After all, we got Lewandowski for free.
pff, you will get an ass-kick for free in the cup
whole bvb-fansscene is discussing this possible götze-deal. interesting thing.
normaly the times when nationalteam plays is boring....
pff, you will get an ass-kick for free in the cup
whole bvb-fansscene is discussing this possible götze-deal. interesting thing.
normaly the times when nationalteam plays is boring....
It makes way too much sense for him and the club not to do it. It would suck that we have to let him go back for significantly less than what we paid, but I guess we'll survive. After all, we got Lewandowski for free
I just hope he gets his career back on track and does well for the nationalteam. Hopefully we can solve the thing before the Euro starts, so that he can relax and focus on that. We really need him in his best possible form.
He is on crazy high wages for his squad position and his contract expires next year, so I don't think Bayern are in a good negotiation position anyway. There might also be some concern about the narrative, though I'm not sure how much that would be worth to a football club.
I'm still wondering about the fans. Some of them are quite over-zealous in their hatred of him and the he wasn't exactly welcomed back with open arms whenever he returned to Dortmund. I actually can't recall another player who did his stretching in the catacombs because of the crowd. This would put a lot of pressure on the player and might cause some friction within the club.
Take him back, but don't welcome him back until he's earned it. It's really not that difficult. The whole 'stretching in the catacombs' thing was so stupid. Compared to Neuer's return to Schalke, everything the Dortmund fans did was really, really tame. And Götze at least never said anything disrespectful about Dortmund from what I know. It was just the reason he gave for the move which seemed really cnutish, but more towards Klopp than the club. Not that it makes a big difference of course.
there would be different possible ways to communicate it....
one pc, where he says it was a fault, or: he wanted to step up but it wasnt good, glad to be here again, want only to play and give my best..such things. and then: shut up, and just give the best.
if a club can handle such things, its the bvb.
It is obvious now that Freddie's article is part of the club's communication strategy to pave the way for Götze's return. Many fans may fall for it but I'm immune to it. That's because as stated before, how Götze handled the move is quarteriary to me.
Throwing shitloads of money to an injury-prone player's wages (where it remains to be seen if he can regain his form) and Bayern is as appalling as the signal for players that BVB is always a safe heaven to return to from your career failures and even earn more than before. Götze's questionable presentation on and off the pitch which started months before his move became public and ever since has gotten worse is, as is his father's behavior, just the icing on this toxic cake.
I have become critical with the football business in general these days and also how Dortmund's execs handled a number of issues. Götze's return would confirm my perception and accelerate my fading interest in the club.
Throwing shitloads of money to an injury-prone player's wages (where it remains to be seen if he can regain his form) and Bayern is as appalling as the signal for players that BVB is always a safe heaven to return to from your career failures and even earn more than before. Götze's questionable presentation on and off the pitch which started months before his move became public and ever since has gotten worse is, as is his father's behavior, just the icing on this toxic cake.
I have become critical with the football business in general these days and also how Dortmund's execs handled a number of issues. Götze's return would confirm my perception and accelerate my fading interest in the club.
I think you're getting carried away a bit.
12/13: 44 matches
13/14: 45 matches
14/15: 48 matches
This season was his first long term injury since joining Bayern. If you call that injury prone then what is Reus? Götze most certainly would have to take a pay cut in order for that move to happen and Dortmund would get a good player with loads of potential for a relatively small fee, doesn't exactly sound like charity to me, he also already was a top earner when he left, so relatively speaking he wouldn't necessarily earn more than when he left, the club's overall pay structure just got several hikes while he was gone.
Götze was a 20 year old with way too much money and a whole nation hyping him up when he left, those things can mess with you. Personally I didn't like how he presented himself either. But actions speak louder than words and if he comes back humbled, takes his pay cut and faces the same crowd he was hiding from not too long ago then that tells me he matured. Especially when there is also the easy route via the PL where I'm sure he could earn more with a lot less stress and pressure. If you want to put his teenage behaviour under the microscope then you should also give him credit for this (should it happen).
