It's funny, you always start off being quite level headed then when the opportunity to WUM arises you go to town on it. Like a sledgehammer and a stick of butter.
Manchester United vs. Arsenal
- Thread starter Damien
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It's funny, you always start off being quite level headed then when the opportunity to WUM arises you go to town on it. Like a sledgehammer and a stick of butter.
Arsenal will come for a draw.
I can see Arteta being sent off. Harshly.
Relax, he is taking the piss.
Yep, Moyes will play safe even at OT as he's still in the Everton lower club no money midset but we should batter Arsenal, especially at ours. I know they are top and have Ozil + a few of their own on form but we are made for them. Invincibles springs to mind...
He'll probably threaten to scalp Fellaini.
Somebody should :-)
Hes probably only about 5ft 5 after a scalping
I'd be disappointed if we approached this game in similar fashion to the one against Chelsea at Old Trafford.
I don't think Arsenal be approach this game with caution like Chelsea did in August, and that should benefit us.I am fine with Arsenal underestimating us.I want to see us step up the effort levels and get in their faces and that should wind the crowd up!!! I don't want to see a weak and insipid performance.Kagawa and Januzaj should both play along with Rooney and Robin.If fit Carrick and Cleverley also.Kagawa is used to playing left and Adnan is fine on the right.Let's get it right from the start.1-0 United!
We should all thank Arsenal for making this game meaningful again, for the first time in how many years?
Nice of you to join the party boys.
Nice of you to join the party boys.
Is there a Rafael fitness update yet?
If he's out of this, what is everyones order of preference for who plays there against Arsenal from the 3 feesible options (because lets get real, he's never playing Fabio there)? I'd say 1. Valencia 2. Smalling 3. Jones.
If he's out of this, what is everyones order of preference for who plays there against Arsenal from the 3 feesible options (because lets get real, he's never playing Fabio there)? I'd say 1. Valencia 2. Smalling 3. Jones.
Given the way he rolled his ankle I'd say it's safe to assume he'll miss out, which means Smalling at RB.
I wouldn't be surprised if this ended up being a damp squib of a game. An away point would be good for Arsenal and I suspect we'll adopt a "must not lose" approach. 0-0 or 1-1 IMO.
They are vulnerable on the wings, especially if Wenger selects Cazorla there.
On current form, I can't see United getting anything out of this game.
They might have joined the party but they will still leave early, as usual.
I always go for a draw when our rivals play each other as they both drop points. From a points point of view, a draw is not much better than a loss.
Unbeaten in eight.
We're grinding through games, rather than playing well
I'm up and down about this game. I do think that if any team can beat the league leaders having played so poorly all season it's us. On the other hand, if Fellaini plays we're fecked.
Miguel Delaney has done an interesting preview of the game.
It was a different time, and a different type of demand.
After Andrew Johnson struck a stoppage-time winner in March 2007 to give Everton both a 1-0 win over Arsenal and a significant boost in their push for a Europa League place, David Moyes happily reflected on his side's return.
"That is four points we have taken from Arsenal this season and hopefully that shows signs of progress."
Broadly speaking, that undeniably proved to be the case. Moyes's fine progress with Everton is one of the reasons he now finds himself at Old Trafford. As regards his record against Arsene Wenger and Arsenal, however, it wasn’t quite progress the Glaswegian has experienced.
If four points off the London side represented a fine performance for the 2006-07 campaign alone, the same cannot quite be said for the entirety of the six and a half years since. In that time, it is exactly that number of points Moyes has claimed against Wenger. His Everton side yielded no more than four draws. The Johnson goal actually represents the last time Moyes beat the French coach.
The contrast with his current club could not be starker. In the same period, United have only lost to Arsenal twice. Alex Ferguson won a remarkable nine of his last 12 games against Wenger.
