Man Utd set to appoint Director of Football (when hell freezes over)

[kafta]

Nothing is more obvious than our club needing a director of football. Get it done ffs.

 

[Sky1981]

At the football aspect yes, but there is no reason for why we can't compete for big trophies and at the same time pay dividends to the owners. It is not as easy as doing only one of them, but they are not mutually exclusive.

Name a better owner that's not a petrodollar prince or oligarch

 

[Revan]

So Caf is now an expert on the difference between a Director of Football and Technical Director?

 

[JPRouve]

Name a better owner that's not a petrodollar prince or oligarch

J-M Aulas, Lyon grew extraordinarily since he purchased it with Seydoux, he even managed to finance a great stadium and training complex that is totally owned by the club.

 

[JPRouve]

So Caf is now an expert on the difference between a Director of Football and Technical Director?

There is no difference.

 

[PvsNP]

J-M Aulas, Lyon grew extraordinarily since he purchased it with Seydoux, he even managed to finance a great stadium and training complex that is totally owned by the club.

Also turned Lyon's youth academy into one of the best around.

 

[Sky1981]

J-M Aulas, Lyon grew extraordinarily since he purchased it with Seydoux, he even managed to finance a great stadium and training complex that is totally owned by the club.

How much of his own money he injected? Did he take any dividents? Salary?

 

[tenpoless]

Why don't We have a technical fan director? to post on RedCafe and make sure fans opinions are heard.

 

[Kapardin]

of course, we all understand you can make a mistake and sign wrong DOF? And that it is mistake that needs even more time to fix as he will hide behind manager who will take a responsibility for results, so at least a couple of managers will need to fail to be able to remove DOF? And DOF will be chosen by Woodward, so mistake will happen.

Of course, look at Steve Walsh and Everton. Could well happen.

But you need to hire wisely. I don't think we can go wrong with someone like Monchi, brilliant track record and can even likely find bargains to suit the Glazers' penny pinching apart from the odd Neymar and Bale wild goosechase that Ed goes on regularly.

 

[Revan]

There is no difference.

Exactly, which made me laugh at people complaining about this (whom a few of them didn't know what is a DoF in the first place until recently).

 

[Revan]

Why would he dream about it when he doesn't want to play that way? He's won more than Klopp can ever dream of himself by playing counterattacking football.

They're not better than us until they finish above us, simple. No matter how pretty they're football is.

They reached UCL finals, while we got eliminated in 1/8th of final. They had a better season than us, and now have improved.

 

[Revan]

What about hiring managers who's style don't suit the players on disposal and then not getting the squad the current manager can get the best off?

7 of the players in the starting lineup were bought from Mourinho (counting Sanchez and Matic too). The rest are De Gea (our best player by a fair distance), Valencia (the player Mourinho made captain), the '50 matches per season Young' and Mata or whoever plays on the right wing. Bar Mata, all others are either players that Mourinho signed, or players that he really likes.

If they don't suit his style, then he has himself to blame.

 

[manichester]

Whatever we decide DoF/TD it will just be another cog in a broken gearbox. Everything seems to be done in slow motion and preparing, without much happening much like our on pitch performances, pass being pass the buck.

 

[JPRouve]

How much of his own money he injected? Did he take any dividents? Salary?

I don't have figures on what they put in it but it's hundreds of millions for the the stadium and training center alone, they have been doing the same since 1987. Now the club is a PLC since 2007, Aulas and Seydoux are the main shareholders but they don't really get money from Lyon, Aulas brought someone to manage his company while he focuses on Lyon, he is mainly paid by his own company CEGID while he works almost full time for OL Group even though officially he is paid one year by Lyon and the other year by CEGID , around 800k€ per year.

 

[Revan]

I still harbor my own conspiracy theory suspicion that Moyes had a hush-hush handshake deal to wait and sign Fellaini until the end of the window when the price went up, so he could get a cut from Everton. That or he's just a deluded simpleton who thought he could feign ignorance and "do right" by his former club. He was a twat, so it could be either (but probably neither).

Not going into conspiracy theories, but based on what Moyes said: He knew that Everton needs money, and if we signed Fellaini (release clause) then they won't need to sell Baines. So every bid we made up to the final day, was a joined bid for Fellaini and Baines. On the last day when it was clear that he had underestimated Everton/Kenwright's deal, we split the bid and bid only for Fellaini, whose release clause had expired.

On other words, we tried to look smart but looked idiots in the process. Considering that Moyes was meant to be an all powerful-manager in the ilk of Fergie and considering that he knew better than anyone else at the club the finances of Everton and how they operate, then I think that deal (and that transfer window in general) is on him.

The others (good or bad) are on Woodward, be it for failing to get some players, or for choosing the wrong manager and then either backing him blindly (like LVG and Mourinho until this summer) or just terminating the backing, when in truth after Moyes' fiasco and knowing that both LVG and Mourinho are very short term managers, we should have had a structure in place independent of changes of managers who would be tasked with signing players (and managers).