@do.ob
In a number of matches he played only a few minutes, including those in which he wasn't fit enough.
The comparison with Reus is pointless because he is injury-prone, too, and that Watzke/Zorc gave him the generous contract he's on now belongs to one of many things I criticize; no double-standards here.
Of course Götze would have a pay cut compared to the salary at Bayern but a massive upgrade compared to his Dortmund days. To me he's not worth it, it's money flushed down the toilet which I would rather offer Mkhitaryan and Hummels, and I can't take a club serious that keeps signaling departing players to be a rehab clinic for stagnating careers.
Believe it or not but the whole 'he left for Bayern' thingy is not my issue. I know that most BVB fans were emotional and felt he betrayed the club or something like that, but these were not my sentiments.
However, because you and others keep on mentioning it: I'm amused about the point made that Mario was sooo young. He was extremely mature for his age as mentioned several times by Klopp, Watzke and Zorc, and the decision to leave Dortmund for Bayern was not spontaneous but carefully considered. And believe it or not but I totally understand that he made this move. That's the business. A business in which your career can be over tomorrow. Why should I be cross with him for taking an opportunity?
My point is though: He was an adult, and as every other adult on this planet, he is solely responsible for his actions and the consequences. Returning to BVB is nothing which impresses me, quite the contrary: It's the easy way.
In a number of matches he played only a few minutes, including those in which he wasn't fit enough.
The comparison with Reus is pointless because he is injury-prone, too, and that Watzke/Zorc gave him the generous contract he's on now belongs to one of many things I criticize; no double-standards here.
Of course Götze would have a pay cut compared to the salary at Bayern but a massive upgrade compared to his Dortmund days. To me he's not worth it, it's money flushed down the toilet which I would rather offer Mkhitaryan and Hummels, and I can't take a club serious that keeps signaling departing players to be a rehab clinic for stagnating careers.
Believe it or not but the whole 'he left for Bayern' thingy is not my issue. I know that most BVB fans were emotional and felt he betrayed the club or something like that, but these were not my sentiments.
However, because you and others keep on mentioning it: I'm amused about the point made that Mario was sooo young. He was extremely mature for his age as mentioned several times by Klopp, Watzke and Zorc, and the decision to leave Dortmund for Bayern was not spontaneous but carefully considered. And believe it or not but I totally understand that he made this move. That's the business. A business in which your career can be over tomorrow. Why should I be cross with him for taking an opportunity?
My point is though: He was an adult, and as every other adult on this planet, he is solely responsible for his actions and the consequences. Returning to BVB is nothing which impresses me, quite the contrary: It's the easy way.
Fan reaction is something he simply has to deal with. I would like to imagine he's mentally strong enough. Manuel Neuer was not exactly welcomed with open arms.
you are right. but i think aki and susi wouldnt spend so much, that they cant offer mats and micki enough.
micki and mats are the primary task,thats for sure!
also: getting götze is a massive sign for players like mats and micki that our development is straight going on, that we keep adding topplayers to the squad.
you cant get that talent for 20 million today.
for the right atmosphere while reading my post i recommend watching götze@bvb videos on youtube
That's an odd way of thinking. I'm sure the club offers Mkhitaryan and Hummels as much as they can and they'd be on at least equal, most likely even higher wages, than Götze if they extend and Götze returns. Do you think otherwise? Is there any reason to back it up if so?
Regarding Reus' new contract. The problem is that your club isn't in a position to replace someone like Reus with equal not injury-prone quality. It's like saying Bayern shouldn't have extended Thiago's or Martinez's contracts this season. It's of course a risk, but it's really difficult for me to understand why attempts to keep quality players, show loyality to them and keep the team together is a reason why you lose your love for your club because of the football business these days. Kicking someone like Reus out of the club because he struggled with injuries even if he wanted to stay would be something I hate about a club I support. It's clearly worth the risk for the club anyway.
