Manchester City under Pep Guardiola | Pep on City v Liverpool ref: "He likes to be special"

dichinero said:
Putting red tinted glasses aside and can be said about José. Both have spent a ton of money and have underperformed so far however you want to look at it. If José needs time, so does Pep. It looks like we are making progress but we are not out of the woods yet. If we flop tomorrow, we are done for. On the other hand, they are still in the FA cup and are almost guaranteed 4th. Glasses house and what not
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I don't agree. The project with Pep was in motion before his final year in Bayern's contract. His friend has been at City wasting resource to build the platform for Pep. When he arrived he still spent a lot toward this long project with not much better end improvement from us.

We gave Moyes a year to destroy SAF's foundation. Got LVG who spent 2 years trying to change club identity. Mourinho came in & had to reverted the LVG's philosophy. Compare to City, we have gone a further way than City this season. At this rate, we can overtake them even at the end of this season.

They got easier route to semi final & still needed a replay! Now they have to go against serious teams. They're far from guaranteed top 4. They are 6 & 7 point away from Arsenal & us with a game in hand. Their fixture is as tough as ours with them having similar inconsistent issue.
 
ti vu said:
I don't agree. The project with Pep was in motion before his final year in Bayern's contract. His friend has been at City wasting resource to build the platform for Pep. When he arrived he still spent a lot toward this long project with not much better end improvement from us.
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Yes, but whoever that was laying the foundation hasn't done a good job, clearly. No one can look at that team and say that it is good enough. I despise City but I like to think I can be objective regarding City. I'm not fully convinced by either of the two tbh, but next season and a ton of money to spend between both of them will give a better indication.
 
dichinero said:
Yes, but whoever that was laying the foundation hasn't done a good job, clearly. No one can look at that team and say that it is good enough. I despise City but I like to think I can be objective regarding City. I'm not fully convinced by either of the two tbh, but next season and a ton of money to spend between both of them will give a better indication.
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Fair point. I have nothing to disagree on this post. Cheers
 
Attila said:
Yep. First time he doesn't have a world class squad and he gets knocked out in last 16. This team only lost 1-0 to Real Madrid last season in the semi final. How can the defence be getting worse after spending £75M in the summer
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How is it even possible for Man City, to not have a world class squad, with spending so huge over the past decade?

City surely has one of the best squads in Europe. That is world class.
 
I tend to lean towards "guy who happened to have the best players ever in his team" when discussing Pep but i think its too early to actually judge his City stint.

He's still in his first season with them.
 
UDontMessWith24 said:
Champions league knockout, away second leg with a two goal advantage and the best manager in the world (my arse) comes out with a midfield consisting of one holder and two playmakers that couldn't defend a CAF all star Sunday league team. All hail Pep the genius
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City's squad isn't build to sit deep and soak up pressure and their players aren't used to it. Furthermore Monaco are tactically well drilled and employ a very effective pressing. So it's completely understandable to try to gain security and confidence via control, instead of loading up the team with defensive minded players, without a clear match plan and then watch your team crumble because they lack the automatisms and tools to play through Monaco's pressure.

It's easy to call every big decision crap in hindsight when they lost, but a defensive strategy could've gone to shit just as easily.

City's squad is both a lot worse in quality and ill-fitting to his style than what he used to work with at Bayern, so it's naive to expect similar results so soon from him.
 
do.ob said:
City's squad isn't build to sit deep and soak up pressure and their players aren't used to it. Furthermore Monaco are tactically well drilled and employ a very effective pressing. So it's completely understandable to try to gain security and confidence via control, instead of loading up the team with defensive minded players, without a clear match plan and then watch your team crumble because they lack the automatisms and tools to play through Monaco's pressure.

It's easy to call every big decision crap in hindsight when they lost, but a defensive strategy could've gone to shit just as easily.

City's squad is both a lot worse in quality and ill-fitting to his style than what he used to work with at Bayern, so it's naive to expect similar results so soon from him.
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This City team was badly assembled, but they have been working on it for Pep for years as long project. It's not like he jumped into new water & has to work from scratch. His signings for this season were bad. Rely on Gundogan who had that injury record to hold out the whole season is unwise. Signing only Stones as defender recruitment when their defense have been bad for years. Persistent with playing out of the back when the players ain't having any of it... Similar to LVG, trying to make everything adapt to the philosophy instead of adapting to the circumstances.

Pep still needs to prove he can achieve success with squad that's not better than their competitions. He sure can make a better team dominating an inferior but strong team like an elite vs minnow, but it's more of cherry on the top than an actual achievement.
 
