Man Utd set to appoint Director of Football (when hell freezes over)

[Alabaster Codify7]

The reality is - we have a DoF...

It' just that no-one wants to admit it, including the club themselves.

Yep and he's going nowhere because why would they add another big earner to the payroll if they don't have to?

And no, as long as those season tickets are renewed, they don't have to right now.

 

[IRELANDUNITED]

Antero Henrique is 3/10 to become the DOF for United, I have no idea who he is, if he's any good or not? but it appears to be likely happening

 

[pascell]

Antero Henrique is 3/10 to become the DOF for United, I have no idea who he is, if he's any good or not? but it appears to be likely happening

If you don't know who he is, then it's best for you to not know, his track record is appalling to the level that Bayern suggested that PSG get rid of him for their own good.

 

[Class of 63]

If you don't know who he is, then it's best for you to not know, his track record is appalling to the level that Bayern suggested that PSG get rid of him for their own good.

Bayern Munich sticking their nose in, never!!!!

 

[Gehrman]

What's been our downfall is non football people thinking they know better than the football people

Woodward didn't give LVG the players he wanted and then sacked him
He then didn't give Mourinho the players he wanted and then sacked him
He now has Ole who it remains to be seen whether or not will be backed and survive in the job

We have one of the highest transfer and wages expenditures in football since 2013. Only behind Man City and PSG.

 

[UpWithRivers]

What's wrong with Campos. His track record of finding talent is impressive.

 

[Infra-red]

Antero Henrique is 3/10 to become the DOF for United, I have no idea who he is, if he's any good or not? but it appears to be likely happening

By all accounts, he's absolutely dreadful. Thankfully, those betting markets are meaningless - someone probably put a fiver on him.

 

[steffyr2]

According to Jason Burt of The Daily Telegraph, every player signed during Mourinho's tenure at United was signed on his say so. Only the biased Duncan Castles would say otherwise.

Mourinho wasted too much funds and lost the faith of the United hierachy. Woodward was right to reign in his spending. He was heavily backed without question.

Everything comes back to actually having a Sporting Director that understands the market. And until that happens be prepared for more signings that are vastly over priced.

Weird how Mourinho got us back into the CL, won the Europa Cup and came in 2nd....but the Utd hierarchy lost faith? I can believe that playing well enough to come in 2nd cost more than the club wanted to spend.

At the time, the theory was the Mourinho was holding the players back, but that theory didn't last long.

 

[Adnan]

.

Weird how Mourinho got us back into the CL, won the Europa Cup and came in 2nd....but the Utd hierarchy lost faith? I can believe that playing well enough to come in 2nd cost more than the club wanted to spend.

At the time, the theory was the Mourinho was holding the players back, but that theory didn't last long.

Most managers would've got us back into the Champions league with the backing Mourinho got tbf.

 

[steffyr2]

.

Most managers would've got us back into the Champions league with the backing Mourinho got tbf.

Ole has the benefit of all of Mourinho's backing plus 200M more....do you think CL is guaranteed?

 

[Adnan]

Ole has the benefit of all of Mourinho's backing plus 200M more....do you think CL is guaranteed?

Ole doesn't have the benefit of Mourinho's backing because Pogba has been injured for the majority of the season and Ole didn't fancy Lukaku so he was sold. Bailly has been injured for the majority of the season too and Matic is another that Ole doesn't fancy but has to play him due to the state of our midfield.

He's inherited £50m Fred, £40m Matic and £30m Lindelof though, which is £120m that could've been better spent elsewhere.

Apart from Pogba, the rest were overpriced players that most would never have signed and are hardly a benefit for a incoming manager.

 

[SparkedIntoLife]

What's wrong with Campos. His track record of finding talent is impressive.

I totally agree with you. However, I think the structure of the club might be too incompatible. Campos tends to bring with him 6 "super scouts" based across the world. We have a rather bloated team of scouts and experts such as Murtogh, Bout, Lawlor etc. I would assume we'd have to have too many departures and incomings on the technical side to suit Campos.