I also strongly disagree that Götze's return is a bad signal for your squad. You have constantly quality players who struggled at one of the few elite clubs and return to a smaller club. Signing them is never a bad signal, quite the opposite and I'm 100% sure that Hummels rates Götze highly and sees his return as an incentive to stay, not as a sign of weakness which leads to him leaving.
I don't get that reasoning. Dortmund isn't a club that can afford to let go of someone like Reus, because unlike Real or Barcelona they can't just sign a similar player for the same money, since that kind of calibre won't straight up join them. As I've already said, Götze afaik was already top earner at Dortmund when he left, if he'd earn much more after a return it would be because their wages were ridiculously low back then because the finances grew slower than the team. And what does such a deal have to do with Hummels or Mkhitaryan? If anything it's going to make them more likely to extend their contracts because it signals ambition.
Sahin and Kagawa were great deals when they returned, I can't see anything remotely bad about them aside from hurt pride.
And please, how is it easier to potentially face a hostile crowd every week than to make a fresh start with a bigger contract?
Bah, would hate it if he'd go back to Dortmund. Traitors like him shouldn't be given that kind of amnesty. He should toughen up, get his shit together and move abroad, crawling back to Dortmund like that is pathetic.
Also, I enjoy the whistles every time he gets subbed on against Dortmund, football is boring enough right now already, we need more hatred.
Also, I enjoy the whistles every time he gets subbed on against Dortmund, football is boring enough right now already, we need more hatred.
Has he been injured or is he just really out of favour at Munich?
It feels like you have more than enough hatred for all of us in you
.Both.
There's no way we would let Reus leave because he's injury prone when he wants to stay and performs most of the time when he's fit. You show loyality to the player and hope his luck changes. Even in a case like Deisler we kept extending the contract.
yeah...we really need more hatred.
Can someone clarify why Dortmund fans hate him? Most of you here seem to understand why he left. Did he actually say run the club down in public? I remember the announcement of his transfer being a few days before the CL final was odd. But I have no knowledge of any other gripe against him.
I'm very skeptical. The deal Reus got eroded my confidence, and the mere fact that they want to take Götze back evaporizes the little rest I had.
I'm sorry but I see it totally different. The signal is 'don't worry, we generously reward your career failures elsewhere'. That's a terrible statement and a path I fully oppose. Granted, they couldn't care less about what I think but if the University of Braunschweig who do the annual Brand Study of German football clubs was to pick me for their study, I would massively downgrade all those attributes which BVB has been so highly rated for during the last years.also: getting götze is a massive sign for players like mats and micki that our development is straight going on, that we keep adding topplayers to the squad.
you cant get that talent for 20 million today.
for the right atmosphere while reading my post i recommend watching götze@bvb videos on youtube
Coming back to Götze's abilities: Watch videos from Draxler or Max Meyer at that age, that's nothing which is indicative for future performances. The main actions I recall from Götze are a) the occasions he got booked for diving and b) the many wasteful shots in the away leg in Malaga.
He gave some interviews about wanting to stay in Dortmund long term, how he was going to build a house there because he liked it so much and then a couple of weeks later the news of his transfer broke (out of nowhere, like a bomb) a day before their CL semi vs Real.
Thanks. That is a pretty cnutish thing to do especially when everyone knows how passionate football fans are.
Along with what @do.ob said and what felt like he made promises to Dortmund fans that he had no interest in keeping, he basically said that the reason for the move to Bayern was Pep Guardiola and that he dreams of playing under him and that he loves his football. It really sounded disrespectful towards Klopp, because Klopp's football is so different. And considering how much Klopp did for Götze's development, it really was the wrong thing to say.
Turns out the football he dreams of playing isn't really the best football for him to shine.
To be fair, the whole football world was pretty enamored at the time with the style Pep had brought in at Barca. He could have been much more respectful towards the boss he made his name under, but then again, had he said he wanted to move for the club Bayern (as opposed to the manager Pep), it may have been seen as disrespectful towards the club that he made his name under.
