Manchester United name John Murtough as Football Director and Darren Fletcher as Technical Director

[Sky1981]

When he was there… where did Arsenal finish?

Ah sure, because technical director actually managed the club. Look at their youth product now. Saka / Martinelli. They don't just pop up the last 2 years from the tree

 

[Mainoldo]

Ah sure, because technical director actually managed the club. Look at their youth product now. Saka / Martinelli. They don't just pop up the last 2 years from the tree

Your schooling your own self. Saka as been there since a kid way before that guy got there and Martineli was brought in with Edu.

They finished 6th 5th 8th by the way.

 

[stefan92]

Again, I'm sick of this (not aimed at you) familiar faces / knew the club tropes. It does nothing, it adds nothing, and no kids of aspiring ambitions would be motivated by Darren Fletcher. His academy years also left much to be desired with him not making it until somehow he fake it till he make it for a short peak of his career. He's in no position to coach other, I doubt our academy players would play well with his outdated coaching method. We were never a team that are good with possession under Fergie, we played a different brand of football that can't be imparted and probably not a good spring board for academy players.

Have a look at Ajax / Bayern / Any other top Europe team coaches and come up with their experiences. They're all trained and actually study their traits. It's like saying anyone who can speaks English can be a good PE teacher.

I don't think it's bad to have someone who helps youth players moving through the ranks, knows the club and gets the players trust because he is there for them. This is a job where you should have playing experience for the club and be a open minded and positive person.

It starts becoming an issue, when you call this kind of youth mentor your "Technical Director". That indeed is a laughable way of structuring a club.

 

[SparkedIntoLife]

Again, I'm sick of this (not aimed at you) familiar faces / knew the club tropes. It does nothing, it adds nothing, and no kids of aspiring ambitions would be motivated by Darren Fletcher. His academy years also left much to be desired with him not making it until somehow he fake it till he make it for a short peak of his career. He's in no position to coach other, I doubt our academy players would play well with his outdated coaching method. We were never a team that are good with possession under Fergie, we played a different brand of football that can't be imparted and probably not a good spring board for academy players.

Have a look at Ajax / Bayern / Any other top Europe team coaches and come up with their experiences. They're all trained and actually study their traits. It's like saying anyone who can speaks English can be a good PE teacher.

I have been suspicious of the jobs for the boys mindset in some spheres of this club but lots of the biggest, best operated clubs in the world use former players in such positions. Real and Barca regularly have ex players as their B team managers (who occupy the second and sometimes third tiers of Spanish football so an important job). Bayern have ex players throughout key positions in their hierarchy, to much success. Ajax obviously do. The Italian clubs are famous for it. You'll be hard pressed to find any big clubs without ex players in key positions.

Fletcher was a far better player than you're giving him credit for. He's also meant to be very bright and Sir Alex spoke highly of his professionalism. He coached our Reserves and was, if I recall, both captain and did some coaching at West Brom and Stoke. This isn't someone without any experience or qualifications. He could easily be a manager in the SPL or Championship right now but he's in a fairly low ranked coaching and link between the youth and 1st team role. I really don't get the fuss. We have other coaches like Eric Ramsey, Van der Gaag, McClaren and numerous others most of us don't know the names of who have tons of varied experience. It's not like we have Giggs, Rio and Forlan as our backroom team.

We also don't know about his coaching method or how modern or not it is. He'll have taken a lot from Sir Alex but is his own person who has done his own studying at different institutions. He hasn't just been frozen in time and plopped into 2023 Manchester United. Lots of fans criticised Kieran McKenna when they had very little idea of how good he is (guilty by association and the stink of United) and now he's proving to be excellent at Ipswich.

I suspect you and others are just deeply frustrated about United (as am I) but are picking on people who really don't deserve it or whom we cannot possibly know their effectiveness. Murtough and Arnold? Fair game - a lot of their work is visible. ETH? Absolutely deserves criticism (though I think he's the best we could have for now and has been up against the tide this season). As for Fletcher, I really think criticism of him is a total misunderstanding of his role and isn't backed up by logic. It's just a projection of overall unhappiness and looking for people to blame.

