Teams dont lose because of the formation
Manchester United vs. Wigan Athletic
- Thread starter Damien
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It won't happen, but I'd love to see us play a wide diamond for this one:
Making use of Powell and Januzaj once we've got a commanding hold on the game.
I think in real life we'll see a continuation of the normal 4-2-3-1, with Carrick alongside Cleverley in the middle, Kag on the left and Rooney behind RvP. It will be interesting to see how up for it Wayne is.
1 proper midfielder, yeah, not happening.
What? They clearly can, and they clearly have.
It won't happen, but I'd love to see us play a wide diamond for this one:
Making use of Powell and Januzaj once we've got a commanding hold on the game.
I think in real life we'll see a continuation of the normal 4-2-3-1, with Carrick alongside Cleverley in the middle, Kag on the left and Rooney behind RvP. It will be interesting to see how up for it Wayne is.
When we did this last season we didn't play someone like Zaha or Nani in the line of three (as this is a 4312) . Kagawa did well in that formation, for my money, along with Cleverley and Carrick, with Rooney at the top of the diamond. Nani would be better off at the tip of the diamond, though I think he could also play as one of the front 2.
I don't think the formation itself is inherently bad, the problem as has been pointed out is more that I've selected three attack minded midfielders - we used diamond a couple of times last year, notably when we beat Newcastle 3-0 and against West Ham in the cup where we had Scholes anchored and Rooney behind the front men.
An interesting thought, did we use Nani up top last season?
An interesting thought, did we use Nani up top last season?
United went 4-4-2 against Barcelona in the '11 Champions League final with Rooney dropping back on Busquets. It was suicide.
Have a look at the highlights . Explain exactly how the formation is involved in the goals?.
What a great big steaming pile of bollocks
What a great big steaming pile of bollocks
Mate, I don't know if you're on a WUM, or if you're genuinely trying to fight for the point that a team's formation doesn't affect the outcome of a game, but seriously, do you actually believe the positions taken up by the players on the field makes no difference to which team will succeed? Formations are the bread and butter of tactics, if they didn't make any difference, every team would play a mandatory 4-4-2. The fact is, formations have evolved and adapted over the years to best utilise the strengths and skills of different squads.
That 2011 UCL final is a great example of how a formation can limit the potential of a team if the manager gets it wrong, Barca came out with a wide 4-3-3, with Busquets anchored to deal with our center forward, they largely outnumbered us in midfield and repeatedly caught us with men-over on the break. This is one of literally thousands of examples of formations affecting the game's outcome.
I'm pretty certain to argue that formation doesn't make a difference, is a non starter.
You've a lot to understand about the game if you fail to realise how formations can directly effect results my friend.
Ah, football is back.
Ok so to beat 442 than all one has to do is use a wide 433. Seriously? Too many people spending too much time playing FM.....
Where in the post did he say that?
You're wrong pal, formations play a massive part in football.
Just to go over a couple of other points. No matter what formation a team uses it is possible to use the formation and play a variety of different tactics. For example 433 can be used if you are a counter attacking side. 433 can be used if you want to play with width or if you want to play narrow. 433 can be used if you want to play long direct football or if you want to use a short passing game. 433 can be used if you want to defend high or if you want to defend deep. 433 can be used if you want to defend by channeling the opposition inside or if you want to force them wide.
The formation doesnt win the game, its the playing model. its how you get your players to react to certain situations and why.
If you have 442 what happens if you use an overlapping fullback?. Suddenly that looks like 343. What then happens if that overlapping fullback loses the ball and they opposition counter attack quickly. Suddenly you have 3 defenders having to deal with the situation. So is it the formation thats dictating how those 3 defenders handle the attack or is it the principles of defending with respect to the 1st defenders job in that situation, the 2nd defenders job in that situation and the 3rd defenders job. Im assuming you know what i mean by the 1st defender and 2nd defender with respect to defending principles.
You're arguing the lack of importance of formations by highlighting the importance of formations, you do realise this?
That's not what I was getting at. I said that teams select formation based upon the strengths and weaknesses of their squad which only scratches the surface - because of course there are other factors that decide which formation is optimal for any given set of players.
Yes, your opponents' formation needs to be taken into account, but I certainly wasn't saying 433 beats 442 every time, just that under the circumstances, given the kind of pass and move, quick counter attack style Barcelona employed, 442 was not the correct choice to play that night.
It's got nothing to do with playing FM. Seriously my friend, I'd stop now - because I can guarantee that almost everybody that posts at the Caf will disagree with your point about formations being irrelevant.
its going whoosh right over your head isnt it. Im showing you that the formation isnt the key thing because no matter what formation you use its possible to play a certain way. If the formation dictated the stylwe of play then it would be the key factor. Because the style of play or playing model can be applied to all formations then its not the formation that is key. Thats why claiming 442 lost a champions league final is completely missing what really happened.