 

[shaky]

Whatever we decide DoF/TD it will just be another cog in a broken gearbox. Everything seems to be done in slow motion and preparing, without much happening much like our on pitch performances, pass being pass the buck.

Seems like it. Ed is bored with the pressure of being the middle man between Jose and The Glazers, now he just wants someone to be the middle man between himself and Mourinho instead. Will it change anything other than giving Woodie an easier life and making him less accountable for the next transfer shitstorm?

 

[JPRouve]

Seems like it. Ed is bored with the pressure of being the middle man between Jose and The Glazers, now he just wants someone to be the middle man between himself and Mourinho instead. Will it change anything other than giving Woodie an easier life and making him less accountable for the next transfer shitstorm?

Surely you realize that Woodward is an employee, any change of structure particularly that type of change will come from the owner and in particular the man that everyone seem to forget when it comes to daily affairs, Avram Glazer. If we bring a DOF, it will have nothing to do with Woodward being bored or making himself less accountable but everything to do with the owner thinking that the current organization doesn't maximize the club's assets.

 

[Revan]

I agree with you but I have one question. Do you accept the possibility that the board has lost trust in the manager's ability to identify and improve the correct players? When I look at his purchase and how they performed, I understand why someone would think "You are not doing a Mkhitaryan, Bailly, Lindelof on us again and stop using Lukaku as a target man he has never been one."

That's a fair point (and it makes sense) but if this is true then we should have: either sacked Mourinho or hired a DoF who would be in charge of signings. Maybe both.

The failure to do anything makes Woody look very poor in my opinion. He is the highest executive on the club (not counting the two Glazers who doesn't seem to get involved much) so him choosing to do nothing is a big failure. The only way this makes sense (and it doesn't make sense much), is if we have a deal with Zidane for next season (maybe Zidane just wanted a sabbatical) and Woody already has counted this season a failure, so he will use this season to get a DoF (in addition to Zidane/new manager), scout better players and so on.

However, considering that the club so far has not been able to think a day ahead, I doubt that this time he has made such long term plans. And well, we signed Fred who was both overpriced and a Mourinho's signing, so if the previous paragraph made sense, then why we signed him.

I guess it is more likely that Woody and Mourinho cocked up somewhere, and both of them are trying to share blame, or put the entire blame on the other person. Which makes important that when Mourinho goes, Woody should follow too (either entirely, or to not have much football decisions and to be relegated to his previous post).

 

[shaky]

Surely you realize that Woodward is an employee, any change of structure particularly that type of change will come from the owner and in particular the man that everyone seem to forget when it comes to daily affairs, Avram Glazer. If we bring a DOF, it will have nothing to do with Woodward being bored or making himself less accountable but everything to do with the owner thinking that the current organization doesn't maximize the club's assets.

That the optimistic point of view i suppose. Obviously the Glazers make the final decision but what makes you so sure it was their idea and not Ed's? I guess we'll see once we find out who's getting the gig and how much say they actually have on our transfer policy.

 

[Sky1981]

I don't have figures on what they put in it but it's hundreds of millions for the the stadium and training center alone, they have been doing the same since 1987. Now the club is a PLC since 2007, Aulas and Seydoux are the main shareholders but they don't really get money from Lyon, Aulas brought someone to manage his company while he focuses on Lyon, he is mainly paid by his own company CEGID while he works almost full time for OL Group even though officially he is paid one year by Lyon and the other year by CEGID , around 800k€ per year.

This is a very simplistic ways. He might not get actual money but he's the biggest shareholder. His shares aka assets keep going up. And the day ye eventually sold his share he'll take back everything.

He might be a shrewd owner. But i dont believe he actually donated hundreds of millions of fresh money to the club. Nobody does that.

Ps. The fact that lyon is a plc means aulas has cashed in some of his shares? Yes?

 

[Zoo]

Ed got into bed with Raiola and Jose.

Now he to show some leadership and stop allowing the club to be such a huge soap opera.

 

[JPRouve]

This is a very simplistic ways. He might not get actual money but he's the biggest shareholder. His shares aka assets keep going up. And the day ye eventually sold his share he'll take back everything.

He might be a shrewd owner. But i dont believe he actually donated hundreds of millions of fresh money to the club. Nobody does that.

Ps. The fact that lyon is a plc means aulas has cashed in some of his shares? Yes?

In France sport ownership isn't really a business, most owners are sponsors and lose money. Altrad, the late RLD, the Seydoux brothers, Niccolin or Pinault.

And the fact that it's a PLC means that we know his revenue and I gave them to you, it's the ones he gets from CEGID.

