Debatable. He's done OK in transforming the squad, not so great with instating a style of play or established philosophy.
Manchester United name John Murtough as Football Director and Darren Fletcher as Technical Director
- Thread starter Tom Van Persie
- Start date
Debatable. He's done OK in transforming the squad, not so great with instating a style of play or established philosophy.
This isn't new news so why are some of you suddenly loosing your sh**?
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It’s absolutely terrible there’s no way around it. During his 3 years we have accumulated 66, 66, and 74 points (all the while teams above us were accumulating almost 100 points), mostly not progressing with any kind of style of play and still looking as disjointed as ever after spending close to half a billion on transfers. CL group exists, no trophies, and now potentially being out of the title race by the end of October and looking like it’s a coin flip with us not making out the easiest CL group you can ask for.
The game isn't until tonight. People need something to rage about.
It's crazy, they moan about every little thing, yes we are all frustrated but come on, I hope some on here don't reason with personal stuff in their lives the way they do with United issues.
Ferguson always stated he loved the way Bayern Munich were run: "It’s a club run in the proper foundation of it. Former players who run it really, Uli Hoeness and Karl-Heinze Rumenigge, they run the club in the right way and they are always winning the league in Germany.
He always wanted ex players higher up in a technical/board room level, he has stated that numerous times, thats how we are restructuring, this has been happening for over a year now.
Its not fecking nepotism, it's not a mates club, its how the club want to run themselves.
It works well for Bayern, and I don't hear anyone on here state its nepotism or a mates club about them?!
Strange thing to get angry about, but I guess people need to rage about something it seems.
He always wanted ex players higher up in a technical/board room level, he has stated that numerous times, thats how we are restructuring, this has been happening for over a year now.
Its not fecking nepotism, it's not a mates club, its how the club want to run themselves.
It works well for Bayern, and I don't hear anyone on here state its nepotism or a mates club about them?!
Strange thing to get angry about, but I guess people need to rage about something it seems.
Considering the envy most have for Bayern on here, you'd have thought more people are happy we're going in this direction.
Well given the delusion, hypocrisy and downright bias displayed by the likes of Scholes and Neville one would be worried about them or a clique they belong to having any influence on decision making at United. These guys have practically and blatantly put their mate's interests ahead of the club that gave them fame and fortune.
Somehow I have a soft spot for Fletcher and am still willing to give Murtough a chance before judging him. A lot will depend on how the next weeks and months pan out - will they be decisive when needed to be or they will kick the can down the road and write off another season because "Ole deserves the whole season".
There is a slight problem with your comparison. Bayern have a monopoly on the Bundesliga. They literally dwarf the entire league when it comes to resources. Any top player Bayern wants from there is going. Period. No questions asked. We do not have that luxury. We have 5 (6 now) clubs that could more or less compete with us in terms of resources. The rest of the league can also spend pretty heavily on players due to TV revenue which creates an inflated market when every player that comes out of this league costs around 100 million, even average. West Ham can charge us for Rice 100 million despite him being nowhere near that value. Why? Because they're not hurting for money. In Germany Bayern can buy a player of Graelish's quality for 20-30 million and pay him 70k in wages. You can switch our clubs and United would be no different than Bayern in that environment. A blind donkey can run Bayern and be successful.
Also their ability to pick and choose who to pluck for their domestic league means that their mistakes aren't always as costly and they can quickly rectify them. Imagine if we had the luxury of taking Kante from Chelsea, De Bruyne from City and Salah from Liverpool and then some on free transfers we wouldn't have spent a decade in the wilderness post Fergie because we'd have simply poached PEP from City.
That's not what Bayern does though, the vast majority of their signings are similar to the ones of top PL clubs. They mainly take players from abroad or from domestic clubs that are financially far from them. It's not different to United taking the likes of Shaw, Wan Bissaka, Maguire, Lukaku, Matic and many others while also getting the likes of Bruno, Pogba or Sancho.
its the United way
Meaning all of them?
There's always someone like this guy that tries and fails to argue that the Bundesliga isn't a 1 club league.
He hasn't. He hasn't done a great job either. And he wouldn't still be in his job in any other big club.