Sadly, given what the previous post said, he ended up being disrespectful on both accounts.
Yeah. I think fans can deal with someone going to Bayern (Lewandowski), not being entirely honest about their desire to move (Sahin) and in a different case the timing might have been attributed to bad luck. But in Götze's case these three things came together and that really got under the skin of most fans.
I think United fans felt a bit similarly (micro-version) let-down with Rooney. Although he didn't leave, and he was a Evertonian, he did give off the impression that he genuinely loved the club, so when he started making statements about the clubs ambition, had contract haggling issues or through a hissy fit when SAF found him not up to scratch, it resulted it a strong reaction from fans.
I think sometimes players go overboard in playing to the audience raising expectations in the eyes of the fans. That's actually where the mistake occurs rather than leaving/haggling/being moody.
So you criticize a massive signal (first top class player in years to extend his contract) while fighting relegation? What is your criticism? The amount he gets? That can´t be it because while 8 Mil. € per year sound generous in terms of Dortmund, in relation to other clubs and players of his skill level and reputation it is at most average. So what is it? His struggles with injuries? If anything the signal to stand by a player with his history, but the clear identification with the club, and to take great care of of them is one of the few "soft facts" a club like Dortmund has to show to keep a hold on their best players.
Bullshit on the first bold. Sorry to sound that harsh, but if Götze gets back even close to his old level (this is the risk of the transfer, but certainly not a bigger one than signing someone new like Oliver Torres and Tuchel has shown a great record with getting struggling players back to their feet), then this deal is under the reported circumstances a massive steal. Try to find me a player with the proven quality and that high of ceiling as Götze on the market for that little money and who would be interested to play for us.
Looking at your other posts you simply massively underrate how good Götze was for us. Comparisions to Draxler or Meyer are quite frankly laughable. Even at Bayern he played on a higher level than these two and in difference to them being mostly just a promise and potential, Götze performed the moment he became a regular at 18 with a brutal consistency and was for his whole professional tenure at Dortmund amongst the elite of the league on his positions.
It is the second bold where the true motivation of being opposed to the move lies. It is hurt pride and the idea of taking back "rejects". I don´t know about you, but the wellbeing of my club is more important to me than that. Unless you find me an objective reason why taking back Sahin and Kagawa were such bad ideas, I will thank Zorc, Watzke & Co. for making the team stronger with little monetary input. I sure as hell did not think of any hurt pride, when Sahin carried our midfield while Gündogan was fearing for his professional career and having a player like Kagawa in the squad is also some pretty nice luxury. ´
Getting back Götze and him returning to his best would gtve us the strongest attacking unit we ever had (if Mkhi stays). This is what I care about, what actually happens on the pitch.
My personal feelings about this move are less one sided, but with Götze taking the hard road and facing his past mistakes he deserves a chance to regain my respect.
@Balu
I don't share your confidence that Mkhitaryan gets the offer he deserved, and that Volker Struth will ensure that his client Götze will get as much as his client Reus if not more.
As you well know, Bayern's financial power is not matched by Dortmund. Therefore the risk is much lower for Bayern to hang onto injury-prone players. Furthermore, I'm not in favor of keeping players under all circumstances who fail to regularly step up in big matches but tout in every interview that they want to win titles.
Saying that Reus wanted to stay is cute considering he and his entourage were flirting with his exit. They were not just unhappy with generous offers by the club and squeezed every penny out but also, to describe it nicely, about Kagawa's return as they didn't like the massive fan love for him, which in their view could have held Reus' popularity back. Talk to BVB fans who attend the Westfalenstadion for years: For unexplicable reasons, the love for Reus before his contract extension wasn't as pronounced as you may have expected given BVB is his boyhood club, given a BVB youth coach pushed him out, given he chose Dortmund over Bayern when he left Gladbach. The love for Shinji continued although he had left the club as soon as he got United's offer. Popularity is an irrational thing.