 

[JPRouve]

That the optimistic point of view i suppose. Obviously the Glazers make the final decision but what makes you so sure it was their idea and not Ed's? I guess we'll see once we find out who's getting the gig and how much say they actually have on our transfer policy.

It's not optimistic, it's the most logical view. Yours would mean that the Glazer family who is already involved in sport management and is also successfully managing huge businesses are going to hire someone to pay someone just because one of their employee is bored by doing his job. It also ignores the fact that the Glazer are familiar with the head coach-GM model.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Surely you realize that Woodward is an employee, any change of structure particularly that type of change will come from the owner and in particular the man that everyone seem to forget when it comes to daily affairs, Avram Glazer. If we bring a DOF, it will have nothing to do with Woodward being bored or making himself less accountable but everything to do with the owner thinking that the current organization doesn't maximize the club's assets.

You think? I've no idea exactly what Ed's specific brief is but CEOs are well capable of making structural changes to a privately owned company off their own initiative. Being capable of making big decisions like this is why they're paid so much money! He'd need to sell the proposal to the Glazers, sure, but the DoF idea could definitely start with him.

 

[JPRouve]

You think? I've no idea exactly what Ed's specific brief is but CEOs are well capable of making structural changes to a privately owned company off their own initiative. Being capable of making big decisions like this is why they're paid so much money! He'd need to sell the proposal to the Glazers, sure, but the DoF idea could definitely start with him.

From what I understand we have a strange organization, Avram is the Chairman, he deals with daily issues with his vice-chairman Woodward, the former is the main power figure, then you need to take into account that the Glazer are involved in US sports management, they understand what it is and how things work. That's the point I'm making here, acting as if Woodward was going to bamboozle anyone is in my opinion naive, particularly when he has to deal with his boss on a daily basis and when we are basing discussing about the fact that he isn't duping the fans.

You understand my point? If we change the structure it will be because the Glazer thinks that it's a good idea for them and the club, not because Woodward got bored, whatever it's supposed to mean.

 

[pascell]

What about Gary Neville as DoF understands the economical side with his involvement with Salford City and other businesses but importantly is passionate about the club and knows what the fans want in terms of playing style and this is likely to be reflected in the type of player recruitment. This is likely to act as a bridge between Jose and Ed and might smooth things out a bit.

Pretty sure he can't take the job even if offered without selling his shares in Salford, due to conflict of interests. You're not allowed to play a role at 2 different clubs in the same national league system.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

From what I understand we have a strange organization, Avram is the Chairman, he deals with daily issues with his vice-chairman Woodward, the former is the main power figure, then you need to take into account that the Glazer are involved in US sports management, they understand what it is and how things work. That's the point I'm making here, acting as if Woodward was going to bamboozle anyone is in my opinion naive, particularly when he has to deal with his boss on a daily basis and when we are basing discussing about the fact that he isn't duping the fans.

You understand my point?

I don't think he could bamboozle someone by hiring a DoF even if he wanted to. Be putting himself in a ridiculously awkward situation with no clear upside, if that really was his intention. So yeah, I don't think he is intending to hire a DoF as some sort of elaborate plan to cover his arse.

But I do think he could be behind the initiative because he's realised he lacks the competencies to stay as involved in the footballing side of things as he's become in recent years. At least I hope he has that level of insight! Obviously, the Glazers would also need to be on board but looking at what's going on up the road at City it should be a fairly easy sell.

 

[JPRouve]

I don't think he could bamboozle someone by hiring a DoF even if he wanted to. Be putting himself in a ridiculously awkward situation with no clear upside, if that really was his intention. So yeah, I don't think he is intending to hire a DoF as some sort of elaborate plan to cover his arse.

But I do think he could be behind the initiative because he's realised he lacks the competencies to stay as involved in the footballing side of things as he's become in recent years. At least I hope he has that level of insight! Obviously, the Glazers would also need to be on board but looking at what's going on up the road at City it should be a fairly easy sell.

The second paragraph is kind of my point, I think that the position will only be created if Woodward agrees or expresses the idea that he needs help which to me leads to two things first that he admits his limitations and that by doing so he can't really hide them. As an employee he needs to justify his actions, creating a high profile job like DOF means relatively big financial investment, there is no way his chairman just look the other way. And @shaky's point seemed to lead to that, maybe I just misunderstood though.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The second paragraph is kind of my point, I think that the position will only be created if Woodward agrees or expresses the idea that he needs help which to me leads to two things first that he admits his limitations and that by doing so he can't really hide them. As an employee he needs to justify his actions, creating a high profile job like DOF means relatively big financial investment, there is no way the his chairman just look the other way. And @shaky's point seemed to lead to that, maybe I just misunderstood though.

I don’t think you misunderstood his post and I do think you were correct to disagree. It’s a conspiracy theory too far IMO.

 

[Hughie77]

Dof, wont make a difference. The players are still coached in same way?