Which means that either we're missing a trick or all the other clubs are. Looking at the last eight years, I'd say it's more likely to be us.
First what is the point of you second sentence, why do you try to turn this into something that it's not? It's just weird.
And no, the only clubs that Bayern can negotiate with without problems are midtable Bundesliga clubs and below which is why outside of release clauses, Bayern rarely deals with Bundesliga clubs. They make their business out of it.
Yes, they don't make deals with other german clubs except when they do but those don't count. Got ya.
That may be true of the Bundesliga, but they seem to be doing mighty fine in Europe too, without doubt what you say has credence, it doesn't take away from the fact that their setup assists them to being as successful as they are...
The simple fact is Bayern are a well run club with links to their past yet displaying progressive roots.
United are looking to emulate that, so really there is no downside to it in my opinion.
But I didn't say that they don't make deals with other german clubs or that they didn't count? I said that the vast majority of their deals are with foreign clubs and clubs that are far from them, the likes of Hoffenheim or Stuttgart which is similar to what happens in the PL and every other leagues in the world.
says who?
Using the term "club" is the issue overall.
Its not a club. Its a business.
There are two points of view
the commercial being the financial performance
and the product, the product being the football
Over nearly the last decade the product hasnt been great, but the commercials tend to be growing year on year ( covid impact aside)
So should the shareholders care about the product when the cash keeps coming in? The brand loyalty and marketability is outrageously valuable. Even if the prodcut is shite.
Owning a football team with a massive supporter base = massive customer base - perenially. They will keep coming back.
As long as the money keeps coming in there is no real onus to ensure the team are set up to win titles. Just spin up the PR and employ someone with the correct soundbites programmed into them.
Cash flow trouble is the only thing that will provoke action from the board. As long as cash positions are relativley sound it wont matter what happens on the field
But they also make deals with Leipzig or players from the other supposedly "big teams" regularly join them on a free. When was the last time we signed someone from city or liverpool? Bundesliga has always been about Bayern Munich, everything is about them, they get all the attention and it's always been like that. That's what I'm arguing about. A 1 club league. They can do as they please, make as many mistakes as they want and can always turn it around.
We can copy every position they have, fill it with former players and never come close to the luxuries they have. A league they can walk, less games, winter break. They are set up perfectly to do well in Europe.
The Bayern comparison is apt. A club that values the football side of things first and foremost, before anything else, which is basically the antithesis of how our fans perceive the club to have been run for years now.
Any changes we make to the hierarchy of the club in an attempt to try and replicate the Bayern structure and ethos, can only be seen as a postive move really.
Any changes we make to the hierarchy of the club in an attempt to try and replicate the Bayern structure and ethos, can only be seen as a postive move really.
Yeah more promotions for the old boys
Leipzig aren't a big team financially within the Bundesliga they are below Frankfurt. But my point was that Bayern purchase less players from Bundesliga clubs than United or City does from the PL, the vast majority of their transfers are with foreign clubs. The main difference is that they do it well and purchase less players, they seem to always target the proper area of need and in anticipation of future problems, it's rarely when they need it.
It's reminiscent of United under SAF, outside of the center midfield.
Well I was referring specifically to the media suggestion that Gill and SAF are wresting back power in the club. I don’t want to be overly negative as SAF is a legend and perhaps he still has it in him to “fix” us. But I fear that it’s very unlikely for him to still be in touch with the modern game and he’ll only set us back further, tarnishing his legacy.
I don't know about Hoeness but Rumenigge has a University Degree too. A lot of these continental players are well educated compared to most British players. Playing a good game and managing a club at Executive level are two different things.
Murtough seems okay. Done good work at youth level. Maybe just better let him run things with real authority (enough to move Ole on). It’s only then that you can see how good he is. Given he signed Amad and Hannibal, I don’t see that he would have been behind re-signing Ronaldo or holding onto Lingard etc. I think one of your issues is that he’s been promoted after Ole has been in place. That never works out well.
That's not true though.
