No worries. My memory's gone to shite anyway, so I won't judge. You could be right about Fellaini too. I'm aware I'm clutching at straws here...
Marouane Fellaini | 2013/14 Performances
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Fellaini improving and flourishing in a different style of football isn't completely beyond the realm of possibility. The MO, for many, is to pretend as if he really is some lumbering oaf, but during his good games he has demonstrated that he can take the ball, turn into space and play it into the attackers with some accuracy. I don't know what will happen with Fellaini under the new man, but I'd like to see it given a shot. If, this time next season, we're still having this very discussion, then it's probably time to cut our losses.
The game against Hull was his best performance of the season and that is saying something.
He was a lot better against West Brom and West Ham.
I thought he was shite the other night.
Yes, I agree, he can improve. But for us, he has been a lumbering oaf, to be honest. He has generally taken the ball in space, taken too long to get it under control and then come under pressure, invariably losing it.
Fingers crossed that a new manager sorts him out, or ships him out. One or the other in my book.
Away against Palace too.
Tackling has changed in the last 20 years, there has been a move more towards winning the ball back which can be different to tackling. Putting players under pressure from the correct angles and at the correct times has reduced the number of times pro players attempt to win the ball back with a tackle. More often these days the times where a tackle takes place is in a 50/50 challenge. Players are generally more skillful on the ball these days and the danger of being caught diving in has meant coaches and players now place more emphasis on defending space rather than diving in on tackles. Put intense pressure on the player with the ball and you can knick it when they make a mistake. More frequent double teaming these days too.
Yes, I agree. Tackle technique has changed - and I don't think Fellaini does the new technique well either to be honest. He's slow around the pitch, doesn't close people down by taking good angles, and frequently gets caught on the wrong side of the ball, whilst ambling back.
And the odd occasion he does win it back, he gives it straight back.
I think they were all the same on Sky, Opta and the other stat site (not whoscored) which works with Opta.
its interesting the things you mention because he has shown in games that he can do the opposite of what you are saying.
For example the WBA game
"Fellaini took more touches than any other Manchester United player (100). That was all, the Belgian International made more interceptions (5), more possession wins in the midfield (6), and won more aerial duels (4) than any other Manchester United player. He completed 64 of his 71 attempted passes (90%) and completed more passes in his own half (34) than any other player. Defensively, Fellaini made eight clearances, five of which were headed clearances, won three of his four tackles, and won six of his 11 ground duels."
More interceptions may indicate that he is shutting down people at the right angles. The more touches than any other player could also be an indication of being available for the ball which is a sign that a player is moving effectively off the ball. More possession wins in midfield coupled with the more interceptions is another indicator of him getting around the pitch effectively. Interceptions and possession wins are also often associated with being quick at the right times. 90% completion rate of passes also points towards him retaining possession as opposed to giving the ball away frequently.
Yeah, the world cup has never made a player out of anyone - good point.
He's statistically been our best tackler this season, played half the amount of games of our other 'leadership & experienced' defensive midfielder Carrick (who's numbers are appalling for a player who's played a static defensive zone the entire season under Moyes), while playing in a box to box role. Even in the 'no10' type role agaist Hull he managed 4/4 while Carrick could only manage 1/3, one of which he managed to tackle a player losing the ball and magically return possession to him in front of goal.
I'm intrigued why people keep mentioning tackling but there isn't a full blown inquest going on in the Michael Carrick thread. Then people, rather ridiculously come into this thread trying to play down the agenda when every second post is 'feckin SELL HIM what a shit player!!'. Absurd.
As I mentioned earlier, people don't have a clue what they want a defensive midfielder to be. Despite ignoring the fact that Michael Carrick simply has never been a great defender they think that this magical player can tackle at 4pg+, intercept at 3+pg, pass at 90%+, play everything forward all the time, score 10 goals a season. This fantasy player simply just doesn't exist and if it did, we'd all know who we need to buy and straight away.
I am intruiged as to why nobody is answering my 'would you swap Fellaini for Jedinak' comment.
I think he'll come good next season. Hopefully he'll have a good world cup and kick on from there.
How can he 'come good' when he wasn't that good to begin with? He's not good enough to be a top midfielder and that's what we need.
It's almost as though the needle just skips and the same thing plays.
A Manchester United midfielder 
Anyone think Van Gaal can transform him into a box to box midfielder?