You have gone over my head, and everybody else too... You're arguing formations are irrelevant in football!
Definitely not.
First Barca goal: As always when Barca attack like this, Messi drops slightly and drags a defender with him. The two wide fowards move infield into the space he's like which is now occupied by one less defender than it should be. Xavi finds Pedro int he space Messi creates.
How the formation created it: Messi, middle of the attacking 3, drops deeper than the other two creating space for them.
(Bonus points for how we enabled it: Evra trying to man mark Messi. Why? Just left a giant hole down our left that Vidic had to scramble across to try and cover).
United goal: Rooney, playing in the hole, picks up the ball in an advanced midfield position. Hernadnez, the centre forward playing ahead of Rooney's number 10, immediately begins his run towards goal and Dani Alves goes with him. Pique is caught flat footed and turns slowly when Rooney slips the ball to Giggs, and every Barca defender other than Dani Alves tries to get the ball from Giggs, leaving Rooney with space to run onto and finish.
How the formation created it: Hernandez playing ahead of Rooney in a 4231 that season and in general has been almost as useful for pulling defences away from the ball as he has been scoring himself. Giggs is the member of the deep midfield 2 with a license to get forward which he did throughout that campaign by popping out when we were on the attack (see: goals created v Marseille (H), Chelsea (H)).
How Barca enabled it: Pique went to sleep basically, and again a fullback got pulled out of position by a centreforward. When the ball is played to Giggs every available defender goes to cover him, leaving us with two unmarked players in goalscoring positions (Park and Rooney).
Second Barca goal: Messi drops deeper than the other forwards again, and the wide forwards push inwards. This gives Barca a 3v2 situation in their advanced midfield area in this attack - Carrick and Park (who swapped to CM for this half) aren't pressing so it was a simple matter to get past them. Evra sees what is about to happen and tries to close him down but everyone else is content to try and contain him instead of pressing.
How the formation created it: Messi drops deeper than the other attacking 3, creating an overload against our static deep midfield 2. Usually Rooney would drop back to help in such situations as he had for the rest of that campaign, but he'd been specifically instructed to mark Busquets, who almost never gets forward so he was out of the equation.
Third goal: Bit of a clusterfeck
We've basically used 1 proper midfielder for the past 3 years so it won't be too different...
If that was the case teams would be full of strikers such an outdated comment from you Stack!
I don't see why we can't go back to 7-2-1 anyway.
Rooney-RvP-Henriquez-Keane-Hernandez-Welbeck-Bebe
Carrick-Anderson
Vidic
Win 'errry thang.
Why did I start watching that video. Quickly just fecking turned it off going 
'what am I watching this shit for'.
I think we'll see a bit more of a 'game face' from the club as a whole. Switch on and focus for the season is required. We saw what happened in Sydney when the lads had a full week of preparation under their belts.
'what am I watching this shit for'.I think we'll see a bit more of a 'game face' from the club as a whole. Switch on and focus for the season is required. We saw what happened in Sydney when the lads had a full week of preparation under their belts.
Feeling that our stunning run of defeats and draws will continue, wide open pitch will suit wigan
De Gea
Rafael
Vidic
Evans
Evra
Cleverley
Carrick
Anderson
Valencia
Van Persie
Nani
Subs:
Lindegaard
Jones
Smalling
Giggs
Januzaj
Hernandez
Welbeck
Rafael
Vidic
Evans
Evra
Cleverley
Carrick
Anderson
Valencia
Van Persie
Nani
Subs:
Lindegaard
Jones
Smalling
Giggs
Januzaj
Hernandez
Welbeck
Official?
I know, I know
I know, I know
Anyone know what time this is on in Aus? I can't be bothered figuring it out for myself.
---------Rio----Vidic---------
Rafael--------------------Evra
------Carrick---Cleverley----
--Zaha-----Kagawa-----Nani
--------------RVP------------
Rafael--------------------Evra
------Carrick---Cleverley----
--Zaha-----Kagawa-----Nani
--------------RVP------------
Anderson would be to over worked for me...
Lovely jubbly
Zaha should play some part in this, he will rip them a new one with the width available at Wembley. Saying that so will Nani
Sub on Cleverley at the start of the 2nd half, jobs a good 'un.
It worked a treat against European nobodies like Schalke and Marseille, so why not Barca?
It worked against Chelsea as well.
In fairness it worked against Chelsea as well who were champions of England at the time. Still, Fergie would no doubt have been slaughtered if he'd played it safe. We'd have got beat whatever the line-up. That Barca side is one of the best ever.
We played 433 in 2009 vs Barca and still got beat.
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