If they really want to shake things up, I think a dark and gritty retelling of Batman would accomplish that. I always thought that character was ripe for that kind of storytelling.
Film Martin Scorsese - Marvel movies are 'not cinema'
- Thread starter Sweet Square
- Start date
I wonder why these changes happen. People aren't suddenly much dumber or more impatient. (Everybody for millennia has said that sort of thing about the next generation, but it's virtually never true.) I wonder if it's rather that the film industry keeps finetuning its template, and has learned over time that films where everything is either cool, a quip, or has meme potential sell better?
A Casper the friendly ghost film where we get to see Casper die in a super gory scene would be pretty great. Have him spend the rest of the film fecking things up Grudge style and honestly I smell an oscar
Agree that it's nothing to do with the intelligence of the audience. I think there's a few things at play.
I think character and genre tropes becoming established over time and being continually reused over the years has cut out some the need for filmmakers to really put effort into helping you understand who characters are. And then with TV and the internet more actors are household names and casting has become a great way to signify who a character is to the audience before the film has started (e.g - I've seen Parks & Rec so I don't need much to grasp that Chris Pratt's Star Lord is going to be goofy and annoying but ultimately good at heart). And then at the same time I think as technology moved on it became easier for filmmakers to wow audience with effects and explosions etc. instead of plot twists and clever dialogue. Budgets getting bigger also meant that could afford to put more action in and they didn't need cheaper, dialogue-heavy scenes to fill time in between the expensive set-pieces.
I think Marvel's success has come partially from having name recognition and a massive back catalogue of material to draw from, but mostly from this general trend of media companies getting very good at gathering data and using it to design media that gets people hooked (whether it's films or social media apps). They've done their audience research and settled on this blend of action, Whedon-esque snippy dialogue and characters arcs people respond to. But equally, they've looked at how the human brain reacts to stimuli on a physiological level and a big part of their template is structuring films, arcs and individual scenes to deliver pay-offs which hit the right brain chemistry buttons at the right times to keep people engaged.
I think that's ultimately what's driven the last 15-20 years of blockbusters. Marvel cracking this code over the course of a decade and everyone else scrambling to replicate it.
the thing is, certain blockbuster(s) coming out once a year shouldn't be an excuse for others not to come up with fresh ideas. I quite liked The Man from Earth for example, Sunset Limited as well. such simple, but interesting movies shouldn't be a problem for decent writer and they don't cost anything. where are they these days?
but it's not just them. I used to enjoy horror movies in the past, but these days they're literally amateur movies. the whole genre is basically finished, but decline started way before Marvel movies became so popular. in general, I feel there is a serious lack of effort in Hollywood, completely unrelated to whether superheros are popular or not.
but it's not just them. I used to enjoy horror movies in the past, but these days they're literally amateur movies. the whole genre is basically finished, but decline started way before Marvel movies became so popular. in general, I feel there is a serious lack of effort in Hollywood, completely unrelated to whether superheros are popular or not.
Whilst your hypothesis is quite detailed and could be true, can it not be as simple as Marvel has done a good job of crafting fun (for the most part) stories set in a cinematic world that people are engaged in?
I remember when the Harry Potter books got a lot of hate for adults reading them, with critics saying its for kids, the writing is poor etc. Completely missing the point that the world of Harry Potter in the books was built really well and many people juat enjoyed the stories being told, regardless of whether they were kids or adults. The same criticisms have been levelled at star wars etc.
Marvel has created a cinematic world that people enjoying being in and enjoy the stories being told within them. Some of the movies if they were stand alone would probably not sell well, but as they usually add to the world building of the MCU people enjoy them a bit (well marvel fans).
The other aspect is that people talk about adults liking the MCU, Harry Potter etc as if this is some new fascination. People have been loving things aimed at kids etc for generations, whether through nostalgia e.g. for me as a comic book fan growing up im seeing my comic stories brought to life, or whether just wanting somethting enjoyable set in a fun world.
One last point regarding Marvel, I reckon its best viewing them as a long running tv series rather than individual films. Especially the infinity saga.
I think with social media you just have people converging to certain trends.
E.g. Apple has become a religion to some. "Beats by Dre" are/were a bit of an equivalent to Marvel movies. GOT, especially in the later seasons, was basically a vehicle to create pics and vids for people to share on social media. Even in politics: right wing populism is centered around Trump/Republicans.
