He was given more time because he was a much better player. We also sold him for the same amount you're dismissing for Fellaini.
Marouane Fellaini | 2013/14 Performances
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I'm not dismissing anything. He was given more time because Sir Alex Ferguson isn't a toddler like some fans are.
So, do you think it's good business to keep a player now, because of how much we paid for him, who will drain resources by taking a big weekly wage from the club, and possibly not contribute a lot (if he doesn't improve on last season's form), rather than cutting our losses and selling him now for 15 million? You think it's a better idea to write off 27 million plus whatever he makes in wages over the duration of his contract?
I'm not saying he definitely will not improve on last season's form. You, and many others, think he will, and I can respect that.
However, there are many of us who simply don't think he is good enough - even if he improves to the level he displayed at Everton. In that sense, would you still think it's ludicrous thinking to recoup 15 million, rather than throw good money after bad?
I think Andy Carroll is the perfect example. He was a decent mid table player, bought for a hugely inflated fee, by one of the top clubs in England (ok, not at the time up at the top of the table, but historically they're big, and that's where they see themselves and want to be). Their new manager came in, and instantly got rid of him for a cut price fee. Pretty much everyone thinks Liverpool did exactly the right thing when getting rid of him.
But to put your logic to it, they should have stuck with him and hoped he came good?
So, if a manager such a Louis Van Gaal (who has won numerous titles, a CL etc) comes in, deems him surplus to requirements and sells him for the 15 or so million that many of us deem a good deal ... would that make him a toddler like the rest of us fans?
Incidentally, are all fans who disagree with you toddlers? Are we not allowed to see things differently on players such as Fellaini etc? Does it make us immature, clueless etc?
I can't understand how anybody would want to keep Fellaini, his not good enough for a top club why else did you think nobody activated his buy-out clause despite him saying he'd leave Everton to play in the Champions League had Moyes not gotten the job he'd still be at Everton.
This is not a small club that has to fear the wage bill. It has a structured wage hierarchy that rewards loyalty. Again, if the club didn't think they could afford the risk at the initial outlay then they probably wouldn't have signed him, considering they run the club and run it well. It makes zero difference if some fans think that his wages have a detrimental effect on the club if he is not sold and/or isn't a first team player because of it, if they want to base their opinion to get rid off of that then more power to them. In the end if the club can't afford him now or in 5 years then they will get rid and they can feel a sens e of justification.
I'll say it again. It's a roll of the dice over a straight hard cash loss over the possibility of a return on the field from a player under contract. We're not making that decision (thank god) but if others want to say it's 'good business' to opt for the former then I am puzzled and fair play to them.
I'm not saying he won't improve, or will improve. I'm saying he won't if we don't give him the chance. The only thing to come of his sale is the hard cash loss. The possibilities of him staying and attempting to continue at United far outweigh the hard cash loss. Or I think anyway, no matter how deep seeded the Fellaini hatred runs in any fan.
This makes no sense at all. Everything he's done in the past is wiped clean and he has a fresh start under LVG. He may change his game entirely and contribute in a away that entirely changes his level of use. Lets just wait and see.
It's just not a good example at all. Andy Carroll didn't want to move for Liverpool and had the club owner personally shipping him off to Liverpool for a start. Dalglish wanted him at a cap and got him for a large fee under it. The player was visibly disillusioned by the entire situation had obvious attitude and social habits that hindered his ability to perform. Even in Big Sam's hoofball system at West Ham he's looked awful. The only thing even mildly comparable is the dinosaur tactics that Dalglish utilzed and obvious flaws in his tactical design that hinged entirely on whipping balls into Carroll (who ended up being unjured a lot anyway) and not much else after that. I mean even when he was on the park they would still hoof the ball up to him and play him like a target man when at Newcastle he never really played like that to begin with.
They sold him at a huge loss and will forever remain an absolute laughing stock for wasting an incredible amount of money on him. I don't profess to know much about the cash reserves and revenue of Liverpool but the money he was on may very will have forced their hand in that regard. Something that is the complete opposite of United.[/quote]
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You keep on harping about how well run a club this is yet are worried that taking a hit of about 10-12 million on a player which the manager may feel is surplus to requirements is too big and silly? The Carroll exampleis very apt here. He didn't perform well inder Daglish who wanted him. Then when Rodgers came and immediately realized they didn't require him, they took the loss on him and moved him on. No one is laughing because they sold him. Everyone agrees it was a amart move. They laughed at Liverpool because of buying him at that price, pretty much the case of us buying Fellaini at such an inflated fee.
