when you have Eriksen, Rashford, Sancho/martial/Ronaldo.

A goalkeeper doesn't help your press. It helps you deal with the opposition press.

Ten Hag might not go quite as much as Klopp, but he builds far more to a Klopp style than he does to a Pep style. He's his own guy, he'll make adjustment, but nobody should be expecting us to transition into a Pep/Arteta style team, while targets that make sense for a Klopp team should make far more sense for us with ten hag.

A GK most definitely does. If your keeper is not comfortable playing the sweeper role there is no way your team can press higher.

Also we never pressed as much as Liverpool or even Arsenal for that matter. It could be down to fixture load as well but I don't see us becoming a pressing side with EtH at all. Any manager who puts pressing as a priority get their teams to press almost instantly - Klopp, Bielsa etc. I haven't seen that with EtH.

 

[luke511]

Fred barely started our big away games.. and in those that he did, our struggles didn't come from us lacking legs in midfield or lack of defensive solidity in midfield.

Exactly my point remove Fred for Mount and you’re more likely to struggle defensively in midfield.

 

[The Boy]

I don't think EtH sets his teams to press as much as Klopp's and its not due to a lack of GK or personnel. Klopp in his first season didn't have a ball playing GK or good CBs but still made his team into a good pressing unit.

I think it's difficult to compare, that first season. Though Klopp came in October, the manic pressing we know them for now didn't really work that well at all. With players like Sturridge and Countinho leading the press, they were incredibly erratic and finished either 7th or 8th I think. Your first season under EtH looks alot better than Klopp's first season.

Also unless the right players are already there, like the set up De Zerbi walked into at Brighton, it's very difficult for a manager to come straight in and play their preferred system. I think you'll see United evolve over the next couple of seasons as EtH gets the squad he feels he needs to implement his game fully, he was never going to be able to do that with a mix of predominantly Jose's and Ole's players.

 

[redIndianDevil]

If we get Rabiot for free and Mount for 50 odd million, would that be good business for getting those two in for a combined price of 50 odd million?

We could still do the same for 30m if we weren't so desperate and asked Chelsea to feck themselves. Why should we aid a rival by forking out 50m for a player in the last year of his contract.

 

[sullydnl]

Eriksen has been a big problem in our midfield in the away games, it took Ten Hag a while to realise Fred is better suited for the occasion. The argument is not to do with how we play at home, or our "best performances", it's to do with how we can improve our performances away from home. Mount is an improvement on Eriksen's off the ball work, and Fred's on the ball work, but not Fred's off the ball work and this what the debate is based around, us more likely to see us struggle defensively with Mount as an 8 over Fred in the away games.

You seem to be imagining that ETH has been picking Fred ahead of Eriksen in tougher games and therefore Fred is who we need to improve on to be better defensively.

But that hasn't been happening. Eriksen has been favoured ahead of Fred all season, including in tougher games. Which is why Eriksen is who we need to improve on to be better defensively, not Fred.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Yes he does. You can't push your defensive line past a certain point when you have a keeper that's glued to a goal line.

Hence the below. Def Line is defined as an FYI as were the average of your defensive actions occur & the distance to your goal.

 

[redIndianDevil]

Exactly my point remove Fred for Mount and you’re more likely to struggle defensively in midfield.

I think you rate Fred defensively higher than Mount but most people who like Mount think he is equal to Fred defensively and much better in attack.

 

[zaafi]

Kone, Kephren Thuram, Max Caqueret can all be gotten in and around that £30m-£35m range and would be significant upgrades over Mount in the exact same position. Mount is more of an attacking mid than a central mid. Same with Eriksen. What we need is a central mid with presence who can control games and win battles in midfield and join attacks when needed. Mount will only give you one of those qualities in spades. Those other guys will give you at least 2 of the 3 qualities. So why is Mount costing way more?

How exactly are any of these players significant upgrades on Mount? Talk about underrating a player because he plays for a rival.

I mean, have you even seen these players play regularly or did you just look up a 10 minute compilation of them? Because if you think these players control the game, you're incredibly wrong or just assuming they do.
Personally, I like Kouadio Koné, but his passing game is not strong. He drives forward with the ball, and I agree that we need a player like that as well, but they also have to be able to do much more than that in our midfield.

Playing in Bundesliga and Ligue 1 is also vastly different to Premier League.

 

[croadyman]

He's just not as important as getting Onana & Kane,surely we can find a CM cheaper

 

[redIndianDevil]

I think it's difficult to compare, that first season. Though Klopp came in October, the manic pressing we know them for now didn't really work that well at all. With players like Sturridge and Countinho leading the press, they were incredibly erratic and finished either 7th or 8th I think. Your first season under EtH looks alot better than Klopp's first season.

Also unless the right players are already there, like the set up De Zerbi walked into at Brighton, it's very difficult for a manager to come straight in and play their preferred system. I think you'll see United evolve over the next couple of seasons as EtH gets the squad he feels he needs to implement his game fully, he was never going to be able to do that with a mix of predominantly Jose's and Ole's players.

I'm not saying Klopp's first season at Liverpool was better than our current season. That Liverpool team didn't have the personnel to play a pressing style but still put more emphasis on pressing. For Klopp that is an absolute priority but for EtH that's not the case.

 

[El Jefe]

I don't get this, really. Our best performances and midfield trio came from playing Casemiro, Eriksen and Bruno. If we then buy Mount who is an upgrade on Eriksen, particularly in terms of work rate, strength, tenacity, defensively and pace, how exactly can you come to the conclusion we're going to do worse and get cut through easily?

We don't get worse but its a marginal improvement on the whole.

Eriksen is a snail off the ball but in deeper areas of the pitch he uses the ball better than Mount. Better passer and has better range too.

What Mount adds defensively and through pressing isn't that much of an upgrade because Mount's best work is still done higher up the pitch.

We will have a lot of the same weaknesses defensively with Mount in place of Eriksen. Mount isn't strong enough to be winning duels in the heart of midfield but he's excellent at closing gaps and forcing turnovers in the attacking third.

 

[luke511]

You seem to be imagining that ETH has been picking Fred ahead of Eriksen in tougher games and therefore Fred is who we need to improve on to be better defensively.

But that hasn't been happening. Eriksen has been favoured ahead of Fred all season, including in tougher games. Which is why Eriksen is who we need to improve on to be better defensively, not Fred.

This doesn't make sense. Mount replaces Eriksen, not Fred. There'a a reason Fred barely played.

The debate started off talking about Fred’s involvement as an 8, not Eriksen, that’s why the point is revolved around him vs Mount.