Neuer - Poached from Schalke
Sule - Hoffenheim
Upamecano - Leipzig
Pavad - Stuttgart
Kimmich - Leipzig
Goretzka - Schalke
Lewandowski - Dortmund
Realistically more than half of their signings were poached directly from the Bundesliga. Most of them for an incredibly low sum of money. This is something we can never achieve in the PL. Even a relegation candidate will show us a middle finger because all clubs in the PL have more money than they know what to do with. On top of that, we're forced to fight for a CL qualification tooth and nail every year while Bayern, if by some miracle miss winning the championship, have a guaranteed spot regardless of whether they have Mr. Moyes and Ole as a manager or Klopp and Guardiola. The reality is that we can never hope to emulate Bayern because we're juggling in entirely different playing fields.
They are doing well in Europe precisely because they have a whole feeder league. We'd be doing well in Europe, too, if we had the opportunity to poach players from City, Liverpool, Chelsea, etc with ease.
I hadnt heard any of that- I would take Gill in a heartbeat- SAF needs to stay retired and I think he will. His health is more important
What is not true? Your list spans over 10 years of transfers with 2 free agents, 2 players purchased through release clauses, one player that was the second most expensive goalkeeper in the history, Hoffenheim that aren't wealthy and finally Kimmich from a 2.Bundesliga club basically Dan James.
During the same period United purchased Shaw, Wan Bissaka, Maguire, Matic, Phil Jones that's the players still at the club but we also purchased Lukaku, Sanchez, Schneiderlin, Fellaini, Van Persie, Ashley Young among many others.
There is nothing special about Bayern and where they purchase players, the difference is when they do it and how they make less mistakes when it comes to the profile of players they chase.
Truth, it was a huge mistake to make Ole permanent before installing a DOF.
He hasn’t done a terrible job.
I was going by Tom Van Persie’s posts (sorry I don’t know how to tag a poster):
I’m a somewhat new supporter so I can’t comment on Gill. Agree with you that SAF should stay retired.
He’s done a good job up until this season relative to expectations however the pressure was always on this season for him to deliver. Looking like he probably won’t do that now!
In the last 5 years they have signed 12 domestic based players out of 26 transfers, I think its fair to say they have been looking further afield recently than the Bundesliga, to put into context, United have signed 8 domestic based players in the same time frame out of 23 transfer dealings.
So I'd go so far to say that historically what you are saying has been the case, recently this hasn't been the case as much.
They are doing well in Europe becase they are efficient in their trasnfer dealings and are a well run club.
It is all about showing competency and merit, Bayern board and management has shown that over the years, United meanwhile has looked like mates club and nepotism fc. Hate to say this but Sir Alex's and class of 92's influence has been detrimental for United.
It's worth remembering that Bayern have been known as FC Hollywood, it hasn't always been smooth sailing under Hoeness and Rummenigge.
How so?
Am intrigued to get peoples views on this as I have been hearing this a lot on here and yet i just can't see it.
I can understand that living in the past can be detrimental, but when our past is littered with legends and academy success stories, it would be foolish not to cherish that and use it to the clubs advantage in my opinion, especially Sir Alex.
How many of the players you've listed are in our first team today? 2. If I go back in history of Bayern, I can probably create a novel of the Bundesliga players they've poached. That's not my goal. I just wanted to showcase their team right now. t is impossible for us to have the same model. We cannot do the same things they do even if we're richer.
8 domsetic players playing where? Only Shaw and AWB. That's the two players from the PL playing in our team. And I'm sorry but it is not even comparable. Shaw was a promising young talent when we brought him while AWB was a decent right-back, not really that amazing, but certainly no world class even to this day. In contrast Neuer and Lewandowski were world class when poached. Goretzka and Kimmich were amazing midfielders. Their defense - not too shabby either. In comparison, the equivalent of us buying Neuer and Lewandowski would be taking KDB from City for little to no money and Salah from Liverpool. There is simply no comparison. If you switch places between Bayern and United, United will win the Bundesliga with its eyes closed. They'd bully the rest of the league for the best players while Bayern will now start struggling to sign players and would either grossly overpay on local talent like Maguire or would be forced to look for outside where every team has a 30+ million bonus fee because of the money in the PL.
You can't see what's been going on at United since Sir Alex left, right from the nepotistic appointment of Moyes to barrage of criticism towards Mourinho from ex United players in Media to them protecting Ole and influencing the decisions and appointments at United.