VanGaalEra said:
Not sure why it's an arbitrary stat, that's 1 win in the last 12 away KO games.

Who shall we compare it to? Ancelotti and Enrique?

Enrique in his time at Barca:

City 1-2
PSG 1-5
Bayern 3-2

Arsenal 0-2
Atleti 2-0

PSG 4-0

That's 3 wins and 3 losses.

Ancelotti:

Schalke 1-3
Dortmund 2-0
Bayern 0-4

Schalke 4-3
Atleti 0-0
Juve 2-1

Arsenal 1-5

3 wins 1 draw and 3 losses

Those two have won more away KO games in their last 6/7 than Pep has in his last 12. It's not an arbitrary stat IMO, it shows his tactical naivety away from home in the CL.
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Let's do the comparison over a wider sample of games, shall we? All numbers below are statistics for away games in European knockout competition (CL, EL), excluding finals. I added Simeone's 3 losses in the Copa Libertadores because I was bored, but feel free to leave it out. First 6 managers have more than 20 knockouts under their belt.

Wins Draws Defeats Sum Reference

Guardiola 4 7 9 20 2009/10 inter
Ancelotti 6 8 6 20 2004/05 PSV
Mourinho 6 7 7 20 2006/07 Liverpool
Ferguson 8 4 8 20 2002/03 Madrid
Wenger 4 5 11 20 2003/04 Chelsea
Benitez 7 4 9 20 2006/07 Chelsea

Over his last 20 games, Guardiola has lost 2 more games than Mourinho, 3 more games than Ancelotti, and 1 more game than Ferguson. Not enough to distinguish him as tactically naive compared to those 3. Ignoring draws, no manager has a winning record in away games, and for good reason. They're tough contests. That's why even scoring an away goal grants you an advantage. Treating away draws as an advantage, the math comes out to

Guardiola 11 9 20 2009/10 inter
Ancelotti 14 6 20 2004/05 PSV
Mourinho 13 7 20 2006/07 Liverpool
Ferguson 12 8 20 2002/03 Madrid
Wenger 9 11 20 2003/04 Chelsea
Benitez 11 9 20 2006/07 Chelsea

Ancelotti comes out in front, but his 20 game stretch goes all the way back to the 2004/05 defeat at PSV. Fergie retired in 2013, and his stretch goes back to the Madrid game, a span of 10 years. Mourinho is ahead of Guardiola by 2 games, which is a fair assessment.

Below are the records of managers who have not hit 20 games yet. Of the bunch, Simeone's record is the most impressive, with 8 wins and 10 wins + draws out of 14 contests away from home. Conte has only 4 wins. Klopp has only one win, but his 6 win+draw combo was enough to see him through to 2 European finals. Moyes...

Conte 4 2 6 2012/13 Celtic
Klopp 1 5 4 10 2012/13 Donetsk
Simeone 8 2 4 14 2011/12 Lazio + 3 losses Copa Lib.
Pochettino 1 3 4 2014/15 Fiorentina
Moyes 0 0 2 2 I don't recall.

Overall, the data doesn't support the notion that Guardiola is significantly more tactically naive than his counterparts. The converse would suggest that he should have more CL titles to his name. That accusation can be levied at Mourinho, Ferguson, Ancelotti...
 
do.ob said:
City's squad isn't build to sit deep and soak up pressure and their players aren't used to it. Furthermore Monaco are tactically well drilled and employ a very effective pressing. So it's completely understandable to try to gain security and confidence via control, instead of loading up the team with defensive minded players, without a clear match plan and then watch your team crumble because they lack the automatisms and tools to play through Monaco's pressure.

It's easy to call every big decision crap in hindsight when they lost, but a defensive strategy could've gone to shit just as easily.

City's squad is both a lot worse in quality and ill-fitting to his style than what he used to work with at Bayern, so it's naive to expect similar results so soon from him.
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If there's no plan B that's on the manager. This is why he never has and never will (unless he changes) win a CL without Messi.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
His teams have been poor in CL away games. Notably in the knockout rounds. Actually has a Pep led team won more an away game in the CL knockout phase? I can only recall Barcelona's win over Leverkusen in 2011-2012. Nothing else comes to mind.
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That's atrocious considering he's coached Barcelona and Bayern Munich over 7 years.
 
Suedesi said:
That's atrocious considering he's coached Barcelona and Bayern Munich over 7 years.
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There were a few more games I forgot his teams have won.

But someone posted his away record in the CL and it's pretty poor.
 
LawCharltonBest said:
I get the impression with Guardiola that he is very weak mentally

Sir Alex and his mind games would've had an absolute field day with him
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Earthquake said:
He'd have broken Guardiola, Klopp, and Conte before breaking a sweat.
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Did Sir Alex attempt to play mindgames with Pep before the two CL finals in 2009 and 2011 by any chance?