Now you are entitled to believe that he MAY come good but have nothing to base it on. The other posters who don't rate him and want rid of him at least have the last season and his previous performances to base it on. Yet you are calling them toddlers while you hold on to the delusion that he will magically transform into the kind of midfielder we need?
The fact that you admit that it is a well run club will give you an idea that perhaps selling him for a loss now than keeping him on the roster through the length of his contract where his value my decrease further is a smart move from a financial sense as well. I simply don't understand how you can't see that.
EDIT: Btw do you also feel that getting rid of Moyes was a dumb move? He may have come good finally and it could have been better to keep him on than getting a straight loss by paying him is payout? You think people are laughing because we fired him and took a hit along the way? Everyone agrees it was the best move to get rid of him even if it meant paying him a compensation?
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Of course you are. You're dismissing the notion that selling him for £15m would be sensible. You then compare him to Veron who was bought and sold for roughly the same amount. The only one behaving like a toddler here is you. Stamping your feet and shouting loudest.
I still don't understand why some are fixated with the concept of perpetuating the folly that was buying Messrs Fellaini. What good will keeping him on, paying him big wages and watching his value plummet further be ? We need to admit that a mistake was made, cut our losses, wish the man well and move on. Or we'll find ourselves in another Anderson kind of situation where no one wants to take the player off our hands because of the massive pay package. FWIW I couldn't give a squat if some ABUs think we're a "laughing stock" for selling Fellaini at a loss. We need to do what is the best for the club and ensure its future success. Not worry about what oppo fans might think and obsess about their reactions. Sell Marouanne now when there's some residual goodwill from his Everton days and certain managers recognize physical skills and build their team around route 1 tactics. He just doesn't fit into Louis' system, not even as a rotation cog because the football intelligence, discipline, spacial awareness and technique normally associated with his defensive minded # 6 (Guardiola, Rijkaard, De Boer, Cocu, even Van Bommel) is lacking. And no amount of coaching will change that for a player approaching 27.
At this point, keeping him is better than selling him for cheap.
Fellaini was bought in a season where we were at our worst in decades, and had injury problems affecting him settling into a club bigger than the club he used to play for. United have always shown loyalty to most of our players. It's partly the reason why Luke Shaw is reportedly preferring us to Chelsea despite being a fan of the latter. There are bigger things to consider here than just a single bad season for a signing who everything's gone wrong for.
I reckon he should have another chance.
Fellaini was bought in a season where we were at our worst in decades, and had injury problems affecting him settling into a club bigger than the club he used to play for. United have always shown loyalty to most of our players. It's partly the reason why Luke Shaw is reportedly preferring us to Chelsea despite being a fan of the latter. There are bigger things to consider here than just a single bad season for a signing who everything's gone wrong for.
I reckon he should have another chance.
Why will it get harder to shift him on his wages if we wait than it'd be to sell him this summer? His wages are the same whether we sell him now or in 2 years time.
If we keep him he might rarely play and his value might go down a bit, tho it's already pretty low considering the season he just had. On the other hand he might play a bit better than he did last season and his value might creep up. Either way his wages aren't a variable.
Getting rid of him is the most sensible option.
The situation almost exactly mirrors the Carroll one with Liverpool, taking a loss on him now, and perhaps even subsidising his wages to help him move on is the best for both parties.
The situation almost exactly mirrors the Carroll one with Liverpool, taking a loss on him now, and perhaps even subsidising his wages to help him move on is the best for both parties.
The point that I are some others are alluding to is that he might go for ~15 m incase he has a good World Cup because that's his real value. It's a good window for shopping players as teams will have a propensity for overpaying on marginal talents. eg Karel Poborsky. He has a good tournament and we suddenly gain leverage in negotiations and can get maximum cash despite Fellaini's below par first year with United.