Manchester United's record against Arsenal in all competitions since March 2007: DWWWLWWWWDWWLWWD (most recent first)
David Moyes's record against Arsenal in all competitions since March 2007: DDLLLLDLDLLLW (most recent first)
Although the drastic differences between the resources of the clubs means it still remains almost impossible to even begin to fairly assess Moyes, Sunday's fixture will at least provide a clear indication as regards one key individual strand in the job of replacing Ferguson.
One of the undeniable traits of the latter part of the Old Trafford legend's era was that he had finally figured out how to almost always beat one of his great rivals. United had simply worked Wenger out. If that run of results against Arsenal doesn't say enough, Ferguson was all too willing to explain it in his recent autobiography.
"In later years, we learned more about Arsene's thinking. Arsene had a template of how he sees his players and the way they play."
In response, Ferguson clearly developed a template of how to play a Wenger team: sit deep, hit hard, break fast. The pattern was repeated in all manner of games, from the devastating 2008-09 Champions League semi-final victory to a 2011 fifth-round FA Cup tie in which Ferguson fielded seven defenders but still won 2-0.
So far, so obvious; but it is perhaps the deeper specifics of that template which explain why Moyes’s record against Arsenal is comparatively under-par -- even accounting for the difference in resources.
Back in January 2010, after one of Everton's better recent performances against Arsenal, Steven Pienaar explained their approach.
"The game plan was to be aggressive in the midfield, not give them enough time, because we know if you give Arsenal two metres they will play you off the field."
Arsenal still left that field with a point, as Tomas Rosicky claimed a stoppage-time equaliser to make it 2-2. Ten months later, after Wenger's side turned that draw into a 2-1 win at Goodison Park, Phil Neville was speaking about a very different response to the same approach.
"They seem a little more resilient now," the former Everton man said of Arsenal. "You always fancy yourself to rough them up but we couldn’t do it and that is where they have improved."
In attempting to stifle Arsenal primarily through physical or aggressive challenges, it is arguable that Moyes was applying an approach Wenger had long since learned to deal with. Sure, the French coach always encountered trouble with Everton, but generally trumped them. The old stereotypes about his team were not quite so true. Stoke City, after all, provide a telling acid test which the London side almost always passed. Despite the perceptions about Tony Pulis's team, Wenger won every home game against them in the league and only lost two of 11 matches.
In his book, Ferguson also reveals a moment of realisation about all this.
.
"We didn't need to win the ball against Arsenal, we needed to intercept it. You need good payers who can intercept. We worked out that when the ball was played into [Cesc] Fabregas with his back to goal, he would turn round the corner and meet the return pass... so we would say to our players: 'Stay with the runner, then intercept the pass.' Then we counter-attacked quickly."
As it happens, United currently make the most interceptions of all 20 Premier League teams, with 17.2 per game. That is also up significantly from last season's 13.6, which was conversely one of the lowest in the league.
Naturally, there is a radical difference between achieving that through general play and then applying a concerted approach in an individual game. It is promising for Moyes, but may not quite transfer like that. What's more, the increased speed and number of Arsenal's interchanges -- as so gloriously emphasised by Jack Wilshere's goal against Norwich and the general movement of Mesut Ozil -- will demand even more and better interceptions.
Their flurried attacks have provided 22 goals and thereby the second best scoring record in the league, while rendering some of the best backlines irrelevant. United currently have one of the worst defensive records, with the 13 goals they have conceded only better than Fulham, Newcastle United, Norwich City, Crystal Palace and Sunderland.
Yet responding to that rampant attacking with more committed rigour may not actually be the correct route here.
This is a new Arsenal, but they have not been fully tested against an old approach.
For all the complications linked to Ferguson lingering, and all the comparisons with the drama of Matt Busby's retirement, this is one game when Moyes could benefit from a lengthy discussion with his predecessor. That could be key.
Otherwise, we may see a very different outcome to this famed fixture.
After Andrew Johnson struck a stoppage-time winner in March 2007 to give Everton both a 1-0 win over Arsenal and a significant boost in their push for a Europa League place, David Moyes happily reflected on his side's return.
"That is four points we have taken from Arsenal this season and hopefully that shows signs of progress."