E.g. Apple has become a religion to some. "Beats by Dre" are/were a bit of an equivalent to Marvel movies. GOT, especially in the later seasons, was basically a vehicle to create pics and vids for people to share on social media. Even in politics: right wing populism is centered around Trump/Republicans.
Isn't that essentially the same point as @jeff_goldblum made though? It's a slightly different angle, but I think it comes down to the same thing: people understanding what works for their audience and being good at translating that into films. Your angle emphasises the craft in that, @jeff_goldblum is looking more at the mechanics of how you learn being good at it.
I guess the discussion then becomes: to what extent are people really training themselves in this (through all the audience research etc. that @jeff_goldblum mentions), or are these just people that are very well-attuned to what works for audiences now and particularly able to translate that into film.
I'd think it's probably a mix, where Marvel are good at recognizing people that are good at this craft; and that these people in turned are supported by Marvel staff that finetune scripts and editing (without specific credit) to make things work just that bit better. Cause yes, obviously Marvel are awesome at this particular skill, and far ahead of the people at Sony and DC and wherever else they're making superhero blockbusters.
Although I think it should be remembered (as was explained to me) that another part of the discussion here was that the success of these blockbusters has changed the financial model of the big production companies. It's not just that these films on average are more vacuous (if that's the right word) than blockbusters used to be, but also that they've pushed the middle section largely out of the market. Interestingly, I read an article just a few weeks ago about the recent lack of good romcoms - which apparently is largely caused by these films being the kind of mid-budget production that the big companies just aren't doing anymore.
Horror seems to go through cycles and has done for decades. Just when it seems dead, something really unique comes along that triggers a bunch of lesser imitations.
For what it's worth, there have been some really good horror films over the past decade, from Hereditary and The Babadook to things like Get Out, Us, It Follows and His House.
Then there's horror-ish modern classics like The Witch and Saint Maud. Not typical jumpscare films but interesting, brainy examples of sustained dread.
Considering how hit and miss the genre is, that's a fairly decent number in the grand scheme of things.
I think the last decade has been bordering on a golden age of horrors to be honest. Mother, Hereditary, Midsommer, Under the Skin, the Witch and Suspiria remake were all outstanding. Lots of good horrors that fill out the gaps like it follows or get out too.
Let the right one in was great too. I think i could probably add a dozen more to the list if i think about it for a bit.
Let the right one in was great too. I think i could probably add a dozen more to the list if i think about it for a bit.
I don't really disagree with anything you've said there and I don't think your point and mine are mutually exclusive at all. I'm not at all attacking people liking Marvel films or saying they shouldn't, I'm talking about how they're made, why it works and how the model they've invented has completely changed the industry. My point is simply that the approach they've taken to crafting that universe people love is very deliberate and methodical and the films in it conform to a consistent template, only straying from it in pretty superficial ways regardless of the cast, director etc. And that's not really a diss, it's exactly what you'd expect from a meticulously planned series of 30-odd hugely expensive, narratively interconnected films which, at the end of the day, are there to make money.
Yeah, I'd agree with your point and get what you are saying.
I guess I have a more holistic view of these things. What we are seeing in cinema is what we are seeing in every media and every industry with the top companies. The influx of data that companies get on their customers whether its the studio making a movie or Starbucks deciding what coffee to sell, every large company will be taking advantage of data metrics to point them in the direction of what they want to go and what the customer wants. The top companies like Marvel, Starbucks, Apple etc will have their formula of what makes their customers happy and will try to innovate within that bubble.
I do think though comic book movies get a bad rep with regards to the cinema, they've just basically replaced the multitude of action films that used to come out.
Author of Movies (And Other Things). Was it a 1 NYT best selling book.
The soviets got it right with their censorship.
The soviets got it right with their censorship.
Last edited:
Who is that quote from?
Just edited the post. It's Shea Serrano, I think it's from a interview on his book Movies (And Other Things).
How did that dude get a book published on movies with a take that bad?
Alexander Cockburn on Thomas Freidman becoming a NYT best selling author - ''It shows a lot of people are prepared to buy nonsense. They buy dog food and they buy nonsense. You can prepare dog food better and and you don't have to read nonsense.''
Last edited:
I saw bits of Raimi's Spiderman 2 last night - girlfriend's brother had it on - and even it felt so much more...human than modern Marvel movies. It had scenes where Aunt May struggled with being alone, had money troubles, was forced to give up her home. Things that weren't instantly undercut with a quip. Characters talked like actual people instead of being walking pop culture references and reeling off 'so...that just happened' type dialogue.