It's my belief, from what I've seen/heard, that United don't actually want anyone to find the players as they are happy with the scouting process and the flexibility the committee setup offers them. It seems like they more want someone to help Matt Judge on the negotiation and communication side - someone who can be the go-between with agents and clubs while Judge is the number cruncher. In that vein, someone like Antero Henrique makes sense. Not saying I agree with this, though it is hard to judge. There's been some positive signs of progress IMHO but we still don't seem to be getting deals done efficiently, nor are we unearthing hidden gems like so many clubs on the continent seem to do at ease.

 

[devilish]

I totally agree with you. However, I think the structure of the club might be too incompatible. Campos tends to bring with him 6 "super scouts" based across the world. We have a rather bloated team of scouts and experts such as Murtogh, Bout, Lawlor etc. I would assume we'd have to have too many departures and incomings on the technical side to suit Campos.

It's my belief, from what I've seen/heard, that United don't actually want anyone to find the players as they are happy with the scouting process and the flexibility the committee setup offers them. It seems like they more want someone to help Matt Judge on the negotiation and communication side - someone who can be the go-between with agents and clubs while Judge is the number cruncher. In that vein, someone like Antero Henrique makes sense. Not saying I agree with this, though it is hard to judge. There's been some positive signs of progress IMHO but we still don't seem to be getting deals done efficiently, nor are we unearthing hidden gems like so many clubs on the continent seem to do at ease.

The only problem here is that unlike campos antero isn't very good in his job. It's like settling for Blanc instead of Stam because the former is cheaper.

 

[SparkedIntoLife]

The only problem here is that unlike campos antero isn't very good in his job. It's like settling for Blanc instead of Stam because the former is cheaper.

I'm with you on that. I'm saying what I think will happen rather than what I want. I believe United consider Henrique more of the right profile for what they want - a shark not a visionary. Not that he's been especially successful at PSG but he was well regarded at Porto. I think United have been a soft touch in the transfer market but Henrique just seems to alienate people. For me, Campos all the way but he won't be the one, sadly.

 

[steffyr2]

Ole doesn't have the benefit of Mourinho's backing because Pogba has been injured for the majority of the season and Ole didn't fancy Lukaku so he was sold. Bailly has been injured for the majority of the season too and Matic is another that Ole doesn't fancy but has to play him due to the state of our midfield.

He's inherited £50m Fred, £40m Matic and £30m Lindelof though, which is £120m that could've been better spent elsewhere.

Apart from Pogba, the rest were overpriced players that most would never have signed and are hardly a benefit for a incoming manager.

And even though you're saying that Mourinho has wasted money, none of the players are that expensive and/or that top tier. Odd that, since Utd is one of the wealthiest clubs there is. Almost like what you're saying isn't true.

btw, what do you think? Is Pogba not really that injured or did Ole not manage his injury well? Same with Rashford...

Also, Lukaku seems to be doing pretty well. Why did we get rid of him? Because Ole didn't 'fancy' him? Seems rather wasteful to me.

 

[Offside]

What we really need is Rio "Let him write whatever number he wants" Ferdinand in.

 

[Mark Pawelek]

... Campos tends to bring with him 6 "super scouts" based across the world. We have a rather bloated team of scouts and experts such as Murtogh, Bout, Lawlor etc. I would assume we'd have to have too many departures and incomings on the technical side to suit Campos ...

Incoming DoF should have control over footballing appointments: players, coaches, scouts, medics, psychologists, sport scientists, ... So should be about to bring in his own "super scouts" with him.

 

[Adnan]

And even though you're saying that Mourinho has wasted money, none of the players are that expensive and/or that top tier. Odd that, since Utd is one of the wealthiest clubs there is. Almost like what you're saying isn't true.

btw, what do you think? Is Pogba not really that injured or did Ole not manage his injury well? Same with Rashford...

Also, Lukaku seems to be doing pretty well. Why did we get rid of him? Because Ole didn't 'fancy' him? Seems rather wasteful to me.

