It's the formation and personel. The 2 wingers and especially the AM would have to be very disciplined players while defending. If not you're going to leave your DM hopelessly outnumbered on the break time and time again, with midfielders running past at will. To me, this formation is just a needlessly risky version of a 4-4-2, as in the latter the same two midfielders could start closer together, providing more stability in midfield. A two striker formation usually has one more creative striker anyway, coupled with the wingers pushing up the AM just seems like attacking overkill that will cost you while defending. And if you want more options through the middle from midfield, there are better alternatives, like the 4-2-3-1.
Manchester United vs. Wigan Athletic
- Thread starter Damien
- Start date
- Status
It's the formation and personel. The 2 wingers and especially the AM would have to be very disciplined players while defending. If not you're going to leave your DM hopelessly outnumbered on the break time and time again, with midfielders running past at will. To me, this formation is just a needlessly risky version of a 4-4-2, as in the latter the same two midfielders could start closer together, providing more stability in midfield. A two striker formation usually has one more creative striker anyway, coupled with the wingers pushing up the AM just seems like attacking overkill that will cost you while defending. And if you want more options through the middle from midfield, there are better alternatives, like the 4-2-3-1.
It won't happen, but I'd love to see us play a wide diamond for this one:
Making use of Powell and Januzaj once we've got a commanding hold on the game.
I think in real life we'll see a continuation of the normal 4-2-3-1, with Carrick alongside Cleverley in the middle, Kag on the left and Rooney behind RvP. It will be interesting to see how up for it Wayne is.
It's definitely a
worthy line up - but could Carrick get over-run in the midfield?Plus, I don't think Rooney will even be in the squad.
It'd be great if we could win this convincingly. 3-0 would be nice.
At least it'd get all of the spastics off our back for a while at least.
At least it'd get all of the spastics off our back for a while at least.
Formations do have an effect on what players start which correlate with the style of play. I agree with you that certain game situations cause formations to break and shift, believing that the best teams/players adapt to these moments. However there needs to be a balance struck between the formation, personnel and style of play to achieve success.
I think everyone, us, the players, Moyes, even the Equaliser could do with a commanding 2 or 3 nil. Settle us all down a bit.
I don't see why anyone expressing concern should be labelled a spastic, that's just top red bollocks. Anyone calling for Moyes' head this early is obviously a clown and is to be ignored, but it's pretty normal to express some concern. We've had a poor preseason, have been inactive in the market, and lost our most valuable asset in Ferguson. So don't be so quick to label someone a spastic over expressing slight concern, there's a certain level expected at United, even in preseason.
I said it in another thread, but I think we might actually lose tomorrow. Wigan still have a lot of their good players and should be well up for another day out at Wembley. They've got competitive game under their belts (and a good win) and it will be a tough game for us. I'll plump for a 3-2 win to United... or a 2-1 Wigan win.
It'll be tricky. We haven't quite found our rhythm yet under Moyes (which is perfectly ok, transitioning from Fergie to someone new was hardly going to be a one month job). What we need is for our quality players to step up despite any rustiness. If they do that, we have too much for Wigan.
Cleverley and Carrick have to start in midfield. They're very obviously first-choice at the moment for me. Anderson looks as erratic as ever, whereas Cleverley has been pretty solid this pre-season.
Cleverley and Carrick have to start in midfield. They're very obviously first-choice at the moment for me. Anderson looks as erratic as ever, whereas Cleverley has been pretty solid this pre-season.
It'll go to penalties and we will lose. Moyes will miss out on the first big silverware of the season and the top reds will want him out.
Pretty sure Anderson's had more playing time than Cleverley during preseason.
He also looked better in every game. If only he learned how to defend better. He can be really class going forward.
CLev looked lost out there yesterday.
CLev looked lost out there yesterday.
Bit of a long read but here's the Ask The Opposition for Wigan: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/ask-the-opposition-2013-14-wigan-athletic-community-shield.375253/
Read it, great work.
I know that you like Cleverley too much, but he has been shit yesterday and in many periods of other games. I think that Ando has had a superior pre-season compared to him so I think he has earned a start more than Cleverley.