Sir Alex was the big dog in England, so it was easy to play his mindgames. It's easy to get into someone else's head and fluster them when they are struggling and you're winning.

But in Europe he wasn't the big dog, and he wasn't immune to getting flustered. This was his reaction when United drew Madrid in 2003:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2400693/Ferguson-fined-for-claiming-UEFA-draw-was-fixed.html
 
Honestly, i rated him very very highly but its hard to still think that way after what has just happened at city. Is all his success really just about kicking Deco and Dinho out and basing the team on Iniesta, Xavi and Messi? It's really starting to look that way. Wasn't impressed with what happened at Bayern as all they did was regress, at city they've stagnated. We all know the individual quality at Barca has been unreal for nigh on a decade now, maybe just maybe without it he wouldn't be anywhere near as revered.
 
Either he didn't realise how average the City squad was overall or he thought his shit didn't stink and he would add the midas touch. Either way, he has alot of work to do to live up to his billing.
 
OutlawGER said:
How is it even possible for Man City, to not have a world class squad, with spending so huge over the past decade?

City surely has one of the best squads in Europe. That is world class.
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English teams waste money on a regular basis. This isnt bayern and dortmund who keep making good to great signings every summer, this is a league where a team spends 200million on Stones, Mangala, Otamendi, Fernando and sterling.
 
Infordin said:
Did Sir Alex attempt to play mindgames with Pep before the two CL finals in 2009 and 2011 by any chance?

Sir Alex was the big dog in England, so it was easy to play his mindgames. It's easy to get into someone else's head and fluster them when they are struggling and you're winning.

But in Europe he wasn't the big dog, and he wasn't immune to getting flustered. This was his reaction when United drew Madrid in 2003:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2400693/Ferguson-fined-for-claiming-UEFA-draw-was-fixed.html
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The 2011 final SAF was shut down for good with Giggs' scandal (he was angry with Giggs for this).
adexkola said:
Let's do the comparison over a wider sample of games, shall we? All numbers below are statistics for away games in European knockout competition (CL, EL), excluding finals. I added Simeone's 3 losses in the Copa Libertadores because I was bored, but feel free to leave it out. First 6 managers have more than 20 knockouts under their belt.

Wins Draws Defeats Sum Reference

Guardiola 4 7 9 20 2009/10 inter
Ancelotti 6 8 6 20 2004/05 PSV
Mourinho 6 7 7 20 2006/07 Liverpool
Ferguson 8 4 8 20 2002/03 Madrid
Wenger 4 5 11 20 2003/04 Chelsea
Benitez 7 4 9 20 2006/07 Chelsea

Over his last 20 games, Guardiola has lost 2 more games than Mourinho, 3 more games than Ancelotti, and 1 more game than Ferguson. Not enough to distinguish him as tactically naive compared to those 3. Ignoring draws, no manager has a winning record in away games, and for good reason. They're tough contests. That's why even scoring an away goal grants you an advantage. Treating away draws as an advantage, the math comes out to

Guardiola 11 9 20 2009/10 inter
Ancelotti 14 6 20 2004/05 PSV
Mourinho 13 7 20 2006/07 Liverpool
Ferguson 12 8 20 2002/03 Madrid
Wenger 9 11 20 2003/04 Chelsea
Benitez 11 9 20 2006/07 Chelsea

Ancelotti comes out in front, but his 20 game stretch goes all the way back to the 2004/05 defeat at PSV. Fergie retired in 2013, and his stretch goes back to the Madrid game, a span of 10 years. Mourinho is ahead of Guardiola by 2 games, which is a fair assessment.

Below are the records of managers who have not hit 20 games yet. Of the bunch, Simeone's record is the most impressive, with 8 wins and 10 wins + draws out of 14 contests away from home. Conte has only 4 wins. Klopp has only one win, but his 6 win+draw combo was enough to see him through to 2 European finals. Moyes...

Conte 4 2 6 2012/13 Celtic
Klopp 1 5 4 10 2012/13 Donetsk
Simeone 8 2 4 14 2011/12 Lazio + 3 losses Copa Lib.
Pochettino 1 3 4 2014/15 Fiorentina
Moyes 0 0 2 2 I don't recall.

