Are we seriously comparing Messi's range of goal scoring prowess with Martial's?
Martial | Di Marzio thinks he will stay
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
Can someone tell me what stand-out contributions Martial delivers week in week out?
I’ve only read a few pages of this thread but we’ve got posters defending Martial by using Messi and Salah as comparable examples. Those two players are on course to score 70 league goals between them! Martial has how many? 4!?
I think some people are slightly confused by the whole “Class of 92” hyperbole. They were a truly exceptional bunch for starters. Secondly, they came in and they started to contribute from the outset. Yes, Beckham in 96 or Giggs in 93 may have been inconsistent in comparison to their peak selves, but they still delivered 8/10 performances most games and racked up the goals, assists and trophies.
The likes of Martial have had chance after chance and the “young player” excuse starts to wear thin when the lad in question is 22 and has played 200 senior games.
I said to a friend 3yrs ago that Martial would go on to be one of the top 10 players in the world. He has all the ability, he has all the attributes - but unfortunately I am going to be wrong because I can clearly see now that he lacks the drive and mentality to reach those heights.
It’s a very rare combination (hence th scarcity of world class players) so it’s nobodys “fault” per se, it’s just the way it is. If we are happy to accept our position as a second Tier club who prioritise top 4 and the odd cup then fine Martial will do nicely. If we want to take on City toe-to-toe for titles and European Trophies we need players who deliver every single week
I’ve only read a few pages of this thread but we’ve got posters defending Martial by using Messi and Salah as comparable examples. Those two players are on course to score 70 league goals between them! Martial has how many? 4!?
I think some people are slightly confused by the whole “Class of 92” hyperbole. They were a truly exceptional bunch for starters. Secondly, they came in and they started to contribute from the outset. Yes, Beckham in 96 or Giggs in 93 may have been inconsistent in comparison to their peak selves, but they still delivered 8/10 performances most games and racked up the goals, assists and trophies.
The likes of Martial have had chance after chance and the “young player” excuse starts to wear thin when the lad in question is 22 and has played 200 senior games.
I said to a friend 3yrs ago that Martial would go on to be one of the top 10 players in the world. He has all the ability, he has all the attributes - but unfortunately I am going to be wrong because I can clearly see now that he lacks the drive and mentality to reach those heights.
It’s a very rare combination (hence th scarcity of world class players) so it’s nobodys “fault” per se, it’s just the way it is. If we are happy to accept our position as a second Tier club who prioritise top 4 and the odd cup then fine Martial will do nicely. If we want to take on City toe-to-toe for titles and European Trophies we need players who deliver every single week
All these talks about buy-back clause, do you guys think once he becomes a top player he will come back here? Let say we sold him to Juventus for peanuts and he did exceptionally well there for sure he will be a target for other top clubs as well. I don't think that time he will even consider rejoining United.
By your definition, pretty much every winger on our team has to leave.
Ha ha, nice fairytale there!
Have you seen how hard Salah works and covers? He works his socks off when he doesn't have the ball, this misconception that top forwards don't cover or track back for the team is bonkers
.Next game just watch how hard City and Liverpool's forwards work for the ball and cover back, I'm not talking about a pressing game I'm talking about tracking back and chasing players.
The stick that everyone beats Mourinho with about forwards covering back is a fallacy, all top teams in the premier league have forwards/attackers that work their socks off and cover back.
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'Potential' is a word used way too much in football these days..........
I’m tempted to just say you’re absolutely right
However, they don’t “have” to leave, they could knuckle down, work their arses off and try and break into the XI, I just don’t think Martial will do that unfortunately. I think he will bugger off somewhere where he can have an easy life.
Compare that to Rashford, who has the opposite problem. Rashford will work his socks off for the club and give himself every chance to be a world class footballer, just don’t think he has the raw talent unfortunately
it doesnt matter that he Works hard if he would face a wall of defenders everytime hes on the ball, Our wingers are way deeper then Liverpools, he would be Lucky too have 15 goals all comp for us.Ha ha, nice fairytale there!
Have you seen how hard Salah works and covers? He works his socks off when he doesn't have the ball, this misconception that top forwards don't cover or track back for the team is bonkers
Next game just watch how hard City and Liverpool's forwards work for the ball and cover back, I'm not talking about a pressing game I'm talking about tracking back and chasing players.
The stick that everyone beats Mourinho with about forwards covering back is a fallacy, all top teams in the premier league have forwards/attackers that work their socks off and cover back.
It's obviously a gamble because he's injury prone. It doesn't really have to be long term though. I'd be happy if we get a few good years from him. It is Bale after all, he is a superstar.
Yeah, this would be the best way to do it if he really wants out.
@GlastonSpur says spurs don't do buyback deals. But if they can get a talent like Martial for a couple of years at a low price, maybe they'll break that precedent. They don't pay six-figure wages either but they'll have to change that policy soon as well.
United don't need the money so surely it's better for us in the long run if we have the option of getting Martial back.
If they go out on the public wanting to go out then yes.