But if he fails next season, not only do we have a surplus player siphoning off big wages, but we'll have little scope of extracting decent money from buying clubs. That's potentially a loss of around 5 m in wages + ~5 m in deprecated value. For that 10 million we could get a squad player more suited to Van Gaal's style right in this window. eg Daley Blind who's a versatile utility player and is familiar with what Van Gaal wants from his team. We might possibly risk not signing such a player if we persist with Fellaini and he comes up short next season. Understand that in saying this I don't have anything against him or those who support him. I just find it difficult to believe he'll thrive or even be a part time cog under a technician like Louis is all.
Right. OK well I agree if he has a good World Cup we will have our best opportunity to sell him we are likely to have in a while.
Once again, people defending Fellaini aren't doing so because they have conviction he will prove to be a good player for us but because they're completely not used to us signing players and getting rid so quickly. It's not something that we'd associate with United.
What people need to realise is that Fellaini is perhaps the worst signing in United history all things considered. I keep saying this, but can anyone say what Fellaini is meant to add to this team?
I keep hearing he adds steel, but I didn't realise that West Ham was a big obstacle to our Champions league ambitions. Goals? Only if he's playing behind the striker where we have better goalscorers and players in Mata, Kagawa and Rooney. People resort to saying stuff like he's always looking to play a forward pass. Which normally is him playing a five yard pass that leads us down a blind alley. He's technically limited, physically limited and a thug to boot. He was a good player for Everton but there's no evidence to suggest that he's capable of playing at a higher level.
The likes of Berba and Veron who were signed for big money were given time because it was obvious that they tremendous amounts of ability and regularly showed it, even it was apparent that they did not suit the team. In contrast, Fellaini doesn't fit in and has looked like a donkey. I'd rather have Carrick and Fletcher in the squad and Fellaini has resale value so it's a no brainer to get rid
What people need to realise is that Fellaini is perhaps the worst signing in United history all things considered. I keep saying this, but can anyone say what Fellaini is meant to add to this team?
I keep hearing he adds steel, but I didn't realise that West Ham was a big obstacle to our Champions league ambitions. Goals? Only if he's playing behind the striker where we have better goalscorers and players in Mata, Kagawa and Rooney. People resort to saying stuff like he's always looking to play a forward pass. Which normally is him playing a five yard pass that leads us down a blind alley. He's technically limited, physically limited and a thug to boot. He was a good player for Everton but there's no evidence to suggest that he's capable of playing at a higher level.
The likes of Berba and Veron who were signed for big money were given time because it was obvious that they tremendous amounts of ability and regularly showed it, even it was apparent that they did not suit the team. In contrast, Fellaini doesn't fit in and has looked like a donkey. I'd rather have Carrick and Fletcher in the squad and Fellaini has resale value so it's a no brainer to get rid
I respect all the above but you are right, it does feel like we should give him more time. He may have looked like a donkey, but he proved at Everton he isnt one. There may not be evidence he's capable of playing at a higher level, but neither is there conclusive evidence he cant.
One thing people have said time and again that you havent mentioned is the fact that EVERYONE looked awful for us last year. Every outfield player, some would say bar Rooney, others wouldnt make that exception. But either way, it was hardly a great opportunity to shine. In a team functioning properly, who knows what Fellaini might have done. You can say he definitely would have looked rubbish anyway, people predicted he would before he even kicked a ball for us. Fair enough. But others may not be so convinced and may think he does have the potential to improve. Its not like we are brimming with options in midfield anyway, it seems to me rational to at least take a look, be open minded, before we write off £10m or whatever selling him at a loss. We may end up having to sell anyway. Or we may find Van Gaal can make a useful midfielder out of him.
Whatever Van Gaal decides to do is fine by me at the end of the day. I just think it is too early to be so certain he cannot make it for us. Playing in a dysfunctional team, as he did last season, is a very difficult environment in which to shine.
One thing people have said time and again that you havent mentioned is the fact that EVERYONE looked awful for us last year. Every outfield player, some would say bar Rooney, others wouldnt make that exception. But either way, it was hardly a great opportunity to shine. In a team functioning properly, who knows what Fellaini might have done. You can say he definitely would have looked rubbish anyway, people predicted he would before he even kicked a ball for us. Fair enough. But others may not be so convinced and may think he does have the potential to improve. Its not like we are brimming with options in midfield anyway, it seems to me rational to at least take a look, be open minded, before we write off £10m or whatever selling him at a loss. We may end up having to sell anyway. Or we may find Van Gaal can make a useful midfielder out of him.