Mourinho bought too many average players which has not only cost us in transfer fees but has absolutely blown our wage budget to extraordinary levels which is a hinderance to us currently. Sanchez alone was extremely expensive, so to say 'none of the players are that expensive' is false. United might be one of the wealthiest clubs around but pay out alot on operating costs and our profits have flatlined.

I believe Pogba is injured.

Lukaku doing well in Italy was predicted by many who wanted him gone. He got rid of him due to his off the ball work like pressing from the front not being of the required standard and his first touch/ball control being below par imo. What was wasteful was not bringing in a replacement.

 

[AneRu]

My point was that the managers at United shouldn't have a bigger say and too much control is given to them post SAF which has contributed to our downfall. The ultimate control should be with a Ralf Rangnick type figure.

Klopp wanted Brandt over Salah but was over ruled by the recruitment department according to reports.

I am with you on this, we are giving SAF level of control to people who don't really deserve it because they have not earned it with the club. SAF was master of all he surveyed at United because he is the guy who brought United back to the top but the people we have given so much power haven't done a quarter of what he achieved at United and more often than not they aren't used to that level of autonomy so they end up fecking things up.

 

[Adnan]

I am with you on this, we are giving SAF level of control to people who don't really deserve it because they have not earned it with the club. SAF was master of all he surveyed at United because he is the guy who brought United back to the top but the people we have given so much power haven't done a quarter of what he achieved at United and more often than not they aren't used to that level of autonomy so they end up fecking things up.

For a manager to have any infuence at the club regards longterm planning he has to avoid the sack for at least 5 years. And for him to avoid the sack he has to at the very least achieve the bare minimum every season which hasn't been the case too often. So it's sensible to have a DoF type figure who sets the longterm plan whilst the headcoach trains the players on the training ground in preparation for up coming fixtures.

I honestly can't believe we still haven't appointment one after wasting vast sums in the last 6 years or so.

 

[Roboc7]

For a manager to have any infuence at the club regards longterm planning he has to avoid the sack for at least 5 years. And for him to avoid the sack he has to at the very least achieve the bare minimum every season which hasn't been the case too often. So it's sensible to have a DoF type figure who sets the longterm plan whilst the headcoach trains the players on the training ground in preparation for up coming fixtures.

I honestly can't believe we still haven't appointment one after wasting vast sums in the last 6 years or so.

It makes perfect sense but what also makes sense is reason we haven’t appointed a DOF is because we don’t want one, it’s just a regular piece of PR.

Phil Jones new contract sums up why we dont want a new DOF. We were supposedly searching for a DOF and a manager at the time but that didn’t stop the club signing him up because it’s cheaper to keep him than let him go. Bring in a DOF football who has any real power and influence and you lose that control and ability to make decisions based more on finance than football.

 

[SparkedIntoLife]

Incoming DoF should have control over footballing appointments: players, coaches, scouts, medics, psychologists, sport scientists, ... So should be about to bring in his own "super scouts" with him.

I agree. However, I'm saying that it doesn't seem United want someone to wield such influence as they appear to want the likes of Bout, Murtough and Lawlor to stay. Every noise I'm hearing suggests they will want someone to adapt and enhance the current structure rather than change it. Campos' way of working appears to be too incompatible with this as he tends to pick his own people. For what it's worth, I am sure we have some great footballing minds at United but I feel there's no real clear leadership and unified direction so would much prefer Campos to come in and reshape us with people that suit him.

 

[devilish]

I'm with you on that. I'm saying what I think will happen rather than what I want. I believe United consider Henrique more of the right profile for what they want - a shark not a visionary. Not that he's been especially successful at PSG but he was well regarded at Porto. I think United have been a soft touch in the transfer market but Henrique just seems to alienate people. For me, Campos all the way but he won't be the one, sadly.

In every decision things can be done the right way or the wrong way. Now I am all in favour of us bringing in a DOF. We lack an experienced football man at board level who would know the clubs, the agents and the players enough not to be taken for a ride and who can be full time on the transfer market. However if we're planning to bring in a DOF just as a figure head and a scapegoat to cover Woody's arse then we're better off not bringing anyone at all. It would only contribute in adding more overheads, which honestly, its the least thing we need.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

What we really need is Rio "Let him write whatever number he wants" Ferdinand in.