The only players we can bow down to this sort of shits is Ronaldo/Messi, the rest can do one.
This post would work if Salah wasn't one of the hardest working attackers in the league.
If he becomes good enough do you think the defenders would let him play his game? On the contrary in a counter attacking team his pace and dribbles works better since we're playing from the deep. IF he goes to a tiki-taka barcelona side who most likely will pin their opposition he'll have more trouble to break things as there's no space for him to run to
"A tenuous tale suggesting Martial wants to leave United (he doesn't) this week shot Martial's name up to third in the UK trends on Twitter. That the source had erroneously claimed in August that Tottenham had bid for Martial was irrelevant. It was Martial."
I also believe Bouhafsi's story about a Spurs bid for Martial last summer was BS. Bouhafsi is probably wrong again.
Messi and salah have probably closer to 55 goals between them and martial has 9 goals in the league this year in about 1400 minutes, so 15 games if divided by 90. Add to that 6 assists he has contributed to 15 goals in 1400 minutes. Also keep in mind most of thay was before Jan where he won fans player of the month twice.
Stats aside, he started the year in great form but Jose has been torn between him rashford and lingard. If u play well and are dropp3d instantly how do u expect to be consistent. Same happened witj rashford, scored 2 against Liverpool and was dropped at Swansea. Jose has his favourite line up with Sanchez lingard and lukaku all there. They all do what he wants and that is constant tracking back. Look at pogba, world class at Juve was only 22 when he joined us and is now struggling for identity. Do you think he lacks desire? Jose system just does not suit these players. I'd rather chose the players over Jose.
That could work, but I didn't mean Spurs specifically but any team, as long as we have the option to get him back.
Not clicking the link as Luckhurst tends to talk a load of crap but from the tweet alone Martial had scored in the three league games before Sanchez's arrival, then once Sanchez came in, Martial was shifted to the right for the Spurs and Newcastle games then got benched for the first Sevilla game and then finally got injured so to suggest that Sanchez had no part whatsoever in killing Martial's momentum is a bit disingenuous.
As for the quote you've posted, it would be great if that were to be true but plenty of opportunity for there to be egg on Luckhurst's face come presser time as I'm sure there'll be questions about Martial's contract.
And you think PSG will give us Neymar in return of Martial?
We badly need two full backs and for me, Valencia is not good enough to be our first choice RB.
Except Martial has worked harder this season, at least according to Mourinho himself. He produced for us and was in-form before Sanchez arrived. Then the latter was almost immediately shifted into the starting 11 and Martial quickly lost his place. Had Sanchez lit the world on fire, I could understand him playing every week, but it's not as if that's the case either. Mourinho, as much as I like him, has always had a preference for certain players. That's why Ibra almost always played, Lukaku almost always plays and Sanchez is barely let out of the lineup, no matter if they're going through a drought. That's why on Mourinho teams, you'll always find those who glorify and love to play for him and those who begrudge him and really want to leave.
He doesn’t want to come and I’ll be happy if he doesn’t.
Any one expecting Mourinho to drop a bombshell in his press conference today? I still don't see it as likely that Martial will leave yet the paranoia and confirmation bias of some posters on here would suggest that every major news outlet has gone to town on the story.
If mou has accepted that he will leave, it will be said that way. It was with Depay and Morgan.
Can't say I'm blaming Martial if he wants to move on from the club.
He deserves to play regulary for an another club to achive his full potential, which won't happen at Man Utd probably...
Maybe not at the beginning, but Benzema was definitely the first choice at Real Madrid...
And I think you're underestimating Benz's brilliant hold-up play & physicality, which are among the strongest assets into his game.
He deserves to play regulary for an another club to achive his full potential, which won't happen at Man Utd probably...
Maybe not at the beginning, but Benzema was definitely the first choice at Real Madrid...
And I think you're underestimating Benz's brilliant hold-up play & physicality, which are among the strongest assets into his game.
Surprise, this actually isn't a bad article. However, even if Bouhafsi is wrong, Samuel shouldn't be talking about a follow jounalist like that. He has too much h confidence in himself while he's copying news from other English sources and yet to see him come with any exclusives.
Normally I'd agree with you, but since Jose arrived, all our outgoing players have been sold for a decent price. Memphis. Morgan S, etc.
I think Jose tells Woodward that unless we get a good price, the player stays at the club and he will use that player as a back up.
If Moyes or LVG were selling him then he'd probably go for £30M, but with Jose, I think the price will be significantly higher. Just how high, is anybody's guess.
Wish I could trust Samuel Lurkhurst.
Messi and Salah have 58 goals in roughly 58 games - hence my comment that together they are on-course for 70 goals. It's also a big assumption to make that because Martial has scored 9 goals that he will continue to score at anywhere near the same rate across an entire season. We could also get into the 'he rarely scores against anyone of note whereas Salah and Messi score against everyone" debate but I can't be bothered because the comparison is just nonsense.