Overall, the data doesn't support the notion that Guardiola is significantly more tactically naive than his counterparts. The converse would suggest that he should have more CL titles to his name. That accusation can be levied at Mourinho, Ferguson, Ancelotti...
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The thing is you need to bring specific ties into context. Pep defeat away often being convincing & left his team in tough position for the return leg. Mourinho, Ancelotti, SAF (latter year) defeat, they more often than not got their in more controlled defeat than Pep. Not to forget more often than not, Pep team was deemed as better team than the opponent. For example: Pep Barcelona lost to Mourinho Inter with 2 goal difference was a big deal as Mourinho Inter with 10 men got a controlled loss that see them through to final. Pep Barcelona got luck with 1 shot on goal = the equalizing goal to get them to final in that infamous game or they're stuck at not being able to score against Chelsea in knock out phase (latter with Di Matteo's Chelsea). Similarly against Atletico. Even Moyes' United could cling to some hope until Bayern second goal in the return leg...

How should I put it? It's like Pep team was always sucked into the home team's tactic: give away the ball so they can counter attack. It happens like everytime it's getting boring. This gives off the feel of naivety as I pointed above. Most of the time Pep's team were the favorite of the tie.
 
I would still judge him after second season,
I think he is good manager, and he can adapt to PL but it will take lot of time.
City's biggest problem is all players has similar style of play, you need players to have some different style if you ever going to have plan B.
Now its up-to Pep to buy or find player in squad, it will going to be huge transfer summer for them.
 
dichinero said:
Putting red tinted glasses aside and can be said about José. Both have spent a ton of money and have underperformed so far however you want to look at it. If José needs time, so does Pep. It looks like we are making progress but we are not out of the woods yet. If we flop tomorrow, we are done for. On the other hand, they are still in the FA cup and are almost guaranteed 4th. Glasses house and what not
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Well, exactly. Mourinho inherited an FA Cup winning team and added one of the best players from each of the Italian, French and German leagues. Neither Guardiola nor Mourinho has had a great season (especially when looking at what Conte's done) but to write either off is silly.

EDIT: also, it's not as if there should be any shame in losing to this Monaco team. They're one of the best teams in the world, if a little suspect defensively.
 
squiggle said:
Well, exactly. Mourinho inherited an FA Cup winning team and added one of the best players from each of the Italian, French and German leagues. Neither Guardiola nor Mourinho has had a great season (especially when looking at what Conte's done) but to write either off is silly.
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:lol:

Yeah. Whoever inherited Martinez FA Cup winning team must be over the moon back in the day...:rolleyes:
 
Emoticons... always the sign of a great argument. Wigan's collapse after their victory shouldn't devalue the Cup, any more than poor seasons after winning the title should devalue the title. Theirs was a one off. Unlike Wigan, MU's team was pretty sturdy - Van Gaal won the FA Cup and finished 5th; Pellegrini didn't win the FA Cup and finished fourth.

Edit: spelling
 
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MullerUtd said:
I think Conte would be fine. Didn't Ancelotti win the double with Chelsea when we still had SAF? Although he would only last a season or two. Mourinho is the only manager who could stand toe to toe with SAF.
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Not really. Mou won during the period of transition between the class of 92 team and the cristiano-rooney team. SAF didn't have a team ready to challenge Chelsea in those two years
 
squiggle said:
Emoticons... always the sign of a great argument. Wigan's collapse after their victory shouldn't devalue the Cup, any more than poor seasons after winning the title should devalue the title. Their's was a one off. Unlike Wigan, MU's team was pretty sturdy - Van Gaal won the FA Cup and finished 5th; Pellegrini didn't win the FA Cup and finished fourth.
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Show how clueless you're. Wigan was relegated same season (aka before FA Cup final)! How about Portsmouth won FA Cup in 2008 but pretty regular relegation battler. They reached another FA Cup final in 2010 in same season got relegated.

Pellegrini won League Cup was still within catching distance to table leader before Pep ruined him by having City announced he joining City comes next season aka officially sacking Pellegrini.

You shouldn't educate us on United matter. We loved it when we won the FA Cup, but it's nothing as tough as winning a title. LVG's United was exposed when it comes to bigger competition such as the league (keep bottling important game which would see us finish in top 4), crashing out of CL, underwhelming EL run... It's not a solid team going into the next season with confidence to actually win title. FA Cup winning is no parameter to measure a team quality, but rather just a competition to give the inexperienced players a chance to experience winning something to later build on it. Hardly created more than a handful of shot on target each game, with DDG kept winning PoTY saving our ass. No amount of useless stat could paint a beautiful picture on how quality that LVG's side was.

We had been going through major identity change with Mourinho from what LVG build. If anything, as explained, City had the ground work built for Pep for quite few years already. He came in adding some tweaking but still pretty Pellegrini' City level.
 