 

[El Jefe]

A lot of you drank the kool aid from Adnan about this new operation we had and how it would lead to better results.

Many people could see this hire for what it was. Another ridiculous internal promotion. Blaming the Glazers for Murtough’s ineptitude is just deflecting the blame. The Glazers are shit but he’s had the conditions to do a better job than he has in his time as DoF.

Poor @UnitedSofa seems to run out of excuses too.

 

[El Presidente]

So lets say you're ETH, there are two players you want and can get.

Would you say no don't sign them because they're going to be injured for the first 3-5 games?

If I was EtH, I wouldn’t have targeted a guy with around 4000-4500 minutes of professional football (that would also cost me half of my budget btw) to lead the line for the most scrutinised club in England, especially when there’s no backup. He better be a mental monster, otherwise he’s fecked. So I wouldn’t be in that position to choose in the first place. Also, I wouldn’t have given the other half of the budget for Mount btw.

 

[saivet]

A dig from Neville at Murtough

 

[Sarni]

Ah sure, because technical director actually managed the club. Look at their youth product now. Saka / Martinelli. They don't just pop up the last 2 years from the tree

That’s another thing that bothers me so much. Virtually all top clubs are going to either produce top talent out of their academy or at least buy very young players that they can progress to world class levels or thereabouts. We are doing this so rarely and in the recent 4-5 years basically not at all.

 

[Marwood]

If I was EtH, I wouldn’t have targeted a guy with around 4000-4500 minutes of professional football (that would also cost me half of my budget btw) to lead the line for the most scrutinised club in England, especially when there’s no backup. He better be a mental monster, otherwise he’s fecked. So I wouldn’t be in that position to choose in the first place. Also, I wouldn’t have given the other half of the budget for Mount btw.

But your intial complaint was about signing injured players. Their quality is a seperate issue.

So again, would you have avoided Hojlund and Amrabat because they're injured for the first 3-5 games. Simple question.

 

[wolvored]

I wish we would move away from this jobs for the good ol' boys though. It hasnt done us any good. Why is injury prone Jones hanging around the U18 team? Is there a thinking he can become a coach, because hes spent so much time around the coaches and physios whilst injured.

 

[El Presidente]

But your intial complaint was about signing injured players. Their quality is a seperate issue.

So again, would you have avoided Hojlund and Amrabat because they're injured for the first 3-5 games. Simple question.

With Amrabat, I would have been fine, he shouldn't be a starter so his absence would be less impactful.
With Hojlund, as I said, I wouldn't have gone for him at all. If I knew that on top of that, he will miss the first 5 games and I have to rely on Martial (lol) for goals, then no, definitely would have avoided.

 

[Sky1981]

I have been suspicious of the jobs for the boys mindset in some spheres of this club but lots of the biggest, best operated clubs in the world use former players in such positions. Real and Barca regularly have ex players as their B team managers (who occupy the second and sometimes third tiers of Spanish football so an important job). Bayern have ex players throughout key positions in their hierarchy, to much success. Ajax obviously do. The Italian clubs are famous for it. You'll be hard pressed to find any big clubs without ex players in key positions.

Fletcher was a far better player than you're giving him credit for. He's also meant to be very bright and Sir Alex spoke highly of his professionalism. He coached our Reserves and was, if I recall, both captain and did some coaching at West Brom and Stoke. This isn't someone without any experience or qualifications. He could easily be a manager in the SPL or Championship right now but he's in a fairly low ranked coaching and link between the youth and 1st team role. I really don't get the fuss. We have other coaches like Eric Ramsey, Van der Gaag, McClaren and numerous others most of us don't know the names of who have tons of varied experience. It's not like we have Giggs, Rio and Forlan as our backroom team.

We also don't know about his coaching method or how modern or not it is. He'll have taken a lot from Sir Alex but is his own person who has done his own studying at different institutions. He hasn't just been frozen in time and plopped into 2023 Manchester United. Lots of fans criticised Kieran McKenna when they had very little idea of how good he is (guilty by association and the stink of United) and now he's proving to be excellent at Ipswich.

