But then I would be denying my true self and altering my intellectual output to conform to social norm.
I do not think she deserves to live and I will not sanitise that viewpoint because centralist politics and morals have started to bore me.
Margaret Thatcher
- Thread starter Team Brian GB
- Start date
But then I would be denying my true self and altering my intellectual output to conform to social norm.
I do not think she deserves to live and I will not sanitise that viewpoint because centralist politics and morals have started to bore me.
Quite possibly if you suffered to the same extent others did then you could have the right to tell me that you think I shouldn't think what I think. But if you benefited from her policies then, no I don't think you have that right.
Exactly how thousands of people in NI feel who either suffered greatly at her hands themselves of witnessed their family members and friends suffering.
You see little difference between Margaret Thatcher and a man who systematically tried to wipe out entire ethnic minorities from European society completely? Are you insane or just belligerent? You know you can disagree with what someone did without resorting to such petty tit-for-tat comments? A bit of decorum in modern society certainly would not go amiss.
But we don't even need to extend it that far Irwin. She is Stalinesque in her persecution of her own people.
Does the quantity of those dead really matter?
Because her inability to show compassion for those on hunger strike, and allowing them to die the most painful death in order not to grant them POW status sounds about the same level to me I'm afraid.
I think that quiet satisfaction is different to open rejoicing though personally. If you've suffered at her hands it's entirely understandable to feel that, but this whole 'hurrah, she's cold and dead! Crack open the champagne!' approach is different to the muted sense of justice you are describing, in my opinion.
Would you disagree?
How so? I think his crimes are pretty obvious, the media might have been against him but they hardly needed to embelish his crimes, they stand alone.
Yes, I agree. I'm quite a fan of that petition to have it privatised considering how little she approved of public sector extravagance, aside from all the reasons for why she shouldn't have one.
Little difference ideologically? I don't really want to go down the holocaust path, because that is generally a debate from which people never return to the initial point, but much as I disliked Thatcher's policy, I don't think it is comparable with Hitler's death camps.
Equally, I don't think anyone here is trying to show how 'pristine' their moral fibre is. It's just a discussion. I'm not immune to a bit of schadenfreude, but regarding the death of someone, particularly someone I didn't know, I think I would find it very difficult to actively exult in that news.
At the end of the day she did at the time do what needed to be done. Ideologically there was probably a lot that she got wrong, but the removal of low quality manufacturing that would have killed itself in the end in any case was not wrong. Her largest error and that of subsequent governments was never investing enough into high quality manufacturing.
Look lets forget the Hitler comparison I was being dramatic. I was purely illustrating that a lot of people who are saying 'never wish death on anyone' would have most probably celebrated Adolfs passing.
FFS, what a load of bollox. She was a strong leader with very conservative policies. The country was in an absolute mess in the late 70s and quite frankly many of her polices were good for the country at the time. A large percentage of the UK population voted into office three times. She only carried out his promises to the people that voted for her.
Like her or loath her to yearn for her death and possibility celebrate the death on another human is pretty sad and pathetic.
Look on some of my comments the tongue is firmly in cheek. But you cannot deny that her treatment of certain individuals in foreign policy (the likes of Bobby Sands) was morally deplorable.
I will leave the example of the hunger strikers because I think that's a slightly more complex case, but if we were talking about the victims of Bloody Sunday for instance then yes, that is the same. However given the number of people who claim they have champagne on ice waiting for the day she goes, I find it difficult to believe that all of those have a relative or close friend who was killed under her policies.
Lots of us suffered, and in my view society as a whole suffered under her policies, however I don't feel that that's enough justification for me to feel pleasure in her death. I won't mourn her, but I won't be singing either.
And Thatcher firmly demonstrates why democracy is a crap philosophy and a buzzword.
It makes two fatally imbecilic assertions:
1.The populace knows what is good for itself.
2.Leaders will look to the long-term. (Thatcher realised the key to re-election was short term gain at the cost of the bigger picture)
It makes two fatally imbecilic assertions:
1.The populace knows what is good for itself.
2.Leaders will look to the long-term. (Thatcher realised the key to re-election was short term gain at the cost of the bigger picture)
It's difficult for us to comment on the Hitler example given that none of us were alive then. But Bin Laden is probably the closest barometer we can use, and the scenes of jubilation then I didn't agree with.
There was a sense of justice and a feeling that the world might be a little bit better without him (measured with caution), but that's different to out and out happiness.
Thanks Team Brian for demonstrating above my post my very point.
