Margaret Thatcher

I appreciate this debate may have died out, but that just does not make sense. What the feck was she supposed to do? When did she really have access to the full details? That shit dragged on for years with inquest after inquest.
She inherited a situation that was nothing of her own making and yet you pin it on her and say she is more culpable than the administration at the time.

I've seen a few Thatcher threads on here in my short time and given opinion is so polarised, I'd be amaazed if we've ever had a convert either way.

As moses has noted above, Bloody Sunday was never really dealt with properly until the end of the Saville Inquiry in 2010. The one carried out immediately afterwards was, at best, a botched job that overlooked much of the evidence in favour of the British Army and made several false claims, such as suggesting the victims had been armed.

As you say, there were repeated calls for another inquiry, however this was never agreed to until 1998, under Blair. It's perhaps unfair to blame Thatcher primarily for Bloody Sunday given that it wasn't her administration under which it occurred, nor was hers the only government not to deal with it properly. However, given that she was the longest serving Prime Minister between the tragedy occurring and the Saville Inquiry being commissioned, on top of her already notorious relationship with Irish Republicans on other areas, it's an event with which she has always been associated.

I note your comment above about how the Republicans can't get on their high horses about it given the instances under which the IRA killed civilians, and I think there's a case to be argued with that in relation to other events during the Troubles, such as the hunger strikes. But Bloody Sunday really was a one way street in my view. The British Army behaved atrociously that day and all the victims were unarmed civilians who had been marching peacefully. The fact it was covered up and that some of the officers involved were decorated afterwards was a real travesty. Given all those facts, I think it's both reasonable and understandable that people were up in arms about it long after 1972.
 
Tbf, it was years ago that I studied it at school and maybe I remember it wrong. Maybe it was the repeated calls for a proper inquiry I am thinking of.

I can understand the feeling of injustice but Republicans were just as happy to blow up civilians, including kids, so they can hardly get on their moral high horse.

Yes it was the calls, which is exactly the opposite of the point you made.

And I said people in the Republic grew sympathetic due to her actions, which is not the same thing. At all. But if you are happy to equate the British Government/Army/Thatcher with the IRA then my point is beyond made.
 
Yes it was the calls, which is exactly the opposite of the point you made.

And I said people in the Republic grew sympathetic due to her actions, which is not the same thing. At all. But if you are happy to equate the British Government/Army/Thatcher with the IRA then my point is beyond made.

This is the other key factor. In terms of both sides being guilty of killing civilians, that is of course true. But you would expect the British Army and UK Government to operate to a higher standard than an organisation that grew to be associated with terrorist acts.
 
As moses has noted above, Bloody Sunday was never really dealt with properly until the end of the Saville Inquiry in 2010. The one carried out immediately afterwards was, at best, a botched job that overlooked much of the evidence in favour of the British Army and made several false claims, such as suggesting the victims had been armed.

As you say, there were repeated calls for another inquiry, however this was never agreed to until 1998, under Blair. It's perhaps unfair to blame Thatcher primarily for Bloody Sunday given that it wasn't her administration under which it occurred, nor was hers the only government not to deal with it properly. However, given that she was the longest serving Prime Minister between the tragedy occurring and the Saville Inquiry being commissioned, on top of her already notorious relationship with Irish Republicans on other areas, it's an event with which she has always been associated.

I note your comment above about how the Republicans can't get on their high horses about it given the instances under which the IRA killed civilians, and I think there's a case to be argued with that in relation to other events during the Troubles, such as the hunger strikes. But Bloody Sunday really was a one way street in my view. The British Army behaved atrociously that day and all the victims were unarmed civilians who had been marching peacefully. The fact it was covered up and that some of the officers involved were decorated afterwards was a real travesty. Given all those facts, I think it's both reasonable and understandable that people were up in arms about it long after 1972.

That is a very balanced and articulate summary of the issue.

Thatcher took a hardline on terrorism and no doubt the British government does have blood on its hands after some of the events in Ireland, but plenty do seem to almost single-handly blame her for it.
 
Yes it was the calls, which is exactly the opposite of the point you made.

And I said people in the Republic grew sympathetic due to her actions, which is not the same thing. At all. But if you are happy to equate the British Government/Army/Thatcher with the IRA then my point is beyond made.

I can't imagine simply refusing an inquiry would have been that big a rallying call for Republican sympathies- at the margins at best, surely. Would you see disabling Tebbitt's wife fostered support?
 
That is a very balanced and articulate summary of the issue.

Thatcher took a hardline on terrorism and no doubt the British government does have blood on its hands after some of the events in Ireland, but plenty do seem to almost single-handly blame her for it.