I suspect you and others are just deeply frustrated about United (as am I) but are picking on people who really don't deserve it or whom we cannot possibly know their effectiveness. Murtough and Arnold? Fair game - a lot of their work is visible. ETH? Absolutely deserves criticism (though I think he's the best we could have for now and has been up against the tide this season). As for Fletcher, I really think criticism of him is a total misunderstanding of his role and isn't backed up by logic. It's just a projection of overall unhappiness and looking for people to blame.

Sir Alex stenght lies in something that can't be taught. Man management, guts, determination, hunger, tactic wise he isnt somewhat special. Albeit off course he wasnt clueless, just not the tactical pedigree many other manager seems to be

As history has shown most of his ex players arent doing well. From Ince, keane, Bruce, Ole, Gary, etc has all failed to emulate him even half. They're devoid of even the basic man management skill which supposedly his strongest point.

And most of the names you mentioned in other clubs has the benefit of learning on the job due to the structure left intact for new people to come, learn, and become the next to pass the torch.

As to United along with SAF retirements, Moyes cleared up the whole 25 years worth of legacy and razed it to ground zero. Different time. We cant afford to let anyone but the best in the job

 

[SparkedIntoLife]

I wish we would move away from this jobs for the good ol' boys though. It hasnt done us any good. Why is injury prone Jones hanging around the U18 team? Is there a thinking he can become a coach, because hes spent so much time around the coaches and physios whilst injured.

Why can't he? He's almost as low down the totem pole as he can be. I don't think we have a disproportionate about of 'the boys' in key jobs at United. We might've in the past but not now. Most big clubs in Europe employ ex players in various roles. More than us probably - see Real Madrid - Solari as Director of Professional Football, Roberto Carlos as Marketing Manager, Iker Casillas as Vice Chairman, Butragueno as Chairman and Raul as Castilla Manager. But because they're well run and win things, this as a principal doesn't get criticised.

I think the dissatisfaction with this club is causing people to just attack various parts of it without applying proper logic.

 

[clarkydaz]

A dig from Neville at Murtough

i thought this was the condition on him taking the job though.

 

[wolvored]

Why can't he? He's almost as low down the totem pole as he can be. I don't think we have a disproportionate about of 'the boys' in key jobs at United. We might've in the past but not now. Most big clubs in Europe employ ex players in various roles. More than us probably - see Real Madrid - Solari as Director of Professional Football, Roberto Carlos as Marketing Manager, Iker Casillas as Vice Chairman, Butragueno as Chairman and Raul as Castilla Manager. But because they're well run and win things, this as a principal doesn't get criticised.

I think the dissatisfaction with this club is causing people to just attack various parts of it without applying proper logic.

Most of those roles are not coaches though. I would think a club as big as Utd, would try and get the best coaches they can get, not jobs for the boys. We tried Giggs Ole Carrick Neville and others yet won nothing with them in post.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Our directors are all a joke.

 

[Gordon Godot]

i thought this was the condition on him taking the job though.

Then we should have said no. Every time we gamble all on the manager, even more so it seems with ETH than his predeccors. You cant afford to do that.

 

[Roboc7]

A lot of you drank the kool aid from Adnan about this new operation we had and how it would lead to better results.

Many people could see this hire for what it was. Another ridiculous internal promotion. Blaming the Glazers for Murtough’s ineptitude is just deflecting the blame. The Glazers are shit but he’s had the conditions to do a better job than he has in his time as DoF.

Poor @UnitedSofa seems to run out of excuses too.

Exactly and the biggest joke is it doesn’t matter how big a failure Murtough is he’ll keep his job just like Arnold will and Woodward did. These guys fail repeatedly and get rewarded for it because they do what the owners want.

Woodward was a disaster, the fact he chose to leave and was then replaced by his mate and another guy described as a fixer was all you needed to know. It was a continuation of what Woodward did with a few tweaks.