 

[JPRouve]

Dof, wont make a difference. The players are still coached in same way?

In theory a DOF makes a huge difference by working on two things, create a coherent and balanced squad, bring a manager that fits the squad.

 

[LonelyFire]

A Technical Director is a job with the future in mind. Jose Mourinho is a manager for the here and now.

It’s the right step to make this appointment but it won’t work with the current manager unfortunately. If they are intending on appointing someone by January then I think it’s clear they are anticipating a managerial change shortly thereafter.

 

[YouOnlyLiveTwice]

In theory a DOF makes a huge difference by working on two things, create a coherent and balanced squad bring a manager that fits the squad.

It's as fecking simple as that. This is what a good DOF does. This is what we need. Come on Woodward!!

 

[endless_wheelies]

Surely you realize that Woodward is an employee, any change of structure particularly that type of change will come from the owner and in particular the man that everyone seem to forget when it comes to daily affairs, Avram Glazer. If we bring a DOF, it will have nothing to do with Woodward being bored or making himself less accountable but everything to do with the owner thinking that the current organization doesn't maximize the club's assets.

What makes you say that? If the board trusts Woodward completely - which they seem to - and all the structure change is all happening beneath his own untouchable power - seems to be the case - then it's more than likely the board have tasked Woodward with executing it. He obviously needed the board's approval but I have no doubt it was his brainchild also.

 

[JPRouve]

What makes you say that? If the board trusts Woodward completely - which they seem to - and all the structure change is all happening beneath his own untouchable power - seems to be the case - then it's more than likely the board have tasked Woodward with executing it. He obviously needed the board's approval but I have no doubt it was his brainchild also.

This is what I'm saying. Unless people think that the Glazers are careless idiots, they will ask him the most common question ever "Why?" and since money is involved he better have a good answer. Or the idea comes from their own experience in sports management, either way the theory that he is trying to hide himself and will use someone to do so is in my opinion foolish.

 

[LonelyFire]

This is what I'm saying. Unless people think that the Glazers are careless idiots, they will ask him the most common question ever "Why?" and since money is involved he better have a good answer. Or the idea comes from their own experience in sports management, either way the theory that he is trying to hide himself and will use someone to do so is in my opinion foolish.

The idea that anyone other than the Glazers is/are making decisions involving financial expenditure is ludicrous.

 

[POF]

Whoever is in this role will obviously still report to Woodward so all of the talk of Woodward relinquishing control to the new Technical Director/DoF is completely irrelevant.

But the biggest worry from the Ogden article is the insinuation that the new role won't drive the transfer strategy. From the reports of how the transfer strategy currently works with Jose's list and Woody trying to sign those players when he gets around to it, it needs a huge overhaul.

 

[endless_wheelies]

This is what I'm saying. Unless people think that the Glazers are careless idiots, they will ask him the most common question ever "Why?" and since money is involved he better have a good answer. Or the idea comes from their own experience in sports management, either way the theory that he is trying to hide himself and will use someone to do so is in my opinion foolish.

See it's the "good" answer I'm not so sure on. I think the relationship between the Glazers and Woodward is such that he could simply hold up a shit-stained napkin in response to "why" and they'd applaud him out the room.

 

[Revan]

I don't have figures on what they put in it but it's hundreds of millions for the the stadium and training center alone, they have been doing the same since 1987. Now the club is a PLC since 2007, Aulas and Seydoux are the main shareholders but they don't really get money from Lyon, Aulas brought someone to manage his company while he focuses on Lyon, he is mainly paid by his own company CEGID while he works almost full time for OL Group even though officially he is paid one year by Lyon and the other year by CEGID , around 800k€ per year.

He seems like a fan. Didn't know they still exist in modern football.

 

[Revan]

You think? I've no idea exactly what Ed's specific brief is but CEOs are well capable of making structural changes to a privately owned company off their own initiative. Being capable of making big decisions like this is why they're paid so much money! He'd need to sell the proposal to the Glazers, sure, but the DoF idea could definitely start with him.

A mistake that I made too. While Gill was executive chairman under Glazers (he was since 2003, so before Glazers came), Ed is 'just' a vice executive chairman *, with two of the Glazers siblings being co-executive chairmans. Essentially, Ed is not a CEO, the two Glazers guys are co-CEO (and co-chairmen of the board). Now, it is not clear how heavy they are involved in day to day workings of the club (and I doubt it is very much considering that they don't live in England) and the fact that Glazers don't do interviews might make us believe that it is Ed who has full power. Might be true, but it also might be that Woody is just an intermediary between them and the other people at club.

* On practice, probably there isn't much difference between Gill's and Ed's power and role, considering that Glazers control the majority of shares, and can fire executive/vice-executive chairman at any moment, which is a bit different to large companies, when no-one controls most of the shares, so the CEO has more power.