Reus/his agent managed nevertheless to bring himself in a very comfortable position. Too comfortable for my liking.
Let's agree to disagree about the signal that Götze's return sends, to me it's a signal of weakness, and a path I oppose. I expect Hummels to leave either way but he can now basically count on a return ticket regardless of his development.[/QUOTE]
I don't share your confidence that Mkhitaryan gets the offer he deserved, and that Volker Struth will ensure that his client Götze will get as much as his client Reus if not more.
As you well know, Bayern's financial power is not matched by Dortmund. Therefore the risk is much lower for Bayern to hang onto injury-prone players. Furthermore, I'm not in favor of keeping players under all circumstances who fail to regularly step up in big matches but tout in every interview that they want to win titles.
Saying that Reus wanted to stay is cute considering he and his entourage were flirting with his exit. They were not just unhappy with generous offers by the club and squeezed every penny out but also, to describe it nicely, about Kagawa's return as they didn't like the massive fan love for him, which in their view could have held Reus' popularity back. Talk to BVB fans who attend the Westfalenstadion for years: For unexplicable reasons, the love for Reus before his contract extension wasn't as pronounced as you may have expected given BVB is his boyhood club, given a BVB youth coach pushed him out, given he chose Dortmund over Bayern when he left Gladbach. The love for Shinji continued although he had left the club as soon as he got United's offer. Popularity is an irrational thing.
Reus/his agent managed nevertheless to bring himself in a very comfortable position. Too comfortable for my liking.
Let's agree to disagree about the signal that Götze's return sends, to me it's a signal of weakness, and a path I oppose. I expect Hummels to leave either way but he can now basically count on a return ticket regardless of his development.[/QUOTE]
plus: he just didnt realize that he was a chess-figure outside the pitch.
buying a player is one thing. but this move was so political from bayern, the aim was clearly to weakening the national rival,not only longterm but also shortly before the cl hf cause of their leaking. it was disgusting.
there is also the fact, that götze said "wants to play under pep" it was a facepalm for kloppo who made him a topplayer.
now its obvious that bayern lie to götze and told him fairytales that pep only wants him. the truth was: pep had never had the slightest interest in götze and clearly wanted neymar. the result can be seen on the bayern bench since years. beside the bvb, now götze also suffers from this act of a typicaly mean bayern thing.
An interview with his agent with the same content was released after the contract with Bayern was signed. Ouch.
@Sphaero
I don't care what other clubs could have afforded to pay Reus. All I care is what he gets at Dortmund in relation to the club's finances, his team mates and performances. Furthermore Reus wasn't as altruistic or loyal as portrayed; it amazes me however how many buy into the story.
I don't know why it's so difficult to respect that I see Götze differently and that my #faith (pun intended) in Götze regaining form is so different from yours. Likewise Tuchel's influence. It takes two to tango, and I doubt Götze is up for it. That's why I oppose his re-signing, very simple. I find it odd that although I said it here and on other occasions that I wasn't 'hurt' or whatever but found the move professional and understandable, you come up with the 'pride' thing. It isn't. I just judge upon the risk associated with the move to be high and the signal for players terrible.
Sahin is a different case to me because he was the first and a cheap re-signing, both in terms of fee and salary. Therefore I think to date that it was well worth the risk. I was torn about Shinji, because of the signal it sent to players but also although he was on the cheaper fee side too, I was skeptical if he could perform as well as he had done in the past.
I dunno with what fans you talked about Reus, but in his first two seasons he was one of the most celebrated players of the team and amongst younger fans the most popular of the team (even more so than Götze when he was still there). You just had to look around the stadium to realize it. His origin with the club/city and choosing Dortmund over Bayern led his number being by far the most common (that increased even more after he signed the extension, as by now around half of the printed shirts from the "Fanwelt" in Dortmund have the "11" on it). Internationally he was already the biggest face of the club.