 

[elmo]

That’s another thing that bothers me so much. Virtually all top clubs are going to either produce top talent out of their academy or at least buy very young players that they can progress to world class levels or thereabouts. We are doing this so rarely and in the recent 4-5 years basically not at all.

I mean we hired Jose who wasn’t a fan of youth players, Ole and ETH who both seem to only allow 1/2 youth players into the first team set up in a season.

How’s the youth players supposed to show what they’ve got if they can get playing time?

 

[elmo]

Exactly and the biggest joke is it doesn’t matter how big a failure Murtough is he’ll keep his job just like Arnold will and Woodward did. These guys fail repeatedly and get rewarded for it because they do what the owners want.

Woodward was a disaster, the fact he chose to leave and was then replaced by his mate and another guy described as a fixer was all you needed to know. It was a continuation of what Woodward did with a few tweaks.

Preach. I’ve said it from the start, this is basically Woodward 2.0 with better PR. Actual stuff being done is still the same mess but people are lapping it up and trying to blame the manager instead.

 

[clarkydaz]

Then we should have said no. Every time we gamble all on the manager, even more so it seems with ETH than his predeccors. You cant afford to do that.

People were clamouring for him to be manager though, if it broke down the club would have got the backlash. And getting Donnie for Ole was a disaster

 

[Roboc7]

Preach. I’ve said it from the start, this is basically Woodward 2.0 with better PR. Actual stuff being done is still the same mess but people are lapping it up and trying to blame the manager instead.

It is Woodward 2.0 because that’s what it’s designed to be, Woodward will still be here if he didn’t choose to leave. These people won’t be held accountable because they are not expected to run or build a club to compete at the highest level. That’s not the business model.

 

[SparkedIntoLife]

Most of those roles are not coaches though. I would think a club as big as Utd, would try and get the best coaches they can get, not jobs for the boys. We tried Giggs Ole Carrick Neville and others yet won nothing with them in post.

An overwhelming majority of our coaches aren't ex United players. There has to be a balance though. Having the odd coach who have played at the highest level can't be a bad thing, surely? I don't think factually we have a disproportionate level of ex players coaching at United. It's basically Fletcher and Jones, right (with Evans perhaps doing some coaching alongside being emergency CD cover)? Most other clubs have ex players in their coaching set up. I really think this criticism is over stated and not properly thought through - it's just a dogmatic annoyance. Let's focus on things actually wrong with the club, of which there's many, not small fries like this.

 

[Marwood]

With Amrabat, I would have been fine, he shouldn't be a starter so his absence would be less impactful.
With Hojlund, as I said, I wouldn't have gone for him at all. If I knew that on top of that, he will miss the first 5 games and I have to rely on Martial (lol) for goals, then no, definitely would have avoided.

But ETH did want him. So to not sign him because he's not available for the first 3 games would have been ridiculous.

Plenty of things to criticise management for but this isn't one of them.

 

[SmallCaine]

i thought this was the condition on him taking the job though.

Most managers get a say in what type of player a club signs the problem for us is we have let Ten Hag decide who it is specifically we sign, likes of bayern or madrid would have drug tested Ten Hag if he asked them to spend 90mn on antony, we just signed the cheque. Same with De Jong, a competent management would have told Ten Hag to get his head out of his ass and would have tried to sign alternatives rather than a last minute panic buy in casemiro after spending the entire window trying to convince a player with no interest in coming here.

 

[stefan92]

Most managers get a say in what type of player a club signs the problem for us is we have let Ten Hag decide who it is specifically we sign, likes of bayern or madrid would have drug tested Ten Hag if he asked them to spend 90mn on antony, we just signed the cheque. Same with De Jong, a competent management would have told Ten Hag to get his head out of his ass and would have tried to sign alternatives rather than a last minute panic buy in casemiro.

Are we even sure that EtH wanted to pay this price? Contract negotiations are not really his business.