Whatever Van Gaal decides to do is fine by me at the end of the day. I just think it is too early to be so certain he cannot make it for us. Playing in a dysfunctional team, as he did last season, is a very difficult environment in which to shine.
If we can sell Fellaini for somewhere in the region of 12-15m then I think that is the best thing we can do this summer, his value will never get any higher than that, we paid twice what he was worth and even if he has a better season this time next year he will be 28 and his value will only decrease. I don’t regard him as a useless player but he was a terrible signing and he isn’t even one of the best 10-15 cm’s in the league, play him in an advanced role and hoof the ball to him and he can cause anyone problems (his chest control is really good as well) but the rest of his game is very limited and he rarely passes the ball more than 5-10 yards. I am sure he can play better next season but he is not going to transform into the type of midfielder that we need, I have even heard people try to say he can be our Yaya Toure which is just laughable. It wasn’t an easy first season for him but next season he might face greater competition from new signings and better performances from the likes of Carrick & Cleverley so I don’t think next season will e easy for him even if the team is performing better and at times even Moyes preferred Giggs and Jones over him.
I don’t see how he will fit in with LVG’s style but he may still get a chance next season because it appears as if Woodward is once again struggling to recruit players and I don’t know who would buy Fellaini for the kind of money we will want. None of the top sides would be interested so I can see him being sent out on loan to an Italian side, back to Everton or possibly to another Premier League side.
I don’t see how he will fit in with LVG’s style but he may still get a chance next season because it appears as if Woodward is once again struggling to recruit players and I don’t know who would buy Fellaini for the kind of money we will want. None of the top sides would be interested so I can see him being sent out on loan to an Italian side, back to Everton or possibly to another Premier League side.
I think you're onto the key point there: we may not actually be able to buy anyone better. This whole debate must surely be underpinned by the assumption that we will bring a better midfielder, preferably two, in. Would people still want to sell Fellaini at a £10m loss so we can pick midfields from Cleverley, Fletcher, Carrick and Jones?
.. This place is absolutely mental sometimes. This time next year he will be 27.. 
In any case I think I am done trying to get my head around why throwing away Xm pounds is the 'most sensible' and 'right' thing to do. Absolutely ridiculous.
We'll see where he ends up when the window closes and how effective he can be if he's given the chance this season. The reactions are certainly going to be interesting if he has a good world cup and really hits the ground running at the start of the season. Well, I mean - In people's minds because I doubt he's going to get the credit he would deserve here, but interesting none the less.
That is an interesting point. I'd say there is room for a single worldy ball winner even if we don't let anyone go. Fletch can't be relied upon to be a main player in midfield. Carrick has been struggling to defend and has had a real dog of a season, Tom Cleverley is floundering in roles that he's not comfortable in and Jones I think it is time to play in the centre of defence and move forward with that. (Of course as well, Giggs and Anderson leaving).
Hell there is room for a single close and hose ball winner for 2-10m in there. Regardless of us going the worldy or scrapper route.
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In any case I think I am done trying to get my head around why throwing away Xm pounds is the 'most sensible' and 'right' thing to do. Absolutely ridiculous.
We'll see where he ends up when the window closes and how effective he can be if he's given the chance this season. The reactions are certainly going to be interesting if he has a good world cup and really hits the ground running at the start of the season. Well, I mean - In people's minds because I doubt he's going to get the credit he would deserve here, but interesting none the less.
That is an interesting point. I'd say there is room for a single worldy ball winner even if we don't let anyone go. Fletch can't be relied upon to be a main player in midfield. Carrick has been struggling to defend and has had a real dog of a season, Tom Cleverley is floundering in roles that he's not comfortable in and Jones I think it is time to play in the centre of defence and move forward with that. (Of course as well, Giggs and Anderson leaving).
Hell there is room for a single close and hose ball winner for 2-10m in there. Regardless of us going the worldy or scrapper route.
Ok so he will be 27 (28 in November) but the point is it will impact on his transfer value and it is not going to increase just as Andy Carroll's was never going to increase and keeping him here another year even if he plays better will not make anyone pay us 27m for him and by that point he won't . You are missing the point, we over spent massively on Fellaini and rather than have him sitting on the bench or in the stands and then leaving on a free or for a small fee in a few years time it is sensible to cash in now and re-invest the money in a player who is actually good enough to play week in week out.