The tone shifted in his third season (2014/2015), when he refused to sign an extension in the Summer. Parts of the support grew wary and wanted clarity and Reus´ hesitation and silence (which I definitively prefered over grand words, though) fuled these feelings in the stadium. By new year most were certain he would leave in the next Summer and started to distance themselves from him to prepare for that. The extension itself came as a major shock and multiplied his popularity in one day.
Your tale of the money grabbing ("squeezing every penny out") Reus simply sounds bizarre to me. Maybe in a normal contract extension setting, but in Reus´ case he erased a extremely low release clause in the process. Without that Reus would have been on the market that Summer for officially 25 Mil €. Even with his injury struggles that was far below his market value at the time (e.g. Firmino cost 42, Depay 30). There was reported interest by Paris, both Madrid clubs and half a dozen EPL clubs. WIth so many interests the negotiations would have moved far beyond the transfer fee towards salary and signing fee. Reus could have easily earned a good deal more abroad than the 10 Mil.€ he gets now and his signing fee would have been at least one annual salary (that is the common amount), given how low the release clause was and the financial potency by the interests it would have been more likely even above that.
This is the reason why I buy the loyality of Reus towards the BVB. Not because of some interviews or gestures, but because he turned down a massive pay day to stay at the club. That alone says more than any words could have done.
@Crossie
Zorc would have to literally blind to not see Mkhitaryan's importance to the team and I still don't see why Götze's wages should come out of his pockets, I can however imagine what kind of effect it would have on the players if the management turned away Götze.
Reus being a bottler in important matches is one of those knee jerk myths. For example he was one of the club's best performers in the 12/13 CL campaign and probably had his best match for Dortmund in the return leg vs Real a year later. Against Juventus last season he was the only one who looked remotely threatening. And imho it's only natural for him to want an extremely good offer from the club when they are at the bottom of the table and he supposedly has to turn down the likes of Real, it's also a question of being appreciated.
It's hard to respect your views on Götze, because they are so over the top. He sure as hell wasn't a success at Bayern, but at the same time he was far from useless either and if I look at the current prices (supposedly €15m for Malli, €16m for Perisic, €36m for Draxler, €30m for Son) then I find it hard to fault someone for paying €20m for Götze.
Zorc would have to literally blind to not see Mkhitaryan's importance to the team and I still don't see why Götze's wages should come out of his pockets, I can however imagine what kind of effect it would have on the players if the management turned away Götze.
Reus being a bottler in important matches is one of those knee jerk myths. For example he was one of the club's best performers in the 12/13 CL campaign and probably had his best match for Dortmund in the return leg vs Real a year later. Against Juventus last season he was the only one who looked remotely threatening. And imho it's only natural for him to want an extremely good offer from the club when they are at the bottom of the table and he supposedly has to turn down the likes of Real, it's also a question of being appreciated.
It's hard to respect your views on Götze, because they are so over the top. He sure as hell wasn't a success at Bayern, but at the same time he was far from useless either and if I look at the current prices (supposedly €15m for Malli, €16m for Perisic, €36m for Draxler, €30m for Son) then I find it hard to fault someone for paying €20m for Götze.
@Sphaero
I talk to those who attend the stands for years who confirmed my perception from my visits. You obviously want to believe the loyality story, so be it. Don't expect me to do it though. Sometimes it's possible to get insights into the harsh realities of the football business, and I'm too old to deny them.
It's very cozy for Reus to stay in Dortmund than to prove himself elsewhere with more competition and a less familiar environment. And, as Aki would put he: At Dortmund, he's not exactly on peanuts.
I talk to those who attend the stands for years who confirmed my perception from my visits. You obviously want to believe the loyality story, so be it. Don't expect me to do it though. Sometimes it's possible to get insights into the harsh realities of the football business, and I'm too old to deny them.