So most likely it would go like this at another club:
EtH: Hi DoF, I'd like you to sign Antony for us
DoF: Sure, I'll see what I can do
(some negotiations later...)
DoF: Hi Erik, sorry but Ajax demands a price that's just ridiculous for him. Let's look who we can sign instead who is worth his money, I'm not going to be robbed by them.
(they proceed to sign another winger who isn't ridiculuously overpriced)

This is a DoF's job, and this veto just isn't given at United.

 

[Redstain]

Preach. I’ve said it from the start, this is basically Woodward 2.0 with better PR. Actual stuff being done is still the same mess but people are lapping it up and trying to blame the manager instead.

Woodward was better than Murtough on the premise of standing for something. His ideology was to bring highly esteemed players to the club for idea of marketability, fan reaction etc. It doesn't matter how wrong Woodwards ideology was Murtough doesn't stand for anything which is worse, it's counterintuitive to being a director as directors need to have a directive. I know there's mentions of other clubs successfully hiring DOF positions with individuals who had no experience but the issue with John is he's shown no compatibility to the role. He's made more poor decisions than good ones:

1. Prolonged firing Solskjaer.
2. Was instrumental in hiring Ragnick as manager.
3. Couldn't facilitate a position for Ralf as consultant (no relationship between Ragnick / ETH) despite it being the only potential positive conclusion from his tenure.
3. Re-shaped the recruitment only to have the manager overrule everything.
4. Overpaying for players as he's attended talks for negotiations with his flights to other nations.

There's actually nothing that Murtough has done that we can critically assess and give him credit for. Fans (as shown in the history of this thread) will give plaudits for change sake without assessing the impact of it. Hindsight and reflection is killing Murtough at this moment in time and it doesn't look like anything is going to change that. This thread should have ten times the engagement than the one with ETH. It's good that the minority here (compared to the manager thread) are seeing the issues for what they are objectively.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

i thought this was the condition on him taking the job though.

If that was the case, then Murtough should have shaken his hand at the end of the job interview and said "thank you for your time, it's been a wonderful conversation, but unfortunately I don't think this is going to be a great fit."

 

[Telsim]

If I were a new owner, sacking these undeniable clowns would be a priority. Unfortunately, with the Glazers now staying they've got their jobs secured for the foreseeable future.

 

[clarkydaz]

If that was the case, then Murtough should have shaken his hand at the end of the job interview and said "thank you for your time, it's been a wonderful conversation, but unfortunately I don't think this is going to be a great fit."

Yeah but people were applauding it at the time. It was the fanbase wanting ETH, and rebelling against the club choice Poch

 

[RedDevil@84]

Blaming the Glazers for Murtough’s ineptitude is just deflecting the blame

How? Glazers do an internal promotion (in your words) of an inept guy (in your words) and you say they are not responsible? They are 100% responsible for Woodward, they are 100% responsible for club throwing ridiculous transfer amounts and wages for average players and they are responsible for all the muck at the club, including the guys above ETH.
Murtough and Woodward before him survive, because the Glazers either want them there or don't care what they do with the club.

 

[Gordon Godot]

How? Glazers do an internal promotion (in your words) of an inept guy (in your words) and you say they are not responsible? They are 100% responsible for Woodward, they are 100% responsible for club throwing ridiculous transfer amounts and wages for average players and they are responsible for all the muck at the club, including the guys above ETH.

Of course it sits with the owners. They seem to want yes men or people who wont rock the boat. They dont want the best people in football.

 

[El Jefe]

How? Glazers do an internal promotion (in your words) of an inept guy (in your words) and you say they are not responsible? They are 100% responsible for Woodward, they are 100% responsible for club throwing ridiculous transfer amounts and wages for average players and they are responsible for all the muck at the club, including the guys above ETH.
Murtough and Woodward before him survive, because the Glazers either want them there or don't care what they do with the club.

I qualified that at first saying that the Glazers are shit. I say it’s deflecting because there are some that believe Murtough is doing a good job but being hampered by the Glazers.

I’m pretty sure it’s not the Glazers saying Murtough should bend backwards for EtH in recruiting the Eredivisie all star team. Glazers are crap but so is Murtough.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

i thought this was the condition on him taking the job though.