I just can't get over this state funeral idea. I mean, she was hardly as crucial to the nation as Churchill, was she?
Churchill was a wanker too though right? Look at the reverence with which the murderous Cromwell is perceived in modern day Britain.
Nationalism blinkers logic.
Nationalism blinkers logic.
If your point is contrary to what you are saying then yes, the best indicator of well being is national wealth which is also the most significant indicator of national productivity, which under Thatcher boomed.
Nah, if it wasn't for him, we'd be a German satellite.
I'm not saying "never wish death on anyone," there are plenty of unsavoury people currently in positions of power that I would not be too upset about seeing die but I'm not about to rejoice in their death either. It's as I said in my previous post; more decorum in society would not go amiss. I was only born in 1988 so I can't say I fully understand your anger, nor can I say I disagree with you on the majority of her policies but I find it hard to actually be happy to hear about the death of what is now an old woman. Her time in power has been over for a very long time and while you may have a case in arguing that some of what she did is still affecting the country today, being bitter about it still does not solve any of the problems they created.
At least we would have a nice view. Go see Weaste's 'your country from space thread'.
The idea that we should put on a state funeral for Thatcher is absurd. She's probably the most divisive figure in Britain today...and the most hated.
If she gets one, let's have one for Blair, too, and see how the Tory anti-Blair brigade like it. After all, UK GDP boomed under Blair also, and that's about the only positive that Thatcher has to her name.
If she gets one, let's have one for Blair, too, and see how the Tory anti-Blair brigade like it. After all, UK GDP boomed under Blair also, and that's about the only positive that Thatcher has to her name.
That was a cracking last post from me before the bump.
What's this about a state funeral then? We don't do that sort of thing...we're British, for goodness sake.
What's this about a state funeral then? We don't do that sort of thing...we're British, for goodness sake.
Not especially a fan of either man personally, though Churchill was a very good war time leader who led the country well in one of its largest challenges of modern times. Doesn't mean he was a nice bloke though.
As for Cromwell, I'm no fan.
Highly unlikely. The Cult of Churchill strikes again. He was pissed off his face for most of the war, whilst everyone else was doing the proper fighting.
I was referring to the fact that most our political elite were ever-ready to compromise, whereas Churchill was not.
It doesn't solve anything.
But this talk of 'decorum' is the same as turning a blind eye. This dislike of individuals is intrinsic to humanity, and this kantian logic of rising above it is a simplistic viewpoint imo.
Truthfully you cannot expect everyone to show decorum at the passing of every individual, and if you did want that... welcome to your beige existence.
Oh and I was born in 1990, it doesn't prevent me from logically asserting that Thatcher brought injustices, discrimination and hatred into her democratic mandate.
Jesus Christ
So you don't even remember much before 2000 in any meaningful context. Politically you probably don't have any real recollection of anything prior to around 2005.When she dies I'll drink a small bottle of milk and toast her life.
Jesus Christ
Kids these days wouldn't know what to do if they had to live through power cuts.
Jesus Christ
I guess not.
But then again is that really needed?
Why is it a 'beige existence' for people to show others dignity in death? Leaving aside the whole 'no one should rejoice' argument, to argue that it is bland to show decorum when someone has died seems bizarre.
I would say yes. I don't remember governments prior to around 1975 or United teams prior to that era. I generally stay the feck away from deep conversations on said topics because I wouldn't know what the feck I was talking about.
Its an Internet issue. People have forums they never had and feel they have to interject their opinion. Old saying opinions and arseholes, everybody has one.
Because IT WILL HAPPEN. You are in denial if you do not see that, and your zealous opinions are merely fabrications of your desire for a 'holier than thou' viewpoint.
Get real.
I won't really celebrate Thatchers death, but I won't be so naive to assume that I know what is 'right' and 'wrong' or even what those terms mean in this post-modernist era.
Jesus Christ
Not to defend FB's views, but I don't know that date of birth means that someone's opinion is more or less valid.
We all have opinions on the likes of Hitler, Churchill etc. Yet how many of us actually lived through those times? On here, probably none. Doesn't mean we can't debate it with proper context though.
But I have studied History at tertiary level.
By your logic Egyptology and all other past gazing should be disbanded. If anything your existence at the time of the event probably prevents you from viewing it with objectivity.
hmmmm.......reference my post above. Yes I have a vague opinion on said two gentlemen based on very limited information. In Hitlers case it doesn't take much to decide he was a bad man. Churchill may well have been a bit of a twat at times but he was a good leader. I wouldn't get drawn into deep debates on either.