"He's doing his thing, man."

Christ almighty.

 

[Adnan]

It makes perfect sense but what also makes sense is reason we haven’t appointed a DOF is because we don’t want one, it’s just a regular piece of PR.

Phil Jones new contract sums up why we dont want a new DOF. We were supposedly searching for a DOF and a manager at the time but that didn’t stop the club signing him up because it’s cheaper to keep him than let him go. Bring in a DOF football who has any real power and influence and you lose that control and ability to make decisions based more on finance than football.

A DoF makes sense financially too imo. Someone like a Campos would be able to make better use of our budget. For example, the budget allocated in the summer to Ole would've been used in a very different manner by Campos due to his vast knowledge and expertise in the field. We most likely would've seen a CB and RB arrive along with a CM and had significant change to spare to still go and make a further addition. Campos would also cull about 75% of the scouts working for the club which would save money and makes sense considering he likes to work with a small group of selected scouts.

 

[Roboc7]

A DoF makes sense financially too imo. Someone like a Campos would be able to make better use of our budget. For example, the budget allocated in the summer to Ole would've been used in a very different manner by Campos due to his vast knowledge and expertise in the field. We most likely would've seen a CB and RB arrive along with a CM and had significant change to spare to still go and make a further addition. Campos would also cull about 75% of the scouts working for the club which would save money and makes sense considering he likes to work with a small group of selected scouts.

Definitely but then you hand over control and it’s assuming the people in charge want to run a football club not a business.

 

[SparkedIntoLife]

So to my understanding the structure currently is essentially -

Woodward (signs off)
^ Judge (deal broker)
^ Manager (power of veto)
^ Transfer committee (includes Lawlor, Mutough, Bout, Butt, the manager and maybe a couple of others)
^ Extensive scouting and analysis team

Is that pretty much correct? And they essentially want someone to come in on Judge's level to be the go between? Judge being finance focused and the Technical Director about communication and organisation?

I can see how the likes of Ragnick and Campos don't fit this model, despite the fact one of those two would be my preferred DoF figure.

It seems to me that this model should ensure less absolute disaaster signings but is inherently disposed to go for safe options as it works on consensus. I worry that such a model misses out on some of the more wildcard and hidden gem talents. I also wonder if there's still too many cooks and not enough clear, distinct leadership.

 

[Adnan]

Definitely but then you hand over control and it’s assuming the people in charge want to run a football club not a business.

The only way I see such a model being implemented is if we hire a Nagelmann or Rose.

 

[red thru&thru]

So to my understanding the structure currently is essentially -

Woodward (signs off)
^ Judge (deal broker)
^ Manager (power of veto)
^ Transfer committee (includes Lawlor, Mutough, Bout, Butt, the manager and maybe a couple of others)
^ Extensive scouting and analysis team

Is that pretty much correct? And they essentially want someone to come in on Judge's level to be the go between? Judge being finance focused and the Technical Director about communication and organisation?

I can see how the likes of Ragnick and Campos don't fit this model, despite the fact one of those two would be my preferred DoF figure.

It seems to me that this model should ensure less absolute disaaster signings but is inherently disposed to go for safe options as it works on consensus. I worry that such a model misses out on some of the more wildcard and hidden gem talents. I also wonder if there's still too many cooks and not enough clear, distinct leadership.

Rangnick and Campos are experienced in negotiations. They have rapport, status, reputation if you will. Clubs just don't respect the likes of Ed and Judge...from what you hear in reports.

But more than just recruitment, there is no actual proactive strategy. This is what the above two would bring. What is the clubs mission, their objectives, the strategy and how the tactics will be laid down to achieve the clubs overall strategy.

 

[Bastian]

A DoF makes sense financially too imo. Someone like a Campos would be able to make better use of our budget. For example, the budget allocated in the summer to Ole would've been used in a very different manner by Campos due to his vast knowledge and expertise in the field. We most likely would've seen a CB and RB arrive along with a CM and had significant change to spare to still go and make a further addition. Campos would also cull about 75% of the scouts working for the club which would save money and makes sense considering he likes to work with a small group of selected scouts.

