Margaret Thatcher

[mjs020294]

Its not melodramatic at all. It's what happened in Derry in 1972 among many other crimes her government rubber stamped.

Thatcher wasn't Prime Minister to 1979

Looking back at events it is easy to judge governments. The IRA and troubles in Ireland were a major issue back then and I don't actually think many of the policies and decisions were far off point considering the context of everything else going on.

 

[Dobba]

I'm for giving her a state funeral if, after a career fighting against spending other people's money before going to claim half a million quid in benefits, "Died a hypocrite" is put on her gravestone.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Mostly I try not to think about her at all anymore and if people would just shut up then I'd let bygones be bygones but no I have to have her foisted on me as some kind of role model. It's galling because what we now know factually about her is pretty damning.

But the myths persist and look set to be perpetuated.

She was wrong a lot of the time, which is why her own party loathed her and got shut of her in the end. I think her legacy is pretty obviously negative.

 

[711]

She was wrong a lot of the time, which is why her own party loathed her and got shut of her in the end. I think her legacy is pretty obviously negative.

The Tories are still fighting to distance themselves from that very legacy of selfishness and nastiness to this day.

The 'Big Society' bollocks was designed to demonstrate how much they've changed.

 

[Mockney]

Its not melodramatic at all. It's what happened in Derry in 1972 among many other crimes her government rubber stamped.

The bitch. She went back in time and ran Edward Heath's government too did she!! What a monster! I think she was probably secretly in charge during the Boer War too. And all that horrible shit we did during the Crusades. Is there no end to her evil!?

So far we've got one passionate anti-Maggie death wisher who wasn't even born until she left office, and another whose blaming her for events 7 years before her tenure.

And you wonder why some of us think the bogey woman hysteria is a bit ridiculous.

 

[EricaNo7]

The bitch. She went back in time and ran Edward Heath's government too did she!! What a monster! I think she was probably secretly in charge during the Boer War too. And all that horrible shit we did during the Crusades. Is there no end to her evil!?

So far we've got one passionate anti-Maggie death wisher who wasn't even born until she left office, and another whose blaming her for events 7 years before her tenure.

And you wonder why some of us think the bogey woman hysteria is a bit ridiculous.

You're a marvellous young man sometimes !

 

[mjs020294]

, which is why her own party loathed her and got shut of her in the end. I think her legacy is pretty obviously negative.

I would tend to disagree with that. My old man was very connected to the Tory party back then. He was on the Merseyside development committee with Heslitine, he chaired the department of trade and industry grants committee for the NW, and he was a close personnel friend of Cecil Parkinson. People maybe trying to distance the party from events of the 80s but she was nothing but loved within her own party back then.

 

[Mick1991]

Time travelling Maggie. Sequel is in the bag.

 

[moses]

The bitch. She went back in time and ran Edward Heath's government too did she!! What a monster! I think she was probably secretly in charge during the Boer War too. And all that horrible shit we did during the Crusades. Is there no end to her evil!?

So far we've got one passionate anti-Maggie death wisher who wasn't even born until she left office, and another whose blaming her for events 7 years before her tenure.

And you wonder why some of us think the bogey woman hysteria is a bit ridiculous.

That's not what he said in fairness. To ignore the part she and her government played in that debacle becoming the massive injustice it was is just ignoring facts. And is just as ridiculous as overstating her villainy.

edit - as for not being born? I'm a history graduate and thankfully none of my examiners took that stand. Reading books may actually give one a better overall than the BBC or RTE news at the time did.

 

[WeasteDevil]

That's not what he said in fairness. To ignore the part she and her government played in that debacle becoming the massive injustice it was is just ignoring facts. And is just as ridiculous as overstating her villainy.

This is the problem moses, it wasn't her government! She was Secretary of State for Education at that time.

 

[moses]

This is the problem moses, it wasn't her government! She was Secretary of State for Education at that time.

Subsequently; when she was in power while all the protests were going on, her government were obnoxious, and proven wrong by time. 'it was like that when I got here' is not an excuse. To the victims of that tragedy there is no room for her to be falsley demonised. She was at times actually demonic.

 

[bsc]

Maybe at midnight we can make it a double celebration.

 

[Mockney]

That's not what he said in fairness.

It is, in fairness.