Not sure it should have been. Even Pep works with other people. ETH did at Ajax. Why did he think he was qualified to do choosing of players on his own. Maybe we should have sorted out a DOF, then either let him pick a manager or told ETH who the DOF was and if he wanted the job he has to work with him. Sensible planning for a change.

 

[elmo]

i thought this was the condition on him taking the job though.

It’s just using ETH as the scapegoat to not hire Rangnick because he exposed how badly run the club is despite everybody knowing it already.

ETH worked with a DOF at Ajax and people really think he wanted to be held responsible for signings when he already had a massive job coaching the team?

 

[roseguy64]

I wish we would move away from this jobs for the good ol' boys though. It hasnt done us any good. Why is injury prone Jones hanging around the U18 team? Is there a thinking he can become a coach, because hes spent so much time around the coaches and physios whilst injured.

It happens at every club. It's not unique to Man Utd. Get over it.

 

[SmallCaine]

Are we even sure that EtH wanted to pay this price? Contract negotiations are not really his business.

So most likely it would go like this at another club:
EtH: Hi DoF, I'd like you to sign Antony for us
DoF: Sure, I'll see what I can do
(some negotiations later...)
DoF: Hi Erik, sorry but Ajax demands a price that's just ridiculous for him. Let's look who we can sign instead who is worth his money, I'm not going to be robbed by them.
(they proceed to sign another winger who isn't ridiculuously overpriced)

This is a DoF's job, and this veto just isn't given at United.

We did exactly that but once Ten Hag put his foot down went back and paid Ajax's price, which someone like city or madrid wouldn't have done.

 

[roseguy64]

Woodward was better than Murtough on the premise of standing for something. His ideology was to bring highly esteemed players to the club for idea of marketability, fan reaction etc. It doesn't matter how wrong Woodwards ideology was Murtough doesn't stand for anything which is worse, it's counterintuitive to being a director as directors need to have a directive. I know there's mentions of other clubs successfully hiring DOF positions with individuals who had no experience but the issue with John is he's shown no compatibility to the role. He's made more poor decisions than good ones:

1. Prolonged firing Solskjaer.
2. Was instrumental in hiring Ragnick as manager.
3. Couldn't facilitate a position for Ralf as consultant (no relationship between Ragnick / ETH) despite it being the only potential positive conclusion from his tenure.
3. Re-shaped the recruitment only to have the manager overrule everything.
4. Overpaying for players as he's attended talks for negotiations with his flights to other nations.

There's actually nothing that Murtough has done that we can critically assess and give him credit for. Fans (as shown in the history of this thread) will give plaudits for change sake without assessing the impact of it. Hindsight and reflection is killing Murtough at this moment in time and it doesn't look like anything is going to change that. This thread should have ten times the engagement than the one with ETH. It's good that the minority here (compared to the manager thread) are seeing the issues for what they are objectively.

Fair criticism and all but Woodward fired Solskjaer, not Murtough.

 

[roseguy64]

We did exactly that but once Ten Hag put his foot down went back and paid Ajax's price, which someone like city or madrid wouldn't have done.

That Antony signing is the only one I really put a negative on Murtough for. Should have not gone back in for him out of desperation. We surely had alternatives.

Our other signings have all been for comparable value (maybe not Hojlund but then you look at Ramos and Kolo Muani) and are good talents.

The only black mark I'd place on them is that a few of them have been way too ETH influenced.

 

[RedDevil@84]

I’m pretty sure it’s not the Glazers saying Murtough should bend backwards for EtH in recruiting the Eredivisie all star team. Glazers are crap but so is Murtough.

The problem is Glazers don't care if Murtough is shit or not. If under Murtough, say our sponsorship dies and money deals collapse, then Glazers would fire Murtough.
But when we collapse in PL, as a result of Murtough allowing ETH to recruit an Eredivisie all start team, then the Glazers wouldn't fire Murtough for wasting money, yet again. They would fire ETH and say job done.