Dembele is complete horseshit. Other than last season, an anomaly, Fellaini has comprehensively outperformed him in every season they have performed in this league. Comprehensively. If ever a footballer looked good doing absolute naff all then it's Dembele. He'll be lucky to last the summer at Spurs.
I can't say I agree with the decision, if true, to get rid of him from a moral perspective. One season in a total joke of a season isn't very fair at all from his perspective. But Van Gaal has to make some tough decisions. I can disagree with them, but I'd sooner see some ruthlessness than more dithering, so if Fellaini isn't his man then so be it.
Well balanced, well put.
Yes, it was petty of me but I did see your point. Going into the next season he'll be turning 28.
Let's just detach the two fan stigmas here. 'Transfer value +/-' and 'If remaining at the club he will never play another single minute'. Because it's not how it works and it's not black and white like that. The fee means nothing to us. He was bought for that by Moyes and he/the club/us as fans have to live with that. The fee for players very rarely matches the investment it presents over time (+ or -, ie Hernandez exceeding expectations, Kleberson flopping) and it confuses the hell out of fans and makes them see things in a totally different light, sometimes thing that just aren't there.
Also lets stop mentioning Andy Carroll in this thread, it has absolutely nothing to do with him and the comparison is so completely off the map I am not even sure why it was brought up in the first place.
When you say 'cash in now' you mean 'lose money now' right? Because that is what the club would be doing. 'Cashing in' is when you sell someone like Hernandez or Welbeck for 20m after getting them for peanuts. Cashing in isn't throwing away 10m pounds because the fans don't think a player is good enough. There is plenty of room for improvement. I mean the only way he can go here is up. If he makes some contribution whatever it is large or small then that is fine. I get the point, people want him to go, people associate him with our bad season and people can't get over the money aspect. What I don't get is selling him for little to nothing in this, it makes literally no sense. We'd be better off at least having a crack at giving him a role next season. Squad or otherwise.
One thing that will disappoint me if/when he is moved on this summer is that he has said that it was 'his dream' to play for United. So that tells me something, Moyes or otherwise. There will be a desire to make himself better and to turn it around. He can't be happy after that season, which means to me that he can surely improve.
Also are we using this for World Cup performance discussion?
Completely agree. I don't see what the urgency is to get him out the club anyway. Lets have it right, Even if we signed Vidal next season only, he'd struggle based on last seasons football. I can remember in the last decade a worst time to sign for this club.....
Have never ever written a player off at Utd after one season before, even Bebe. But I think I'd be happier to see Pearson line out for the first team next year than this guy. :-(
Cutting our losses and using the money to reinvest in better players is a better way to put it, look at what has happened with Anderson we have kept him on in the hope he will transform into something he isn’t and now we are at a point where his value is virtually nothing and we will probably have to let him leave on loan until his contract expires. We would have been better off selling him a few seasons ago for a reasonable fee and bringing in a different player or giving an opportunity to a younger player. I don’t think Fellaini is as bad as Anderson but I don’t think he will ever be good enough to play regularly and he just doesn’t fit in with how we are likely to play under Van Gaal so the sooner we offload him the better. It is a lot of money to lose but that is what happens when you pay such a ridiculous fee who doesn’t solve any of the problems in the team.
His fee/wages are relevant in terms Utd operating within a budget and he is taking a place in the squad, I think that place would be better off going to a better player who offers some mobility and or creativity which is something we are severely lacking in. Moyes signed him, I don’t think Van Gaal would have or probably any other manager other than Moyes (no-one else was prepared to even pay 23.5m for him), Moyes is gone now so if Van Gaal doesn’t want him then it is not his problem what Utd will lose in terms of the transfer fee.
i have written him off before he even joined.
Actually i think that Moyes should have been given Fellaini's registration rights instead of any pay off from United.
That would have served Dave well.
That would have served Dave well.
Well it's nice to see you gave him a chance...
To be honest, whenever I saw him at Everton I always wished we would never have a player of that calibre wearing our colours.
His lumbering, clumsy, lazy style of play irritates me.