It's very cozy for Reus to stay in Dortmund than to prove himself elsewhere with more competition and a less familiar environment. And, as Aki would put he: At Dortmund, he's not exactly on peanuts.
@do.ob
Please quote me correctly. I said he fails to regularly step up as you can see e.g. in DFB Cup finals but also a number of important CL/EL and league matches. Contrary to those who derive their expectations for a player from his transfer fee (Mkhitaryan says hello), I derive them from their salary.
I don't mind him to want the best possible offer from Dortmund. Again, this is business, not romance. I mind though when the story is twisted as if he re-signed because of loyality. And I mind it, as written above, when a player gets more than the performances on the pitch suggest he should.
Same for Götze. You need to find me a post in which I say he has been useless. I just come to another conclusion when weighing the potential benefits and risks, and the impact it has on players.
Please quote me correctly. I said he fails to regularly step up as you can see e.g. in DFB Cup finals but also a number of important CL/EL and league matches. Contrary to those who derive their expectations for a player from his transfer fee (Mkhitaryan says hello), I derive them from their salary.
I don't mind him to want the best possible offer from Dortmund. Again, this is business, not romance. I mind though when the story is twisted as if he re-signed because of loyality. And I mind it, as written above, when a player gets more than the performances on the pitch suggest he should.
Same for Götze. You need to find me a post in which I say he has been useless. I just come to another conclusion when weighing the potential benefits and risks, and the impact it has on players.
You said "money flushed down the toilet", I don't associate that with respecting someone's quality.
Reus Scored in both home games against Porto and Spurs, so what EL matches are you talking about? What CL matches, when he was a leading player in all CL campaigns he played for Dortmund? Getting a wage hike doesn't mean you suddenly turn super human and don't have bad games. One cup final was a tactical midfield battle where both attacks severly struggled and for the other one he was rushed back from injury if that's your proof then a lot of players don't deserve their wages.
Reus Scored in both home games against Porto and Spurs, so what EL matches are you talking about? What CL matches, when he was a leading player in all CL campaigns he played for Dortmund? Getting a wage hike doesn't mean you suddenly turn super human and don't have bad games. One cup final was a tactical midfield battle where both attacks severly struggled and for the other one he was rushed back from injury if that's your proof then a lot of players don't deserve their wages.
All this means is money not well invested in relation to what you get in return.
That´s probably the most cynical way to put it, don´t you think? By that line of argumentation, I can accuse every loyal player to a club of the same thing.
As for perceptions inside the stadium: We should leave it at that we simply experienced different tones. As you put it in your PM, you have your sources I have mine. Just note that I don´t like being implied that my way of thinking is in some kind naive or young. I experienced enough with this club in my 20 years of regularily (although sadly not at everty opportunity) visiting the stadium, building a lot of contacts and friendships there in the process, to get at least some kind of realistic feel of parts of the match going support. It is not as white/black as we might like in cases like this. The vast support of a club like BVB is too diverse for that, which at the same time is also a good thing. This can lead to different experiences. There is no right or wrong here and it would be useless to change the others view on something as subjective as this.
That's nonsense. People love to throw that stupid line at Bayern, but it's just utter nonsense. We can't afford to spend so much money and ruin our wage structure by making him one of the highest paid players at the club to ruin a club we were at the time comfortably ahead anyway. It's one of those super lazy nonsensical cliches football fans love to throw around, but it makes absolutely no sense in any way whatsoever.
Did Bayern really need Gotze when they signed him ?
Well no. Some clubs have higher standards than Dortmund. You could never accuse anyone staying at Real for example of doing it because it's cozy. There's nothing cozy about playing there. People even criticize players like Hernandez for going there saying that they'd never get into the team. I think that's pretty stupid because they're trying to take that extra step and that's commendable in my opinion.
Having said that I wouldn't accuse Reus of staying at Dortmund because it's cozy. It's not like it's comparable to, say, Le Tissier's situation because Dortmund have been competing on all fronts during his stay there and could do so again next season.