This is the reason why it's actually likely it will eventually happen. Woodward and his team have wasted so much money (whether buying on the recommendations of managers or recruitment team) it's unreal.

When Ole is sacked I believe the club will be forced to install professionals who oversee the football side of things.

 

[AneRu]

It makes perfect sense but what also makes sense is reason we haven’t appointed a DOF is because we don’t want one, it’s just a regular piece of PR.

Phil Jones new contract sums up why we dont want a new DOF. We were supposedly searching for a DOF and a manager at the time but that didn’t stop the club signing him up because it’s cheaper to keep him than let him go. Bring in a DOF football who has any real power and influence and you lose that control and ability to make decisions based more on finance than football.

And when you spend £600m net on new signings in seven years, only to end up 7th, then maybe just maybe you wake up to the fact that sometimes cheap usually ends up costing more. We have given away Rojo to an Argentine club on loan and obviously we are paying 90% of his wage but I am sure the club extended his contract presumably 'to protect his value'.

And how many managerial payoffs have we made because we are using inexperienced people to identify our manager? How many managers have we sacked after the same deadwood has dragged team performances down?

This is football and you can't just make decisions based on what applies in conventional business because a single decision can elevate you e.g Pool hiring Klopp or can set you back years e.g us hiring Moyes. The decision making parameters that apply in banking won't work in football.

 

[AneRu]

Definitely but then you hand over control and it’s assuming the people in charge want to run a football club not a business.

But you aren't handing over control if you control the budget mate. An ideal scenario would be DOF and manager decide on a set of targets, DOF takes case to the board, the board makes it known to the DOF how much can be spent before sales and the DOF and manager make a concrete decision on who comes in and who goes with the budgetary parameters set by Woodward who represents the board.

Ideally the DOF comes in with his team of scouts and Head of Recruitment. Whilst the season is still on, especially in the second half of the season, the DOF would have finalized his list and would be doing the leg work on the important deals which ensures that when the window opens we are just completing deals.

 

[SparkedIntoLife]

Rangnick and Campos are experienced in negotiations. They have rapport, status, reputation if you will. Clubs just don't respect the likes of Ed and Judge...from what you hear in reports.

But more than just recruitment, there is no actual proactive strategy. This is what the above two would bring. What is the clubs mission, their objectives, the strategy and how the tactics will be laid down to achieve the clubs overall strategy.

Sure but it seems to me that employing Campos or Ragnick to fulfill the narrow scope we seem to want would be like employing Picasso to draw the newspaper cartoon. A total waste of their talents. Both men seem to want an all encompassing influence on their clubs from top to bottom. I doubt United are offering such freedom.

 

[AneRu]

Sure but it seems to me that employing Campos or Ragnick to fulfill the narrow scope we seem to want would be like employing Picasso to draw the newspaper cartoon. A total waste of their talents. Both men seem to want an all encompassing influence on their clubs from top to bottom. I doubt United are offering such freedom.

Then we are still content to wander in the football wilderness because for us to properly rebuild we need someone who knows what he wants, what needs to be done and how to do it on the football side. Those two are about the best there is and until we bring someone of that ilk we will continue to spend millions for little to no return.

 

[Roboc7]

And when you spend £600m net on new signings in seven years, only to end up 7th, then maybe just maybe you wake up to the fact that sometimes cheap usually ends up costing more. We have given away Rojo to an Argentine club on loan and obviously we are paying 90% of his wage but I am sure the club extended his contract presumably 'to protect his value'.

And how many managerial payoffs have we made because we are using inexperienced people to identify our manager? How many managers have we sacked after the same deadwood has dragged team performances down?

This is football and you can't just make decisions based on what applies in conventional business because a single decision can elevate you e.g Pool hiring Klopp or can set you back years e.g us hiring Moyes. The decision making parameters that apply in banking won't work in football.