I really like Sam Raimi. I hope its just him being great that made that movie a cut above most of what came after but suspect the doctor strange movie he's directing at the moment wont be a patch on it.
Raimi’s Spider-Man had a lot of heart and it drew down on what Spider-Man so popular in the first place from the comics. He’s just a kid figuring it all out but with a sound heart and a conscience.
Alexander Walker turning in his grave.Author of Movies (And Other Things). Was it a 1 NYT best selling book.
Last edited:
The MCU was great but I am bored of it now. Barely any of the new stuff planned even excites me anymore.
The bullies in school weren't hard enough on him.
Finally some old fashioned cinema!
Last edited:
10 more years of this crap. I'm not sure I can go on.
Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not but I agree. I used to watch the MCU stuff religiouly but had to force myself through Loki, Wandavision and the Eterbals, but I haven't watched Black Widow, Hawkeye or Moon Knight.
A lot of the new stuff just doesn't interest me, probably because nothing is going to top Infinity War and I don't really have much interest in some of the newer super heroes.
Might be(I've not seen it although I would most likely think it's shite) but do we need another sequel to a super hero film ?
There used to be some idea that ok a director does a big budget movie and if it makes a ton of money they are rewarded to do something more creative/artistic about how their girlfriend is a bitch. Now your reward is getting to do more super hero films. Reeves last non franchise film was 11 years ago.
Yeah, I do agree to your point. There is certainly a disconnect between what is actually good cinema and what makes money/gets funded. Also, it's just my personal preference showing. I really, really liked The Batman, but I think all things Marvel are super silly (I've probably watched one or two of them, but I just know I would hate it).
I was interested in the Batman due to Patterson but the run time killed it for me. And tbh from the reviews and what people have said it on, it clearly isn't the same grey muck of other super hero films but its seems like now we've gone past the Nolan era(Doing super hero films then getting to do original projects)into having to try and turn superhero films into different genre films - The Batman seems to be a deactivate Fincher story dressed in a Batman suit, The Joker is King Of Comedy drama with a comic guy as the main character. Tbh it isn't limited to comic book films, almost every big budget sci fi film is now a ''serious'' remake.
I mean Paul Verhoeven new film is getting shown once next week at my local multiplex cinema where as Downton Abby and Doctor Strange will be on every hour in 5 different screens. It's so shite.
Totally agree on The Joker. The connection to the Batman lore was so thin, that it might as well just have been a random movie about mental illness, but I guess that connection drew in a significant portion of it's viewers. And the movie was still good, in my opinion. Regarding The Batman, I think it might actually be a lot closer to the comic book style than Nolan's movies (i.e., Batman being more detective than action hero), although I admit my knowledge of the comic books is quite limited.
I think we are in full agreement, that there is far too little originality in movies these days, which is a shame. I will say, however, that in the past years two of my favorite movies have been reboots of old franchises - Blade Runner: 2049 and Mad Max: Fury Road. So it is definitely possible to make something good that isn't entirely new.
Was this ever a thing? Is memento not an original project?
I mean on big budgets I guess. Without the Batman films I'm not sure Nolan could have got made Interstellar or Dunkirk made.
Tbh I think it can ever go back to the 70's. Whenever a director would get a big hit, they would get some leeway with their next project(I'm pretty sure due to The Exorcist, Friedkin was able to make Sorcerer, although that bombed due to Star Wars and killed auteur cinema
).That goes for a huge portion of movies, books, music, etc. It was still well executed. I liked it.
I just dont feel a lot of films need a huge budget nowadays. I kind of feel the big budget today isn't that comparable to the 70's. And i dont really feel like Denis Villeneuve for instance had to go out and prove himself with some paint by numbers hollywood bilge to get a big budget. He just made good movies from step one and the budgets he had access to increased. Which is kind of fair enough. Giving a 400m budget for some auteur project after one decent batman movie kind of seems ill advised.I mean on big budgets I guess. Without the Batman films I'm not sure Nolan could have got made Interstellar or Dunkirk made.
Tbh I think it can ever go back to the 70's. Whenever a director would get a big hit, they would get some leeway with their next project(I'm pretty sure due to The Exorcist, Friedkin was able to make Sorcerer, although that bombed due to Star Wars and killed auteur cinema
I think the cost of making most movies is a fraction of what it was and theres plenty of low cost productions directors can prove themselves in. The selection of movies in cinemas is pretty crap though, no argument there.