You would have to do something terrible like harm my kids to instill the feeling of hate in me TBH.

What about turning the power of the state against it's own people and killing your neighbours children in the process. Would that do it?

No, and that is very melodramatic.....

Its not melodramatic at all. It's what happened in Derry in 1972 among many other crimes her government rubber stamped.

But as you answer to my question that if she authorised arms of the state to kill your neighbours children you still wouldn't hate her.

In the context of the conversation, there's no other interpretation. At best, it's lazy wording. At very best.

To the victims of that tragedy there is no room for her to be falsley demonised.

Insinuating she was responsible for Bloody Sunday is false demonisation, whatever way you want to look at it. That she did other heinous things isn't an excuse for it either.

And actually, for people wishing to celebrate her death, I actually WOULD rather they had a personal, emotional reason born of experiencing it first hand rather than the more objective one you'd get from reading about it later. Because that at least makes the false demonisation understandable and slightly more rational IMO.

 

[moses]

It is, in fairness.

....

No it's not, he used the phrase 'rubberstamped', which hints towards administrative complicity, implies it was after the fact and explains that she stood over, or approved what was essentially murder of civilians. Which she did, over and over.

Insinuating she was responsible for Bloody Sunday is false demonisation, whatever way you want to look at it.
....

Again. He didn't say anything of the sort.

And to play your own cards against you I do remember the news reaction over here as she dimissed the later proven claims made by the victims. And death was one of the kinder things wished upon her. That tragedy did not occur while she was at Number 10 but it played out all the way through her administration and it how she is defined over here, by people who were born.

 

[Mockney]

You're twisting it, or interpreting it in a comically scouse way moses. It's very clear his intention was to link Thatcher hardly to the Bloody Sunday tragedy. Implicating it was alright to hate her for "killing your neighbour's children. You're being biased and unobjective. As I said, at the very least it's badly worded. And if he was aware she was Education Sec in 72, it was cynically badly worded, because people (like you it seems) are more than happy to let the implication stand as it paints a person you hate (rightly it must be said) in a worse light to those without as good an understanding of the topic.

I'm no fan of Thatcher. But objectively it's a false and disingenuous painting of her (either cynically or accidentally) in order to bolster an agenda.

 

[moses]

You're twisting it, or interpreting it in a comically scouse way moses. It's very clear his intention was to link Thatcher hardly to the Bloody Sunday tragedy. Implicating it was alright to hate her for "killing your neighbour's children. You're being biased and unobjective. As I said, at the very least it's badly worded. And if he was aware she was Education Sec in 72, it was cynically badly worded, because people (like you it seems) are more than happy to let the implication stand as it paints a person you hate (rightly it must be said) in a worse light to those without as good an understanding of the topic.

I'm no fan of Thatcher. But objectively it's a false and disingenuous painting of her (either cynically or accidentally) in order to bolster an agenda.

She is linked man. And heavily. That case was open all the way through her time in office. The bullets were fired earlier but the real tragedy was the subsequent cover up and denial. That is not my interpretation. That and the H-Block debacle actually defined her over here.

 

[Mockney]

I'm not fighting Thatcher's corner btw mo...I'm just trying to be objective. Overly so possibly. I don't think it's fair to make that connection in the way he did. To the layman, there's no other interpretation than "She was responsible for Bloody Sunday" Which was the implication made.

She may have had later connections to it's cover up. But she did not "kill your neighbours children" and was not responsible for it. Just as Estelle Morris wasn't responsible for the war on Iraq.

And if Thatcher doesn't need false demonisation, then why do it?

 

[moses]

I'm not fighting Thatcher's corner btw mo...I'm just trying to be objective. Overly so possibly. I don't think it's fair to make that connection in the way he did. To the layman, there's no other interpretation than "She was responsible for Bloody Sunday" Which was the implication made.

She may have had later connections to it's cover up. But she did not "kill your neighbours children" and was not responsible for it.

Aye, but I saw nowt wrong in the way he phrased it. She is synonymous with Bloody Sunday due to arrogance and the dismissive way all attempts at justice was sought over here were dealt with. In a way moreso than anyone who was in number 10 at the time as we all know the PM wasn't the one who ordered that the unarmed civilians be shot. I'm not being argumentative here or even nebulous, just explaining what many people over here think and explaining what I think he meant. That said I could be arguing for him and the original statement completely unjustly. But Bloody Sunday as a tragedy and political rallying point was way way more than what happened on that day.

edit - The army shot dead it's own civilians outside their homes and then the governemnt covered it up, for years. That's how ... etc.

