[Ali Dia]

It’s really starting to bother me the way he’s still flying below the radar of the media and pundits. He’s been absolutely top class for ages now but not getting any recognition for this in any of the analysis. When is he going to get the credit he deserves?!

I think it’s so easy stand out in this team if you can win the ball in dangerous areas because we’ve been so light on tacklers and physicality and very often bullied out of games where our players probaly have more ability but less fight. I always love a gritty player who tries to lead by example. He’s much better on the ball than he’s given credit for too.

That’s why I’m not giving up on Rasmus either. I believe it’ll still all eventually come together for him and opposition alway know he’s there scrapping away. If we can grab another player or two with that mindset and physicality I think we are good. I think Nuno Mendez is a great shout but not looking likely till the summer unfortunately. He will really open up the left side of the pitch being able to beat his man and get more balls across the box for the likes of Ugarte Bruno Amad and Rasmus to connect with. Scrappy goals win tight games and he’s another problem for the opposition to have to plan for. I reckon Dalot will be really good on the right once he goes back there.

 

[pacifictheme]

I feel like he gets booked too much, but I guess that comes with the territory. Think he's been great so far, one of our very few decent players so far this season, maybe even our best.

 

[bosnian_red]

It’s really starting to bother me the way he’s still flying below the radar of the media and pundits. He’s been absolutely top class for ages now but not getting any recognition for this in any of the analysis. When is he going to get the credit he deserves?!

Scholes praised him yesterday and seems like a fan, was saying any of our midfielders could play alongside him, they just can't play without him. Also wasn't too harsh on him for Gakpos goal where he vacated the RB position after he cleared the ball (where tbf if I can criticize one thing from Ugarte it'd be that moment, made it a panic stations situation for De Ligt).

 

[Carl]

It’s really starting to bother me the way he’s still flying below the radar of the media and pundits. He’s been absolutely top class for ages now but not getting any recognition for this in any of the analysis. When is he going to get the credit he deserves?!

Long may it continue. They can't all take shots trying to knock him down if he was never up there in the first place.

 

[Dannn411]

That really just shows the importance of looking at stats in context. I remember multiple occasions of him dribbling out of tight spots so would take the dribble completed stat with a huge pinch of salt. Plus, I would see him getting involved in 16 ground duels as a positive. Even if he doesn’t win every one, he’s still causing problems for the other team in possession. Did any other player have more ground duels than 16? How many won more than 7?

Was just going to say this. He wriggled out of so many tight spots, I was actually so impressed. I find that dribble stat very difficult to believe. Unless a dribble is being defined differently.

 

[RedIan]

Wasnt so long ago many Red cafe posters were saying he cant pass and hes not all that… how wrong can you be.

 

[antohan]

It’s really starting to bother me the way he’s still flying below the radar of the media and pundits. He’s been absolutely top class for ages now but not getting any recognition for this in any of the analysis. When is he going to get the credit he deserves?!

Better go unnoticed, next you know he starts getting special refereeing "attention" and biases building up.

That really just shows the importance of looking at stats in context. I remember multiple occasions of him dribbling out of tight spots so would take the dribble completed stat with a huge pinch of salt. Plus, I would see him getting involved in 16 ground duels as a positive. Even if he doesn’t win every one, he’s still causing problems for the other team in possession. Did any other player have more ground duels than 16? How many won more than 7?

What stats wouldn't capture is something he does really well, which is disrupting the man on the ball and shepherding them onto AN Other dispossessing them. It's a team sport. after all.

Similar with "dribbles". I've never been worried with him on the ball and wouldn't pay much attention to that stat. I know he will extricate himself from tight spots... or else he draws a foul. You will very rarely see someone nicking the ball off him. Ultimately that's what you care about, him not losing the ball, not whether he is prime Denilson.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Wasnt so long ago many Red cafe posters were saying he cant pass and hes not all that… how wrong can you be.