Really hope we go for;
De Gea
Rafael Vidic Evans Evra
Zaha Carrick Ando Nani
Kagawa
RVP
Rio will need a rest and I wouldn't want to rush Valencia. I think after Kagawas poor performance he needs game time, if he's not fit to start would like to see Januzaj given a go, but would expect Giggs or Welbeck. I think Ando has been a bit better than Clev but really doens't make that much difference between them.
De Gea
Rafael Vidic Evans Evra
Zaha Carrick Ando Nani
Kagawa
RVP
Rio will need a rest and I wouldn't want to rush Valencia. I think after Kagawas poor performance he needs game time, if he's not fit to start would like to see Januzaj given a go, but would expect Giggs or Welbeck. I think Ando has been a bit better than Clev but really doens't make that much difference between them.
It won't happen, but I'd love to see us play a wide diamond for this one:
Making use of Powell and Januzaj once we've got a commanding hold on the game.
The diamond formation doesn't work with wingers. Swap Nani and Zaha with Cleverley and Anderson, it could work but as you have made it, there isn't a manager who would have played it. It is simply one of the worst formations I have ever seen.
I think in real life we'll see a continuation of the normal 4-2-3-1, with Carrick alongside Cleverley in the middle, Kag on the left and Rooney behind RvP. It will be interesting to see how up for it Wayne is.
I think our best line-up currently is:
DDG
Rafael Rio Vidic Evra
Carrick Cleverley
Nani Kagawa Welbeck
RvP
I'd imagine Jones or Evans will start this game though. Hopefully Chicharito, Januzaj, and Zaha get some playing time tomorrow as well.
I'd put Anderson in for cleverley for our best lineup, cleverley hasn't impressed in the slightest this pre season, and you could argue Anderson was better when he played last season, although neither were anything special.
I think Cleverley was great for a 2-3 month period last season which coincided with the best football we played. The quick passing between Nani, Kagawa, Cleverley and Welbeck has the potential to be very fluid and great to watch, I'm excited to see what a line-up like that would do.
I think that's a touch harsh mate, we used Diamond last year and beat Newcastle 3-0. That's not to say it's a great formation, but it was in Fergie's inventory of tactics. Like I said before, it completely backfired when we used it against West Ham in the cup and drew 1-1.
I like diamond formation. I don't like 'diamond' formation if two of the three midfielders are in fact wingers. It doesn't make sense, it cannot work. One of diamond formation is the ability to keep the ball and to be strong defensively, but if you swap two central midfielders with two wingers, you won't keep the ball and not be strong defensively. Eventually the formation would change to a 4-4-2 with Kagawa in midfield and the wingers playing wingers. It's ok playing with diamond formation, as long as you are implementing it correctly. And that was a terrible implementation.
Weird. Any reason?
Any whispers of the squad that has travelled down? Would be nice to know who is fit and who isn't considering we've had a few niggles.
I hope Rooney is in the squad tomorrow
When you play the diamond the whole point imo is that you're narrow, you have 3 tucked in players allowing a third guy to push quite high off the two strikers. Personally I thought we played it weird last season, trying to get the two tucked in midfielders to push out a little bit which forced the guy at the tip, typically Rooney, to have to do a lot of tracking back.
Using two wingers for the two tucked in midfielders doesn't make sense to me, I don't get what they bring from that position. The centre would be too congested for them to use their pace and if you wanted them to push wide it would defeat the point, plus I don't think Kagawa would be as good at tracking back as Rooney.
The diamond has its uses and we used it alright for spells but there was a lot of game time where you could see the inherent flaws in it for the players we have. Clev and Ando just don't have enough between them to be creative in it, and so you're looking for the guy at the tip to do it all. Neither of them has big stamina to get up and down, they're both good passers but not great passers so they don't really play people in, and particularly for Clev rather than Ando they don't really find a way past people. To see a game out they could be useful but as a long term solution I think it would just exploit their limitations more than anything.