And if Thatcher doesn't need false demonisation, then why do it?

Well if you read all I wrote and know what she said on the matter and feel that the demonisation is false then we'll have to agree to disagree. I've never heard anyone say she was falslely demonised for her part in Bloody Sunday and all it entails.

 

[Mockney]

I don't disagree that Thatcher was an uber bitch, but I also think she gets some (some) unwarrented treatment because of it. Almost to the point of "well she was such a bitch there's no harm in exaggerating it a bit." There's always harm in that, because it leads to deeper and deeper entrenchment.

Anyway nebulous is a fantastic word. I'm going to use it tonight.

 

[moses]

I don't disagree that Thatcher was an uber bitch, but I also think she gets some (some) unwarrented treatment because of it. Almost to the point of "well she was such a bitch there's no harm in exaggerating it a bit." There's always harm in that, because it leads to deeper and deeper entrenchment.

Anyway nebulous is a fantastic word. I'm going to use it tonight.

Maybe in English or Scottish terms there is good and bad to be weighed up, but I have to say that over here in her policies and more than that in her manner, she was one dimensional, like some sort of Bond villian, and that is the way most will see her, and it's not an exaggeration. She hated the whole fecking mess up north, not that I blame her, but she never once hid her disdain.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

I would tend to disagree with that. My old man was very connected to the Tory party back then. He was on the Merseyside development committee with Heslitine, he chaired the department of trade and industry grants committee for the NW, and he was a close personnel friend of Cecil Parkinson. People maybe trying to distance the party from events of the 80s but she was nothing but loved within her own party back then.

Fair enough I meant more inside the parliamentary party.

My father was a steel worker and I was around 14/15 during the steel strike in 1980? If you go around describing him as the enemy within then I’m not going to forget that nor the hardship visited on the people I cared about. People say change had to come but it was brutal and the most despicable thing is to then start blaming whole communities and saying they deserved it.

Areas of the country like the one I come from suffered terribly, and then you get Tebbit pointing his finger a saying get on your bike. Condescending and vindictive doesn't really cover it.

 

[EricaNo7]

Fair enough I meant more inside the parliamentary party.

My father was a steel worker and I was around 14/15 during the steel strike in 1980? If you go around describing him as the enemy within then I’m not going to forget that nor the hardship visited on the people I cared about. People say change had to come but it was brutal and the most despicable thing is to then start blaming whole communities and saying they deserved it.

Areas of the country like the one I come from suffered terribly, and then you get Tebbit pointing his finger a saying get on your bike. Condescending and vindictive doesn't really cover it.

It's amazing how perceptions can differ . I think I must have lived in a bubble world as I really had absolutely no idea that hardship like this existed then. I suppose I spent so many years listening to my parents and grandfather's right wing politics that they became my own. Then when I lived in London all my friends were Conservatives so I never even thought to question it. Even when I went into private practice, my employers were close friends with Lord Young so there was no escape !

 

[Agent Red]

It's amazing how perceptions can differ . I think I must have lived in a bubble world as I really had absolutely no idea that hardship like this existed then. I suppose I spent so many years listening to my parents and grandfather's right wing politics that they became my own. Then when I lived in London all my friends were Conservatives so I never even thought to question it. Even when I went into private practice, my employers were close friends with Lord Young so there was no escape !

What about now? Do you think your views have been tempered at all from the friends you've made outside of that bubble?

 

[EricaNo7]

What about now? Do you think your views have been tempered at all from the friends you've made outside of that bubble?

I'm still a Conservative if that's what you mean. When I was growing up I knew I was lucky that we were quite well off , I remember once my friends talking about their parents' mortgages and I said I didn't really know what one was, just that we didn't have one .
I think it's hard for me to realise that not all Lady T did was wonderful - as I did at the time - as I really had no conception of hardship at all. My son is a real leftie ( as we call him ) but I concede he does have some good points

 

[Spoony]

. My son is a real leftie ( as we call him ) but I concede he does have some good points

All young people should be, to be fair. I think going to uni helps change opinions too. Probably.