If you haven't learned by now the majority on here seem to watch our games via radio, now you now.
He's precisely what is needed for the role he's in, what is most exciting is his age

 

[Escobar]

I think Ugarte was solid today, but people are getting carried away. Like Mainoo, he was a mixed bag. Some moments of real quality, yet also poor at times.

Good:

35/40 passes completed (88%)
5/5 long balls completed
3/4 tackles won
3 fouls drawn

Bad:

0/3 dribbles completed
7/16 ground duels won
Dribbled past - 4 times

This is why one should watch games and only then look at stats, they can be misleading. I did not think he lost more than half of his ground duels, and also dribbled past can be a wide term. Overall, he was very very good yesterday and won the midfield battle most times against a much more in form team

 

[Cutch]

It’s really starting to bother me the way he’s still flying below the radar of the media and pundits. He’s been absolutely top class for ages now but not getting any recognition for this in any of the analysis. When is he going to get the credit he deserves?!

I think its to do with the popular insane narrative that's spread about our summer recruitment being poor and the opportunity to pile in further on INEOS/SJR. Neville went with it again only about a week or so back. Giving Ugarte credit would mean some backtracking, particularly when Mazraoui also has been so good, and Yoro is starting to show why he was seen as such a coup. That even before you look at the dross/bad eggs and the wages that we got off the books.

We live in hope though

 

[Tom Van Persie]

Wasnt so long ago many Red cafe posters were saying he cant pass and hes not all that… how wrong can you be.

Always felt like the posters saying that we're just repeating what they had heard rather than forming their own opinion. There was an unfair narrative going around about Ugarte in the summer.

 

[sullydnl]

I can't understand it at all. Still 23 as well, brilliant signing for us, ludicrous sale for them.

He was quite good for them initially, but by the end it was pretty clear he just didn't fit their system.

Imagine if rather than him playing his current seek-and-destroy role alongside another midfielder, we instead asked him to play a disciplined, positional game as a #6 where he needs to hold space instead of hunting for the ball, and has to be progressive & (in Enrique's words) "creative" in possession. Then you see their issue. He was just a bad fit for what they needed.

The weird thing wasn't them selling. It was the narrative that built around Ugarte off the back of that, as if his still very obvious strengths wouldn't apply to other teams.

 

[Foolsgold21]

Thought he was a dud with all his appearances under ETH - made up to be very very wrong about him.

Under Ruud / Amorim he has really performed well and is exactly what we have been lacking in the middle for years.

Also love that he is a big game player, has thrived at City, Liverpool and was our best player against Arsenal.

 

[FriedClams]

pages 17-19 of this thread are gold

 

[lex talionis]

There's a great piece in The Athletic on Ugarte's outstanding performance yesterday.

I'm not sure what the rules are here regarding linking an article that's behind a paywall so I won't do so here, but if anyone get The Athletic you are highly encouraged to check it out. But hopefully it's ok for me to paraphrase a point asserted as fact that I thought was only a matter of speculation, which is that ETH needed convincing to sign Ugarte.

 

[Remember the geese]

But hopefully it's ok for me to paraphrase a point asserted as fact that I thought was only a matter of speculation, which is that ETH needed convincing to sign Ugarte.

Yes, this was always the case. Ten Hag wanted Amrabat and to keep McTominay.

 

[lex talionis]

Yes, this was always the case. Ten Hag wanted Amrabat and to keep McTominay.

Fascinating. I didn't know much about Ugarte but from what little I saw of him what I saw was a substantial upgrade on Amrabat and McTominay, but both of whom whose best days were behind them.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

There's a great piece in The Athletic on Ugarte's outstanding performance yesterday.

I'm not sure what the rules are here regarding linking an article that's behind a paywall so I won't do so here, but if anyone get The Athletic you are highly encouraged to check it out. But hopefully it's ok for me to paraphrase a point asserted as fact that I thought was only a matter of speculation, which is that ETH needed convincing to sign Ugarte.

No reason you can’t share the link. Please go ahead.

 

[pacifictheme]

There's a great piece in The Athletic on Ugarte's outstanding performance yesterday.