I now it is hard to imagine, but anything is possible.
I now it is hard to imagine, but anything is possible.
Good article, thanks for posting P1.
I seem to remember he was pretty decent at Everton. I'm not expecting him to be the answer to our midfield problems but there's no reason he can't be a useful member of the squad. We've won titles with arguably inferior personnel playing in midfield. Maybe wishful thinking but under an astute manager, I see no reason why Fellaini can't make worthy contributions. I'd give him at least till Dec 2014 before writing him off.
Good article PlayerOne, thanks for posting.
Well, I know why I haven't answered it until now, but since you question it again, no. Again, that's a player not good enough for United.
The reason people don't give out about Carrick's tackling is because he has many other decent attributes - his positional sense is far superior, and he's a much better passer of the ball. He has also given us years of service, in both title & champions league winning sides.
Fellaini doesn't offer us much with regard to use of the ball, and overall he's not a particularly good destructive midfielder either. He's basically meh at everything, in my opinion. For me, Fellaini had a couple of good performances, against very bad opposition. I want to see him do something worthwhile against decent teams, and he wasn't just average against good teams, he was absolutely shambolic.
Im gonna stop you right there. Not read your argument/debate but i did read this comment.
Carricks game has never revolved around tackles, ever. He gets possession back through interceptions, not tackles. As such, its not really appropriate to make that comparison. This is where you need to use common sense and realise that stats, actually arent everything.
Its like judging a fish on how well it can climb a wall. Its not made for that, so shouldnt be judged for that.
He won't come good because he's not a Kagawa who has all the talent and the tools but doesn't apply it well enough he's just legitimately not good enough at all. His touch, technique, skill, vision, pace, positioning all of it is sub par and it's not going to suddenly get loads better.
Arguably inferior who? Carrick? Cleverley? In midfield, Fellaini is no better than either of them. Sorry, I don't buy into this average squad nonsense either cos for a team that challenged every season we seem to have a lot of passengers and SAF could only do so much. Say what you like but at least we have done something with them so they can't be all that bad.
There's a big difference between (apparently) playing pretty decent at Everton for one season in this position a few years ago and the pressure/expectation of playing for our club. Those players have proved they can do that, Fellaini hasn't. When they are surplus to requirements like others in the past (eg. Brown, Butt, P. Neville) then they are moved on. Fellaini just doesn't fit into the style of play that will get us back to the top either. That's why he'll never be good enough.
Exactly, that's what we constantly get from those who think he'll 'come good'. And this is based on him playing well a few season ago.
Reading that article posted above, it seems Fellaini at least has the right attitude if nothing else. Surely he can at least become a useful utility player here?
Also, how awesome is Evra? Seems like he spends half his time telling other players what the club is about.
Also, how awesome is Evra? Seems like he spends half his time telling other players what the club is about.
Incredible player! There are some players at our club who need to move on, Evra however should not be one of them.
With a new LB he will get a proper rest which will help him perform better and also take the pressure off the new LB a bit (especially if it's someone young like Shaw).
Then we also need him for his personality and love for our club. Also, reports seemed to suggest he was the only one among the old guard who got on with Moyes. This shows that he is perfectly capable to be the link between all our players (he is well respected by junior and senior players) and the new management team.
Utility player suggests he is good in more than one position and that's an awful lot of money to spend on one. As a CM he is average at best and not consistent enough. He was only really effective as a battering ram at Everton and we have never played that way. It would be better to cut our losses and replace him so his wages can be paid to a proper midfielder.
Almost certainly. He can play in multiple positions so if he picks up his form then he will be a very useful player to us.
I'm not sure the money we paid for him is really relevant at this stage, we know he'll always be terrible value no matter how much we get from him. It was an awful deal from the get go.
Agree that we should ideally swap him for a player we can actually get the most of, we'll never even see the best of him here, limited as that best is to begin with. That said, if he does stay then surely he can at least be a decent option to have on the bench? I mean I've seen him have some good games for Everton as a cm, if we have to keep him then we should at least be able to get that much from him.
Agree 100%
Indeed. He isn't who I'd ideally have at the club but I still think we could get a lot more from him.
A lot depends on his attitude and mentality though. Even squad players here have to step up in big games from time to time. That's what made a player like Park useful in the past, even limited though he was he could still make important contributions when required.