 

[Agent Red]

I'm still a Conservative if that's what you mean. When I was growing up I knew I was lucky that we were quite well off , I remember once my friends talking about their parents' mortgages and I said I didn't really know what one was, just that we didn't have one .
I think it's hard for me to realise that not all Lady T did was wonderful - as I did at the time - as I really had no conception of hardship at all. My son is a real leftie ( as we call him ) but I concede he does have some good points

I suppose I was asking more if your views had altered at all from what you grew up with once you had more exposure outside of your 'bubble'.

Most of my friends who have grown up in a 'bubble' as you describe tend to follow their respective parties in the same way as we follow United, and very rarely disagree with party line.

Did you find that after a bit more exposure there were a few things you were brought up to think that later you actually reconsidered? i.e. remaining a Conservative but perhaps for different reasons, or not agreeing with party line on some issues?

 

[EricaNo7]

All young people should be, to be fair. I think going to uni helps change opinions too. Probably.

Going to uni has made him even leftier

 

[EricaNo7]

I suppose I was asking more if your views had altered at all from what you grew up with once you had more exposure outside of your 'bubble'.

Most of my friends who have grown up in a 'bubble' as you describe tend to follow their respective parties in the same way as we follow United, and very rarely disagree with party line.

Did you find that after a bit more exposure there were a few things you were brought up to think that later you actually reconsidered? i.e. remaining a Conservative but perhaps for different reasons, or not agreeing with party line on some issues?

Well I must say I never agreed with the Community Charge, I did think she got that wrong.

 

[Agent Red]

Going to uni has made him even leftier

That's the trend I think, then supposedly when work starts everyone switches.
However I know many exceptions to that rule and don't think age or what stage you're at in life is necessarily an excuse for behavioral u-turns.

Student politics is particularly bad for people blindly following dogma though I think, I always avoided it like the plague.

 

[Agent Red]

Well I must say I never agreed with the Community Charge, I did think she got that wrong.

Interesting.

Great location by the way

 

[711]

Well I must say I never agreed with the Community Charge, I did think she got that wrong.

The initial idea for the community charge was a good one, in that it attempted to correct a situation where large numbers of people could vote for local rates to rise and rise in the secure knowledge that as they didn't pay rates they could never lose out. What they should have done was set community charge according to income or wealth, so that the amount paid was affordable, but enough to make people think about at voting time. What they actually did was set the charges to effect a wealth redistribution from the ordinary to the well-off as part of her insane class warfare. I well remember the relief when it was abolished, even as a young couple, both working full-time and with no kids, it had been a struggle to pay the bastard.

 

[Jippy]

All young people should be, to be fair. I think going to uni helps change opinions too. Probably.

Yeah ditto, then you start paying taxes and move to the right.

 

[EricaNo7]

The initial idea for the community charge was a good one, in that it attempted to correct a situation where large numbers of people could vote for local rates to rise and rise in the secure knowledge that as they didn't pay rates they could never lose out. What they should have done was set community charge according to income or wealth, so that the amount paid was affordable, but enough to make people think about at voting time. What they actually did was set the charges to effect a wealth redistribution from the ordinary to the well-off as part of her insane class warfare. I well remember the relief when it was abolished, even as a young couple, both working full-time and with no kids, it had been a struggle to pay the bastard.

I agree it was a good idea in premise but it was never going to work. I was surprised it lasted as long as it did

 

[Cristobal]

Firstly I don't agree that any 'moral point scoring has gone on' but any discussion of morals has arisen from those that said they would happily celebrate in her death. You can say now that that was tongue in cheek, but I don't believe that was the case for everyone who said it, and if it was that certainly wasn't clear, which is what sparked this debate.

Equally, I don't think anyone here has claimed to be without sin on this. I've repeated many times that I've wished bad things on other people, of course I have, we all do.

I would happily celebrate in her death, and in my list are also:

Bush Jr.
Aznar.
Blair.
Videla.
Galtieri.
And lots of cold blood killers like them.

And NOT, I dont have a moral issue wishing them that.

I woulda have it if I wish them the best.