So secondly, how would I feel if I where dropped despite playing well.....well first off, I do play football (reasonable level but Amateur) and I have been dropped when I felt I was playing well. So I tried harder and made myself undroppable. I didn't sulk and threaten to join another team. Furthermore, you say Martial was 'dropped when playing well' errr....when was he playing well exactly? I'm not sure many managers are in the habit of dropping players who are tearing it up!
I don't think you intended me to answer these questions also, but I will. Yes, I do think Pogba lacks desire and no, I would never, ever, not in a million years, choose an individual over a manager, let alone Jose.
Martial wasn't dropped to accomodate Sanchez. They played in the same team several times. We were dreadful, they were dreadful, Martial got a knock, hasn't played much since. Sanchez has and has started playing reasonably well.
I typically associate right footed players on the left or vice versa as being limited.
Growing up I was always taught that when playing out wide, you want to keep your body between the defender and the ball while dribbling and the ball as far away as possible from the defender. So in essence, you protect the ball better when you dribble primarily with the foot closest to the side line. So the irony is, opposite footed wingers are somewhat naturally less comfortable...hence the constant cutting in etc etc
He was a cat not a hunting dog as Jose said. And perhaps you misunderstood my post, in fact you and I shared the same opinion. What i meant is that not every top strikers would fit Jose's striker profile - the physicality he demands from them. Benzema's link up play is always wonderful but Adebayor's strength was still something on another level in Jose's eyes.
I think people sometimes forgot how young Martial is. At his age Henry had still struggled on the wings before he could meet Wenger the man changed his game forever. I dont affirm Martial would definitely turn out to be a top top striker but at the same time, who knows which level he could reach with that huge potential and which position is truly best for him? These questions can only be determined accurately in the future.
However no matter how good the striker Martial could become, one thing for sure he'll never be a physical beast whom Jose needs as his main striker.
well he was dropped after the Spurs game, where he looked poor like most of his team mates, that was the game he got switched to the right to accommodate Sanchez. He was dropped for game v Huddersfield. He then played in 1 nil loss to Newcastle. He then played in and was subbed off v Chelsea. Was injured for the Palace and Liverpool games and then back as sub for Swansea and City games. He wasn't dropped per se to accommodate Sanchez, but he's been shifted to a position he doesn't look comfortable in and is ultimately not a starter because of Sanchez. Yes injury has played a role but fit or not, he's not starting over Sanchez. The face that we've used him on the right just shows how weak we are in that position. Maybe if we play Sanchez in behind Lukaku for some games, then Martail could start left but Lingard seems to have role behind Lukaku locked up and rightly so.
You did post that a player who doesn't have long range shooting or scoring headers or volleys cannot be a good striker, I gave an example off the top of my mind but I'm pretty there are other world class strikers who don't play like Ibrahimovic.
Has it really been confirmed that he wants out or are all these pages based on speculation?
Ha ha, nice fairytale there!
Have you seen how hard Salah works and covers? He works his socks off when he doesn't have the ball, this misconception that top forwards don't cover or track back for the team is bonkers
Next game just watch how hard City and Liverpool's forwards work for the ball and cover back, I'm not talking about a pressing game I'm talking about tracking back and chasing players.
The stick that everyone beats Mourinho with about forwards covering back is a fallacy, all top teams in the premier league have forwards/attackers that work their socks off and cover back.
Yes Salah works very hard I'm not saying otherwise. It's just our system is much different.
City and LIverpool defend intelligently, they try to win the ball very higher up the pitch, it also helps that their teams play a high line meaning their midfielders too are nearer to the opposition and once they win the ball back, the attackers job is much more easy as they only have short distance to the opposition box.
But in our system, the midfielders, wingers who were high up the pitch to attack have to drop back deep to help our defenders and after the ball is won, they now have to run the entire pitch to make an attack. This setup puts a lot of stress on players like Mata, Martial and even Pogba too. You put Salah in our system, he will struggle just as much as Martial and mata. That's why Mourinho prefers players like Willian ,Perisic, Young, Valencia as his widemen.
Reported by a very reputable source.
So why are advocating Martial to move to the other wing and not Rashford, Mata and Sanchez? Mata prefers his left foot, Sanchez and Rashford are right footed.
What you were taught is pretty much old school, no big team tries to play like that, the current system is inverted wingers who cut in and full backs who act as wingers.
I am getting old (school) I know
So I'm not intending to say Martial should be on the right. Actually im hoping to see Martial-Lukaku- Sanchez. My issue is that if Alexis is going to stay on the left and Lukaku center, Martial should be working to nail down what remains . Leaving the club because they're is a better player in his favored position is an indictment
I think it's a negotiation tactic. Martial loves it here, and we obviously see him as the future. Tony wants reassurances which is fair, and I'm sure we'll give them to him. He'll get the contract and we'll have forgotten all about it by the season starts.
Except Messi has scored plenty from outside the box and can finish just fine off his first touch too? There's literally no comparison between his ability in front of goal and Martial's. You're also nitpicking given the other attributes I said Martial lacks, and that it's the lack of a rounded skillset in these areas that makes him unsuitable. Again making Messi a fruitless comparison point given his many talents.