This is football but Utd aren’t run as a football club they are run as a business. We all know how a football club should be run and what makes sense but this isn’t a football club to the owners it’s an asset and source of wealth.

The club is happy to give new contracts to players whether they deserve them or not; to leave renewals until the final season because it’s suits their financial model. From a football perspective most of the time that makes no sense but they don’t care so why appoint someone who they are not going to listen to.

 

[AneRu]

This is football but Utd aren’t run as a football club they are run as a business. We all know how a football club should be run and what makes sense but this isn’t a football club to the owners it’s an asset and source of wealth.

The club is happy to give new contracts to players whether they deserve them or not; to leave renewals until the final season because it’s suits their financial model. From a football perspective most of the time that makes no sense but they don’t care so why appoint someone who they are not going to listen to.

The thing is for them to make the most money out of United the need the football side to run efficiently not this abomination of having the largest wage bill in the league and finishing 7th. The medium term impact is that the level of our endorsement deals will soon start to reflect our now established place on the pitch.

If they want to see how a club can be run as a business they have to look at Dortmund, Pool, Leicester and Juventus. The common denominator is that football people are making football decisions and they are not only successful relative to their income they are profitable too. Our model isn't sustainable at all.

 

[Roboc7]

The thing is for them to make the most money out of United the need the football side to run efficiently not this abomination of having the largest wage bill in the league and finishing 7th. The medium term impact is that the level of our endorsement deals will soon start to reflect our now established place on the pitch.

If they want to see how a club can be run as a business they have to look at Dortmund, Pool, Leicester and Juventus. The common denominator is that football people are making football decisions and they are not only successful relative to their income they are profitable too. Our model isn't sustainable at all.

It does but despite years of failure, a ridiculous wage bill and huge transfer spend they haven’t changed their approach because the business is still performing well. The tipping point comes when football really impacts the business, what that point is I have no idea.

We have to remember the people running the club aren’t competent and don’t know anything about football.

 

[red thru&thru]

Sure but it seems to me that employing Campos or Ragnick to fulfill the narrow scope we seem to want would be like employing Picasso to draw the newspaper cartoon. A total waste of their talents. Both men seem to want an all encompassing influence on their clubs from top to bottom. I doubt United are offering such freedom.

And there in lies the problem. Ed, or who ever, will not allow the freedom. This clearly holding us back.

 

[AneRu]

It does but despite years of failure, a ridiculous wage bill and huge transfer spend they haven’t changed their approach because the business is still performing well. The tipping point comes when football really impacts the business, what that point is I have no idea.

We have to remember the people running the club aren’t competent and don’t know anything about football.

I think we are already at the tipping point, don't we like owe north of £200m to other clubs for transfers? A debt that's due in this financial year? A year I which revenues are forecast to decline because of no CL football, a feat we are likely to repeat next season and we haven't accounted for the likely severance package for Ole and his staff because we will have to sack him.

The commercial bubble can't be sustained without on pitch success whilst we have a few big earners on long contracts. Things are already bad but, like you said, they are too incompeted to notice even from a business perspective.

 

[Roboc7]

I think we are already at the tipping point, don't we like owe north of £200m to other clubs for transfers? A debt that's due in this financial year? A year I which revenues are forecast to decline because of no CL football, a feat we are likely to repeat next season and we haven't accounted for the likely severance package for Ole and his staff because we will have to sack him.

The commercial bubble can't be sustained without on pitch success whilst we have a few big earners on long contracts. Things are already bad but, like you said, they are too incompeted to notice even from a business perspective.

Commercially they probably are at or close to the tipping point, start of this season they tried to buy time and sell this idea of a three year plan. We have effectively gone backwards though and there is nothing suggest we are now 2 and a half years from competing.

We always owe a lot on transfers, probably owed some ourselves so I don’t think it will be a problem to pay the transfers. However it will mean there isn’t going to be a big transfer budget, large chunk may have already gone on Bruno.

Last year they had money for Lukaku, this year Pogba money to boost the budget but beyond that we won’t have anyone we can/want to sell to help fund transfers. Glazers won’t put own cash in and revenues are dropping so could be in for a rough time.