 

[Agent Red]

I would happily celebrate in her death, and in my list are also:

Bush Jr.
Aznar.
Blair.
Videla.
Galtieri.
And lots of cold blood killers like them.

And NOT, I dont have a moral issue wishing them that.

I woulda have it if I wish them the best.

This debate ended a couple of days ago to be honest, I think we said most of the things we could about it.

 

[Cristobal]

This debate ended a couple of days ago to be honest, I think we said most of the things we could about it.

Ok, I was just sayin my point of view.

 

[Agent Red]

Ok, I was just sayin my point of view.

Fair enough, my response to your post would be the same as what I said in my previous posts in this thread.

 

[Jippy]

Aye, but I saw nowt wrong in the way he phrased it. She is synonymous with Bloody Sunday due to arrogance and the dismissive way all attempts at justice was sought over here were dealt with. In a way moreso than anyone who was in number 10 at the time as we all know the PM wasn't the one who ordered that the unarmed civilians be shot. I'm not being argumentative here or even nebulous, just explaining what many people over here think and explaining what I think he meant. That said I could be arguing for him and the original statement completely unjustly. But Bloody Sunday as a tragedy and political rallying point was way way more than what happened on that day.

edit - The army shot dead it's own civilians outside their homes and then the governemnt covered it up, for years. That's how ... etc.

I appreciate this debate may have died out, but that just does not make sense. What the feck was she supposed to do? When did she really have access to the full details? That shit dragged on for years with inquest after inquest.
She inherited a situation that was nothing of her own making and yet you pin it on her and say she is more culpable than the administration at the time.

I've seen a few Thatcher threads on here in my short time and given opinion is so polarised, I'd be amaazed if we've ever had a convert either way.

 

[moses]

I appreciate this debate may have died out, but that just does not make sense. What the feck was she supposed to do? When did she really have access to the full details? That shit dragged on for years with inquest after inquest.
She inherited a situation that was nothing of her own making and yet you pin it on her and say she is more culpable than the administration at the time.

I've seen a few Thatcher threads on here in my short time and given opinion is so polarised, I'd be amaazed if we've ever had a convert either way.

I was answering a post that said it had nothing to do with her as she wasn't in power. Bloody Sunday became much more than one incident because of the way it was handled by the British State. The army had shot and killed it's own unarmed civillians outside their homes. Imagine it was in Shepards Bush, now you tell me how it could have played out differently? An enquiry maybe? Some respect for the dead? Too much?

I acknowledged there is a deabte to be had about her overall, but in terms of Northern Ireland there really isn't. She bred sympathy in The Republic with her attitude to the Northern situation. So in terms of turning the Bloody Sunday shootings into a massive injustice and a symbol for British disinterest in catholic rights and thus fuelling the violence and ill feeling, yes, she is to blame as much as anyone. If you can argue then fine, but the as I said 'it was like that when I got here' doesn't cut it as the cover up was just as damaging overall.

edit - as for the bolded bit. That's simply not true. There was one immediately, all wrapped up in two months and cleared the military. The one that actually investigated was almost 30 years later.

 

[Jippy]

I was answering a post that said it had nothing to do with her as she wasn't in power. Bloody Sunday became much more than one incident because of the way it was handled by the British State. The army had shot and killed it's own unarmed civillians outside their homes. Imagine it was in Shepards Bush, now you tell me how it could have played out differently? An enquiry maybe? Some respect for the dead? Too much?

I acknowledged there is a deabte to be had about her overall, but in terms of Northern Ireland there really isn't. She bred sympathy in The Republic with her attitude to the Northern situation. So in terms of turning the Bloody Sunday shootings into a massive injustice and a symbol for British disinterest in catholic rights and thus fuelling the violence and ill feeling, yes, she is to blame as much as anyone. If you can argue then fine, but the as I said 'it was like that when I got here' doesn't cut it as the cover up was just as damaging overall.

edit - as for the bolded bit. That's simply not true. There was one immediately, all wrapped up in two months and cleared the military. The one that actually investigated was almost 30 years later.

Tbf, it was years ago that I studied it at school and maybe I remember it wrong. Maybe it was the repeated calls for a proper inquiry I am thinking of.

I can understand the feeling of injustice but Republicans were just as happy to blow up civilians, including kids, so they can hardly get on their moral high horse.