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So are some of you saying that we should judge Pep on his first season at City but we should not judge Mourinho on his 1st season at United?
Pep has not been great this season but Mourinho has been worse. The PL table tells you so
 
A lot of opinions on here, just a few thoughts.

His biggest gaffe this season is undoubtedly going with the group of FB's he has done. I can only think that he wanted another year before deciding whether to promote from within (Maffeo may make it, Angelino probably won't for us) rather than spend a wedge on outsiders.
Kolarov will probably stay another year or two given his versatility but Clichy, Sagna and Zab will surely be replaced.

The long term injuries to players of the quality of Gundogan and Gabriel were big blows but I suppose that's what a squad is for.

Not using Yaya seemed strange but pacy, athletic teams like Monaco have seemed to bypass him lately. Maybe Pep is picking and choosing games for him?
De Bruyne was awful in the first half last night but when dropped back in the second was much more effective.

Disappointing to go out of the tournament but realistically we had no claims to actually win it so this softens the blow.

All attention now to cementing our Top 4 place with some tough games ahead and also taking the opportunity to finish the season with a Trophy.

Then the serious business of remodelling the squad for a good run at top honours next season.
 
Logical Fan said:
So are some of you saying that we should judge Pep on his first season at City but we should not judge Mourinho on his 1st season at United?
Pep has not been great this season but Mourinho has been worse. The PL table tells you so
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Not so. Both would be judged on their season but with different parameters as:

Pep had ground work laid by his friends. The style from last regime is not far of from what Pep wanted. Continue with bad signings who for one reason or another couldn't contribute, or right out liability

Mourinho needed to change the whole identity from a team playing possession, having GK being consecutive PoTY. Couldn't create chance to create enough chance to win (still need to improve goal scoring). Signings were not fit for the team, now become under Mourinho promising by showing sign of improving the squad but still not reach full potential. Squad still has problem. Still bottle in game that break the team into top 4.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Just another £250m in the transfer market and they will lose heavily in the semi finals instead. The magic will come.
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City are not linked with any mega bucks signings this summer ATM. Doubt we'll be lashing out Pogba, deMaria or Griezmann money on one player.
There is no interest in assembling a team of Galacticos but we will pay what it takes to get the best players we need to play to Pep's style. 3 or 4 players in the 20-40m range are more likely.
We have some fine players in the academy but unfortunately they mostly duplicate the positions that we are already strong at. May save us a packet in a year or two though when the likes of Silva and Fernandinho are ready to be replaced.
 
Although I like Guardiola I think that Mourinho or Conte wouldn't throw away a 5-3 in the first leg.
 
VanGaalEra said:
No show tonight @Kevin after you going balls deep for Pep in this thread? You love saying you told people so.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/champions-league-gameweek-4.423270/page-12#post-20000368
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Far too early my eager little friend. Far too early. Mourinho isnt pulling up trees either unfortunately, he is doing worse with the same amount of money to spend after respective squads finished on the same amount of points last season, with the difference that our manager has more experience in this league whereas Pep is in his first season... it seems the caf was very scared of him as the misplaced euphorism on here is grand for no particular reason... yet.
 
I dislike City and Pep as much as the next guy but it's silly to be judging him after one season. He's a very good manager, but he's not a miracle worker. He didn't do as well with this City squad than he did with Barca and Bayern? Well, no shit. They're still in transition as much as we are.
 
Logical Fan said:
So are some of you saying that we should judge Pep on his first season at City but we should not judge Mourinho on his 1st season at United?
Pep has not been great this season but Mourinho has been worse. The PL table tells you so
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I'm saying that people in the media are very quick to judge Jose first season, despite having a tougher job to begin with but seem, up until maybe now reluctant to judge Pep and almost no one mentions the large sums of money they spent during the summer.

The season isn't over yet, we still have every chance of finishing top four so can't really judge until 38 games have been played but in short, City are worse off this season than they were this time last year despite having the worlds supposedly greatest manager.
 
Gentleman Jim said:
City are not linked with any mega bucks signings this summer ATM. Doubt we'll be lashing out Pogba, deMaria or Griezmann money on one player.
There is no interest in assembling a team of Galacticos but we will pay what it takes to get the best players we need to play to Pep's style. 3 or 4 players in the 20-40m range are more likely.
We have some fine players in the academy but unfortunately they mostly duplicate the positions that we are already strong at. May save us a packet in a year or two though when the likes of Silva and Fernandinho are ready to be replaced.
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I think City will spend big this summer. They need few players to replace the older players and also players who aren't good. The way Pep wants to play every player should be good on the ball and they won't come cheap unless City have improved their scouting significantly.
 
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