I'm not sure what the rules are here regarding linking an article that's behind a paywall so I won't do so here, but if anyone get The Athletic you are highly encouraged to check it out. But hopefully it's ok for me to paraphrase a point asserted as fact that I thought was only a matter of speculation, which is that ETH needed convincing to sign Ugarte.

I am fairly sure ten hag said this in an interview himself at some point.

 

[Remember the geese]

Fascinating. I didn't know much about Ugarte but from what little I saw of him what I saw was a substantial upgrade on Amrabat and McTominay, but both of whom whose best days were behind them.

Yeah, Ugarte is a far superior player to both.

 

[RuudTom83]

Wasnt so long ago many Red cafe posters were saying he cant pass and hes not all that… how wrong can you be.

Give it another 90 minutes and they will be circling again, miss place a pass and the Cafe will have you sold by the end of the week.

 

[golden_blunder]

There's a great piece in The Athletic on Ugarte's outstanding performance yesterday.

I'm not sure what the rules are here regarding linking an article that's behind a paywall so I won't do so here, but if anyone get The Athletic you are highly encouraged to check it out. But hopefully it's ok for me to paraphrase a point asserted as fact that I thought was only a matter of speculation, which is that ETH needed convincing to sign Ugarte.

That’s not surprising as ETH really didn’t care about midfield. Football was reduced to a basketball match, only one where he allows the other team to have at least 60% of the ball

 

[RuudTom83]

There's a great piece in The Athletic on Ugarte's outstanding performance yesterday.

I'm not sure what the rules are here regarding linking an article that's behind a paywall so I won't do so here, but if anyone get The Athletic you are highly encouraged to check it out. But hopefully it's ok for me to paraphrase a point asserted as fact that I thought was only a matter of speculation, which is that ETH needed convincing to sign Ugarte.

Another thing to note is EtH had to lose McTom in the summer before Ugarte could arrive, something he didn't want to do.

Then he said Ugarte would need a few months to show his true form once he did arrive.

Both points I can sympathise with and are perfectly reasonable takes on his arrival tbh.

I'm just happy United now have a someone with a bit of fight and urgency in the midfield.

 

[McLvnsMuse]

Lots to like about his game.

I think playing him next to a traditional deep lying playmaker (Carrick/Matic) would give attacking fullbacks the freedom to really push forward and stretch the opponents.

We need to replace Casa and Ericksen. We also can’t play Ugarte/Kobbie 3 times in 8 days without seeing a big dip in performance.

 

[Marwood]

Lots to like about his game.

I think playing him next to a traditional deep lying playmaker (Carrick/Matic) would give attacking fullbacks the freedom to really push forward and stretch the opponents.

We need to replace Casa and Ericksen. We also can’t play Ugarte/Kobbie 3 times in 8 days without seeing a big dip in performance.

Yeah Collyer needs to start getting minutes just so there's a backup that can at least run and move with a bit of pace.

 

[sullydnl]

There's a great piece in The Athletic on Ugarte's outstanding performance yesterday.

I'm not sure what the rules are here regarding linking an article that's behind a paywall so I won't do so here, but if anyone get The Athletic you are highly encouraged to check it out. But hopefully it's ok for me to paraphrase a point asserted as fact that I thought was only a matter of speculation, which is that ETH needed convincing to sign Ugarte.

Tbf to ETH, he was eventually brought round on the signing. And it's not like it's a particularly unusual thing. For example, Klopp famously had to be convinced to sign Salah over Julian Brandt.

The lesson being that that's how things should work. The recruitment team should by definition should be better at identifying the right players than the manager. The manager should have input, but also be open to being persuaded by the recruitment team. And they should have robust discussions to ensure transfer mistakes aren't made.

The problem isn't that ETH needed to be persuaded to sign Ugarte. It's that he wasn't successfully persuaded to avoid signings like Antony and Casemiro.

 

[mav_9me]

 

[Stig]

Yeah Collyer needs to start getting minutes just so there's a backup that can at least run and move with a bit of pace.

How is Dan Gore ?