Broadly speaking, that undeniably proved to be the case. Moyes's fine progress with Everton is one of the reasons he now finds himself at Old Trafford. As regards his record against Arsene Wenger and Arsenal, however, it wasn’t quite progress the Glaswegian has experienced.
If four points off the London side represented a fine performance for the 2006-07 campaign alone, the same cannot quite be said for the entirety of the six and a half years since. In that time, it is exactly that number of points Moyes has claimed against Wenger. His Everton side yielded no more than four draws. The Johnson goal actually represents the last time Moyes beat the French coach.
The contrast with his current club could not be starker. In the same period, United have only lost to Arsenal twice. Alex Ferguson won a remarkable nine of his last 12 games against Wenger.
Manchester United's record against Arsenal in all competitions since March 2007: DWWWLWWWWDWWLWWD (most recent first)
David Moyes's record against Arsenal in all competitions since March 2007: DDLLLLDLDLLLW (most recent first)
Although the drastic differences between the resources of the clubs means it still remains almost impossible to even begin to fairly assess Moyes, Sunday's fixture will at least provide a clear indication as regards one key individual strand in the job of replacing Ferguson.
One of the undeniable traits of the latter part of the Old Trafford legend's era was that he had finally figured out how to almost always beat one of his great rivals. United had simply worked Wenger out. If that run of results against Arsenal doesn't say enough, Ferguson was all too willing to explain it in his recent autobiography.
"In later years, we learned more about Arsene's thinking. Arsene had a template of how he sees his players and the way they play."
In response, Ferguson clearly developed a template of how to play a Wenger team: sit deep, hit hard, break fast. The pattern was repeated in all manner of games, from the devastating 2008-09 Champions League semi-final victory to a 2011 fifth-round FA Cup tie in which Ferguson fielded seven defenders but still won 2-0.
So far, so obvious; but it is perhaps the deeper specifics of that template which explain why Moyes’s record against Arsenal is comparatively under-par -- even accounting for the difference in resources.
Back in January 2010, after one of Everton's better recent performances against Arsenal, Steven Pienaar explained their approach.
"The game plan was to be aggressive in the midfield, not give them enough time, because we know if you give Arsenal two metres they will play you off the field."
Arsenal still left that field with a point, as Tomas Rosicky claimed a stoppage-time equaliser to make it 2-2. Ten months later, after Wenger's side turned that draw into a 2-1 win at Goodison Park, Phil Neville was speaking about a very different response to the same approach.
"They seem a little more resilient now," the former Everton man said of Arsenal. "You always fancy yourself to rough them up but we couldn’t do it and that is where they have improved."
In attempting to stifle Arsenal primarily through physical or aggressive challenges, it is arguable that Moyes was applying an approach Wenger had long since learned to deal with. Sure, the French coach always encountered trouble with Everton, but generally trumped them. The old stereotypes about his team were not quite so true. Stoke City, after all, provide a telling acid test which the London side almost always passed. Despite the perceptions about Tony Pulis's team, Wenger won every home game against them in the league and only lost two of 11 matches.
In his book, Ferguson also reveals a moment of realisation about all this.
.
"We didn't need to win the ball against Arsenal, we needed to intercept it. You need good payers who can intercept. We worked out that when the ball was played into [Cesc] Fabregas with his back to goal, he would turn round the corner and meet the return pass... so we would say to our players: 'Stay with the runner, then intercept the pass.' Then we counter-attacked quickly."
As it happens, United currently make the most interceptions of all 20 Premier League teams, with 17.2 per game. That is also up significantly from last season's 13.6, which was conversely one of the lowest in the league.
Naturally, there is a radical difference between achieving that through general play and then applying a concerted approach in an individual game. It is promising for Moyes, but may not quite transfer like that. What's more, the increased speed and number of Arsenal's interchanges -- as so gloriously emphasised by Jack Wilshere's goal against Norwich and the general movement of Mesut Ozil -- will demand even more and better interceptions.