Actually I disagree about the relevance of his fee. It is important. Everton paid £15m for him some years ago so he must have known that after this move, especially to a bigger club (the champions), he would be under much more scrutiny and the fee would be north of £20m or more. It would be naïve of him or anyone else not to expect the increased pressure and expectation that comes with it.
The truth is he just never was compatible with our midfield, for the style of football we should be playing to be successful again. And on the bench? As I said before, he's only effective as an AM winning headers in the box. Do we really want to play that way? There must be better options than him out there.
Not sure if you are aware of this but he doesn't choose his own fee.
In the same way some people are a broken record about their distain for Fellaini, you're a broken record at shutting them down and insisting he's gonna be great. Bit pot - kettle - black that is.
Anyways, he is my least favourite united player, probably ever. I look at him and don't like him much. He seems like a nice guy and a good person but to be honest he's a very unattractive footballer and he's not even near Man utd quality. At his very best he's a big target to play knock downs for better, more technical players. He isn't what we need and he isn't good enough for utd, imo.
Yes I am and I never said he chose his fee. Just that he should be aware of what comes with it and it should not be used as an excuse. And since Everton got him for £15m a few years ago, it's safe to assume that moving to a big club will involve a significantly larger fee, right? Since it's also a big step up. We cannot say he wouldn't have expected it.
And what multiple positions are they? Rooney can play in goal apparently but it doesn't mean we'll put him there. Fellaini is only effective in one position (and we don't really play that way), everywhere else he isn't good enough.
You should be stopping the melons in this thread from saying he 'can't tackle' but you call this out?.. Take a hike.
Michael Carrick has played as the static deep midfielder all season in Moyes system which relies on the deep ball winners closing play and winning the ball in non dangerous areas. Even if you want to say that it isn't his game, then that is fine, why have we been playing him like that all season then? Why has he played in that role where it should be padding his stats as a defensive midfielder and been failing to put up decent numbers? It's like playing Welbeck on the wing and using the blanket statement on Welbeck's game 'he can't score goals, he's simply not a goal scorer' when in fact he get's played up front in his natural position and what do you know? He actually can score goals, maybe his finishing is not fantastic in certain areas but the guy can score goals.
These types of discussions are being crushed by people moaning about how 'shite' a player is with blanket 'HES JUZ feckIN SHIT!' statements and it's ridiculous. Offer a little objectivity and you get called an 'X lover! DEFENDING TO THE DEATH YOU X LOVER' when they are just providing a little positive insight into what they think about said player.
Nowhere in this thread has I or anybody said he's guaranteed to be great, having a little hope in seeing that a player has the tools to improve his game enough to make a decent contribution and turn his United career around is not going down and giving it the old suck. Anyone saying 'well okay, I think he can improve' is instantly met with howls of derision by people skipping a broken record in which a player has no chance. Which is ludicrious in itself. A grown man with obvious football talent playing at high enough levels to improve his game? No?... Silly.
Anyway I've been drawn into a pointless argument again with negative nancies trying to insist that he's a hopeless excuse for a footballer which is hilarious really. In a league that has Kagisho Dikgacoi in it, which is by far the worst Premier League footballer I have ever seen in my life I think we can tuck the 'worst footballer ever' slander in the pocket. If you ask me, anyway.
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I would definitely give him another year. He was very good player at Standard Leige, i still remember how he and Defour bossed Gerrard and Alonso the CL league games.
He didn't start all that great at Everton but finished strongly and continued through the season after. Hes also continually gets into a very talent Belgium team.
He came to United with no pre seaon with us and played with an injury for 3 months. Tactically he not had a mainstay in a certain position, often being thrown in to use his strength from long balls, when the team is not renown for long balls.
Hopefully he will produce what he is capable of at the WC and come back to United as like a new signing.
He didn't start all that great at Everton but finished strongly and continued through the season after. Hes also continually gets into a very talent Belgium team.
He came to United with no pre seaon with us and played with an injury for 3 months. Tactically he not had a mainstay in a certain position, often being thrown in to use his strength from long balls, when the team is not renown for long balls.
Hopefully he will produce what he is capable of at the WC and come back to United as like a new signing.
So, if it wasn't for Moyes dream signing there wouldn’t be a Manchester United midfielder at the World Cup...
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