Yes, implying that it was a single-handed effort by her is both incorrect and irresponsible. She certainly played her role during the Troubles, but the issues didn’t start under her, nor was she the only politician to inflame the Anglo-Irish relationship through her policies.

I can't imagine simply refusing an inquiry would have been that big a rallying call for Republican sympathies- at the margins at best, surely. Would you see disabling Tebbitt's wife fostered support?

You’re right that ‘simply refusing an inquiry’ wouldn’t necessarily have been a huge rallying call. However, that’s probably not an accurate description of what happened. Not only was this terrible event not looked into properly until 26 years after it occurred, but the victims families had to put up with pretty vicious lies about how the victims had allegedly been involved with terrorist activity, and how they had gone there to cause trouble on the day, most of this being complete lies. On top of this, they had to witness some of the offending members of the Army being congratulated and decorated for their crimes that day, all of which obviously made the injustice that much crueller.

Ivan Cooper, the MP who had organised the march taking place that day, certainly felt that it was a huge victory for the IRA in all its forms. The day had been designed to show the power of civil rights and peaceful protest, and the violent suppression that occurred seemed to suggest to many that peaceful protest was not a viable option anymore. Many young people in particular felt that the IRA were more likely to give them results, and I imagine that on the evening of Bloody Sunday, both the Provos and the Official IRA would have inducted a lot of new and angry recruits.

As for your last point, I would agree that the disabling of Tebbitt’s wife and the other deaths as a result of the Brighton Bomb would have fostered sympathy for the other side of the battle. Many people who may otherwise have been sympathetic to the Republican cause would likely have been horrified by such an event, particularly as it was mainly the MPs families effected as opposed to the MPs themselves. I don’t have any stats to back this up (Brian will probably come along to help out here) but I would imagine that just as Bloody Sunday was a huge scalp for IRA favour, the civilian attacks that were carried out by the IRA would have seen a swing in favour of government and against Republicanism.
 
To be honest, I was being somewhat obtuse. Like many in England, I grew up hearing about the troubles nearly every day and selfishly didn't really care about it- just got annoyed when it came over to the mainland.

Can understand it is still very raw in the memories of many Irish people.
 
To be honest, I was being somewhat obtuse. Like many in England, I grew up hearing about the troubles nearly every day and selfishly didn't really care about it- just got annoyed when it came over to the mainland.

Can understand it is still very raw in the memories of many Irish people.

Yeah, your post was obviously the one I was responding to directly, but it was more just a general post than all specifically aimed in response to you. Irish History is very rarely taught in British schools in my experience, or at least not this side of it so much.

Like you, I grew up in England hearing about the Troubles (the latter half of it, I grew up in the 90's) and the assumption was always that the IRA, and by default all of the Irish Republican movement, was a threat. It was only later when I took an interest in Irish history independently that I learned more about our involvement over there and how the modern day IRA was not an accurate flag bearer for the entire Republican movement in Ireland.

It's such an interesting area of History, and given how closely linked Ireland and Britain's histories and current relations are, I think it's a real shame that the curriculum doesn't reflect this more.
 
Yeah, your post was obviously the one I was responding to directly, but it was more just a general post than all specifically aimed in response to you. Irish History is very rarely taught in British schools in my experience, or at least not this side of it so much.

Like you, I grew up in England hearing about the Troubles (the latter half of it, I grew up in the 90's) and the assumption was always that the IRA, and by default all of the Irish Republican movement, was a threat. It was only later when I took an interest in Irish history independently that I learned more about our involvement over there and how the modern day IRA was not an accurate flag bearer for the entire Republican movement in Ireland.

It's such an interesting area of History, and given how closely linked Ireland and Britain's histories and current relations are, I think it's a real shame that the curriculum doesn't reflect this more.

I grew up in the 1980s and remember when they wouldn't let Gerry Adams' voice be played on TV so an actor had to say it. Very odd looking back on it.
 
I wonder if she'd ever shake 'terrorist' Mandela's hand?
 
I don't disagree that Thatcher was an uber bitch, but I also think she gets some (some) unwarrented treatment because of it.
She does - I respect Thatcher as a politician, but that's really it. The fact that people still distaste her and the papers still write about the legacy of Thatcherism is testament to her. She was stubborn but probably her greatest achievement was breaking the notion/mantra after the war that 'Socialism' was good for you. It can't have been when Heath, Wilson, et al failed.

From an economics point of view, she was nothing more than a sock puppet for Friedman and her policies in the final administration were a ticking timebomb, backfiring on her (Black Monday, ERM scandal). Disliked her for the NHS reform and killing off Thames Television, in fact the 1993 franchise licenses as a whole. As for the reports regarding a 'state funeral', surely that would be better off privatised?