Their flurried attacks have provided 22 goals and thereby the second best scoring record in the league, while rendering some of the best backlines irrelevant. United currently have one of the worst defensive records, with the 13 goals they have conceded only better than Fulham, Newcastle United, Norwich City, Crystal Palace and Sunderland.
Yet responding to that rampant attacking with more committed rigour may not actually be the correct route here.
This is a new Arsenal, but they have not been fully tested against an old approach.
For all the complications linked to Ferguson lingering, and all the comparisons with the drama of Matt Busby's retirement, this is one game when Moyes could benefit from a lengthy discussion with his predecessor. That could be key.
Otherwise, we may see a very different outcome to this famed fixture.
One thing that could work in our favour is Arsenal's distaste for the physical game. You can bet your bollocks to a barn dance that Moyes'll encourage the players to play physically.
According to Fergie, the best way to beat them is stand off and intercept. then counter quickly. Despite Arsenal's reputation for being a bit soft it seems they've learned to deal with the physical game.
Yeah, he also said they're harder to play against at home because they're not as adventurous. Maybe our current situation will play into our hands, with Arsenal more confident in getting the ball forward?
Cazorla and Ozil are our main threats, cut them two out of the game and the feed to Giroud should be minimal. As mentioned in another thread, their fullbacks aren't the best defensively and I think that is why I think we should utilize our flair players in this match and take advantage of that, we will do them in on the flanks with Nani and Januzaj. Rooney and van Persie are both capable of winning matches on their own so if either one of them are on their game on Sunday we'll be sorted. The last thing I want to see is either one benched.
As long as we approach the game positively, I have a sneaky feeling we will beat these, even if noone else seems to think so.
Presumably no updates on injuries yet? Does Moyes have a presser today?
A level of intensity akin to that which we saw against Ream Madrid last season is a must here.
Concur with this, Valencia is sufficiently competent in defensive terms and more importantly can offer the team greater flexibility offensively.
Besides that, Jones would be better employed at CB or barring that in midfield.
Moyes is going to opt for Smalling though isn't he? lol
Concur with this, Valencia is sufficiently competent in defensive terms and more importantly can offer the team greater flexibility offensively.
Besides that, Jones would be better employed at CB or barring that in midfield.
Moyes is going to opt for Smalling though isn't he? lol
-------------De Gea--------------
Rafael ----Evans ---Vidic----- Evra
Valencia- Carrick--Fellaini...Januzaj
------------Rooney---------------
--------------RVP----------------
2- 0 We will be up for this one hopefullyRafael ----Evans ---Vidic----- Evra
Valencia- Carrick--Fellaini...Januzaj
------------Rooney---------------
--------------RVP----------------
That won us the title last year did it not.
In my opinion, we played a lot better last year, and Arsenal have stepped up to a much higher level both defensively and offensively than they have been for a long while. Apart from the opening half-an-hour against a dismal Fulham side, we've had RVP and Rooney feeding off scraps and I can't see that changing against an Arsenal side who are capable of starving the opposition of possession whilst looking defensively sound.
I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not optimistic about this one.
only Wellbeck is injured. Carrick, Rafael,Evans are all back.
------------De Gea--------------
Rafael ----Evans ---Vidic----- Evra
-----------Carrick----------
--------Jones--Rooney
Valencia---RVP---Janujaz
Rafael ----Evans ---Vidic----- Evra
-----------Carrick----------
--------Jones--Rooney
Valencia---RVP---Janujaz
No, it seems those 3 have a chance of playing, depending on how the look tomorrow. They are not definitely available.
But if all 3 did play we might have a chance of avoiding the heavy thrashing we're all expecting...
I agree, however when was the last time we approached a big game positively?
You ground through games but won almost all of them, Fergie factor played a huge part in that. This season so far its been shown you wont win all of those grinding out games.
Anyone think Moyes may play ultra cautious? Not a good idea as despite how good/average Arsenal and United have been respectively if anyone can beat them its United.
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