He got a few minutes a few seasons ago, but I don't think that we have seen him since.

 

[AR87]

Are you saying I don't watch him regularly? Is this a trope or the reason he didn't get into the PSG team. A simple question, how often do you see him pass through the lines?

Passing through the lines isn't the sole determination of quality on the ball

 

[Tallis]

His "on the ball" qualities have surprised me. I cant recall which game but during the Ruud phase, I saw him ping a cross field ball from one side to the other. The ball had a low and fast trajectory - very reminiscent of Scholes.

At the beginning of the season, I wondered whether we should have signed Amadou Onana instead given his physicality and EPL experience. Now, I am confident we got the better player.

 

[Tallis]

How is Dan Gore ?

He got a few minutes a few seasons ago, but I don't think that we have seen him since.

He has had various injuries over the last 18 months. He has been playing for the U21 and building back up. He has more quality on the ball than Collyer but not the physicality.

 

[statpadder]

He was a beast but only slight criticism is that he needs to work on his clearances. 3-4 times he didn’t clear well enough. One of them resulted in a goal. One was a horrible clearance that could have caused a 4v2 counter but instead became the final Harry’s chance.

I hope Amorim picks up on this.

 

[SonOfFergie]

Bedding in nicely. Calm on the ball, great tackler. Has a good pass on him. Great energy and hunger. Humility. Everything we need. Will be a feature of this Amorim team.

 

[IrishRedDevil]

Love me some South American grit

 

[saivet]

The technique of a rushed clearance involves absolutely skying the fecking ball at no risk of interception. That was nothing like a rushed clearance, zero.

He didn't strike it cleanly, that's for sure, which is also a sign of a rushed clearance. Personally I think it was a hoof forward to clear / hope get us back on the attack.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

He was a beast but only slight criticism is that he needs to work on his clearances. 3-4 times he didn’t clear well enough. One of them resulted in a goal. One was a horrible clearance that could have caused a 4v2 counter but instead became the final Harry’s chance.

I hope Amorim picks up on this.

Good to know your terrible takes aren’t just confined to the Fernandes thread.

 

[antohan]

He didn't strike it cleanly, that's for sure, which is also a sign of a rushed clearance. Personally I think it was a hoof forward to clear / hope get us back on the attack.

Those are different things though, aren't they? Plenty of safe clearance options, but that one in particular also "a hoof that can get us back on track".

He definitely didn't strike the ball as cleanly as he would have wanted, but I'm absolutely certain he deliberately went for penetration down the flank, not "just clear the ball".

You call it a hopeful hoof but I'm used to seeing him play those diagonal balls instinctively and to great effect for the NT. Always thought it was quite remarkable (for a player that is otherwise not about pinging balls around) how he exploited that time and again. There we have Araújo, Bentancur and Valverde knocking the ball around to build something up and, out of nowhere, it winds up being Ugarte that kicks off a dangerous transition. Always found it funny/odd, but also very effective as it surprised rivals as much as me.

It wasn't until we got Amorim in that the penny dropped for me that this habit of his must come from playing 3-4-3 and constantly looking for the wingbacks. D'oh!

 

[JJ12]

He didn't strike it cleanly, that's for sure, which is also a sign of a rushed clearance. Personally I think it was a hoof forward to clear / hope get us back on the attack.

He looked over to Bruno and then hooked his foot around the ball.

Maybe it was rushed seeing as 3/4 scousers were breathing down his neck, which makes it all the more brilliant.

 

[golden_blunder]

It’s clear that he likes playing for Amorim

 

[DWelbz19]

Another thing to note is EtH had to lose McTom in the summer before Ugarte could arrive, something he didn't want to do.

Then he said Ugarte would need a few months to show his true form once he did arrive.

Both points I can sympathise with and are perfectly reasonable takes on his arrival tbh.

I'm just happy United now have a someone with a bit of fight and urgency in the midfield.

If you want to sympathise less for ten Hag — he wanted to keep McTominay and sign Amrabat on a permanent deal over signing Ugarte. The club opted for the latter.