He seems to lack tactical and common sense, and is a red card waiting to happen at virtually any time.
He cannot play the DM or CM but seems to be ok at the AM... which is a position he will never get to play in here as we have much better in that department.
He is just ill suited to us and the best thing for us and for him is for him to find a new club which would make the best use of his skill set.
To have him here just in hope that he will "come good" is akin to waiting for Anderson to come good at this point as well.
In his 157 EPL games how many red cards has he had?
Not sure to be honest... he just appears to elbow and run into people alot.
Thats good for him but it changes nothing...he still is unsuited to our style of play IMO.
I wasnt saying it changed anything.
There's not many teams who play a style that does suit him.
Everton have really moved in a different direction and look the better for it. Maybe West Ham could scrape together €10m, but then there's the huge wages he's on. Liverpool were lucky to offload Carroll although I believe he was only on £70k a week so big difference. Might have to look at a loan to one of the "new money" teams on the continent, maybe Monaco or Zenit if he makes an impression at the World Cup.
Not nearly as many as he should have to be honest. Referees know that accidental elbows do happen when 2 players challenge for a ball in the air and Fellaini uses this to land as many elbows as he can. I can think of 4 or 5 games this season where he was very lucky. Just a thug and shouldn't be representing our club.
I was thinking West Ham, Stoke or Aston Villa... pretty much the same places where I think Moyes may end up.
I think any bid over 12M he should be moved on.
I think you have a pretty basic grasp on how finances work in businesses. And yes, Manchester United is a business, first and foremost these days. Do you honestly think that when Van Gaal goes to Woodward, who then goes up the chain to the Glazers, and says "I need 30 million for a new midfield" (I'm putting a low estimate here, essentially 1 player, when we all know he needs 2), that they don't say "Eh, hold on a minute. We spent 27 million last year on a midfielder. What is wrong with him? You need to sell him before you buy". It's not like United have a limitless pot of money. Oh sure, we bought one last year, he didn't work out, let's get another. You do realise the club is in huge debt?
The Carroll comparison is absolutely perfect. You mentioned earlier in the thread that Liverpool are a laughing stock for selling him cheaply. Luckily someone else already pointed out that no, they're a laughing stock for buying him in the first place, but practically everyone knows they did the right thing in getting rid of him.
Yes, we'd be losing money now. What you don't seem to grasp is that unless there's a major, major improvement (and I'm talking Fellaini becoming a far better player than he was at Everton) we're going to lose money anyway, as his value is 15 million while playing at his very best. We were the only club willing to pay it ... why? Because we're the only big club stupid enough to buy him, basically because we had a manager who valued bad tactics and lumps of players. Therefore, the likelihood is we either make a loss now, or a massive loss later. At his very best Everton form, the guy is not good enough to be a starter for United. Look at the previous midfielders we have had at this club, those are the quality of player we should be after. Not some lump with great chest control, average passing, average tackling and a pretty poor goal threat, unless played in the number 10 role. And God help us if we end up playing him there, ahead of all the other more worthy players.
Yes, there is plenty of room for improvement. Absolutely. Because he has been shocking. The thing is, can he improve to the level we should expect of a United player? No, in my opinion. Hopefully I'm wrong. But having seen him at his best for Everton, that wasn't good enough. So, you think that "some contribution" is fine? I don't, in the slightest. You think getting 10 games from him next season is fine? So let his value drop spectacularly after that, but because he contributed ... that's fine? Worth losing probably an extra 10 million in fee alone, let alone however much he's on wage wise over the course of the season (if we were to sell him at the end of next year) ? And this is fine? But those of us wanting to cut our losses now are nuts?
Incidentally, a good definition of cutting your losses is the following, and it's completely applicable to Fellaini: to extricate yourself from an impossible situation, where there is very little or no hope for improvement.
similiar to cashing in your chips, however, when one cuts their losses, it usually means that they are walking away with nothing to show for their efforts, and are getting out before they have to endure even more loss.
As for it being his dream to play for United ... of course it is! I'm sure had he gone to City, Madrid, Arsenal etc, it would have been his dream to play there. Robbie Keane has apparently supported every club he played for as a boy. Who cares if it's his dream to play for us, it's my dream to play for us too. Doesn't mean we should sign, keep & play me.
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