Going by pre-season
DDG
Rafael - Rio - Vidic - Evra
Carrick - Anderson
Zaha - Januzaj - Welbeck
RVP
Anderson plays poorly for most of his pre-season games but puts in an occasional 'driving run', which is like caf catnip. Cleverley is consistently good in all his pre-season outings except one (a typically shitty testimonial in which most players are poor), and excellent in a couple, but helps the team produce good performances with simple, effective play, always keeping the ball.
One week later 'Anderson has done much better than Cleverley this pre-season.'
One week later 'Anderson has done much better than Cleverley this pre-season.'
The point of a diamond is to increase your use of central players. Using Zaha and Nani as your midfielders either side of Carrick is retarded.
Anderson has been better than Cleverley in pre-season. Mind you, that's not saying much for Anderson
De Gea
Rafael
Ferdinand
Vidic
Evra
Valencia
Anderson
Carrick
Nani (if fit)
RVP
Hernandez
4-0 United
Rafael
Ferdinand
Vidic
Evra
Valencia
Anderson
Carrick
Nani (if fit)
RVP
Hernandez
4-0 United
Yeah I conceded earlier my lineup was too 'wing-attack' orientated, I guess my original thinking was for Zaha/Carrick/Nani to play narrow but break wide on the attack. Luckily I'm not a football manager.
The forum seems much less forgiving when you say something silly up here in the mains, whereas in the newbs, nobody seems to notice
I'm glad to receive intelligent rebuttal.Anderson plays poorly for most of his pre-season games but puts in an occasional 'driving run', which is like caf catnip. Cleverley is consistently good in all his pre-season outings except one (a typically shitty testimonial in which most players are poor), and excellent in a couple, but helps the team produce good performances with simple, effective play, always keeping the ball.
One week later 'Anderson has done much better than Cleverley this pre-season.'
Cleverley wasn't excellent in any of the pre season games, and he was only "good" in one or two. He was pretty disappointing in most of them, unless you have ridiculously low expectations of him. Anderson has impressed me much more most games.
Yeah I conceded earlier my lineup was too 'wing-attack' orientated, I guess my original thinking was for Zaha/Carrick/Nani to play narrow but break wide on the attack. Luckily I'm not a football manager.
The forum seems much less forgiving when you say something silly up here in the mains, whereas in the newbs, nobody seems to notice
Well there's no saying you're wrong of we're right, just seems an odd formation but don't be put off by any questions/criticism you get, no one's an expert here.
It was just another way of saying "gut feeling"
Probably shouldn't underestimate Wigan too much. They haven't changed a huge amount in playing staff from the team who beat Man City!
Anderson plays poorly for most of his pre-season games but puts in an occasional 'driving run', which is like caf catnip. Cleverley is consistently good in all his pre-season outings except one (a typically shitty testimonial in which most players are poor), and excellent in a couple, but helps the team produce good performances with simple, effective play, always keeping the ball.
One week later 'Anderson has done much better than Cleverley this pre-season.'
Cleverley hasn't been excellent in any game of the pre-season (haven't seen the second game against Japanese teams though), has been good/okay in most of them, mediocre at some others and awful against Sevilla. Ando has been much better during the entire pre-season and I always have said that a fit Ando is much much better than Cleverley, though a fit Ando isn't something that happen many times.
It won't happen, but I'd love to see us play a wide diamond for this one:
Making use of Powell and Januzaj once we've got a commanding hold on the game.
I think in real life we'll see a continuation of the normal 4-2-3-1, with Carrick alongside Cleverley in the middle, Kag on the left and Rooney behind RvP. It will be interesting to see how up for it Wayne is.
I love how this post has caused mayhem in this thread
Real football. Praise the Lord.
Consider how desperate Moyes is to win some silverware and how badly we played during pre-season I believe we should play it simple. CM should be beefened up to avoid embarresment
-----------------De Gea---------------------
Rafael-------Smalling----Vidic-----------Evra
----------------Jones-------------------
Zaha-----Carrick-------Ando-----------Nani
----------------RVP------------------
-----------------De Gea---------------------
Rafael-------Smalling----Vidic-----------Evra
----------------Jones-------------------
Zaha-----Carrick-------Ando-----------Nani
----------------RVP------------------
Annoys me this is against Wigan rather than a top 6 club.
- Status