That is against the rules, and clubs would be less interested in a player/agent who would do that
Maguire | he stays!
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But a lot of that is our burden, not a buyer’s, as literally nobody thought Maguire was worth anything near that at the time of purchase, and he’s massively, massively depreciated in value since that time. Him being England’s premier CB would point to a weak era for England CB’s, and that’s a fact rather than a knock on Maguire as the generation prior had two starting CB’s literally rated amongst the best CB of the century to date backed up by CB’s who, almost to a man, are better than the current CB’s at defending.
The unique aspect to Maguire is virtually all on our side and hasn’t got much tangible value in a buyers market. As discussed in this thread, there’s only two clubs in the country who play a game that Maguire enriches from the outset; he’s not a universally desired CB before his wages and age are factored in. There wouldn’t be a clamour for him in an open market as he isn’t an eclectic CB who fits into numerous front-fronted systems, which 90%+ (92.4%) of the league is now trying to play.
We've got Varane, Licha, Lindelof, Shaw, and Evans who all play or can competently play at centre back. It's not necessary to keep 200k a week player on the bench when we can make £25m.
Ah come on, do you seriously think agents aren't in regular communication with other clubs? It being against the rules doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
The moment Varane is injured and this guy has to play we will loose momentum and loose games he is woeful on the ball and a liability when playing out from the back he was at fault for a few goals in pre season most memorably the Dortmund game .
He has history for it too last season, he’s not up to the task and him lingering around creates more risk he’ll get to play.
Needs booting and asap he’ll do well at another club but not United and especially not under ETH.
He has history for it too last season, he’s not up to the task and him lingering around creates more risk he’ll get to play.
Needs booting and asap he’ll do well at another club but not United and especially not under ETH.
I'd imagine the first call would come from the agent to potential buying clubs to let them know such and such is available to see if they are interested. Especially in a case where a player, like Maguire, is clearly not in the plans at his current club.
West Ham are looking for a right footed CB to fill the squad gap that's existed since Dawson went to Wolves. The budget for this position seems to be £15m-£20m.
It's not a top priority as the club is mostly on the lookout for two midfield players and a left sided attacker. That's where the Rice money will go.
Probably need 1-2 forwards and a left back also bearing in mind probable departures.
It's not a top priority as the club is mostly on the lookout for two midfield players and a left sided attacker. That's where the Rice money will go.
Probably need 1-2 forwards and a left back also bearing in mind probable departures.
Why would they support that? The clubs do not want that to happen, they are the ones who asked to stop it.
Saw a rumour earlier that ETH wants David Alaba to replace Maguire?
Lindelof is the first option after Varane. Not Maguire.
I think RCB is : Varane - Lindelof - Maguire
LCB : Martinez - Shaw - Lindelof
To be honest, I do not see any truth in this rumour. A couple of weeks it has been reported that we are interested in Alaba, however, getting someone who must play week-in, week-out, and have him beside Varane and Martinez would make absolutely no sense. The two will be fix-starter with Shaw left and Dalot/AWS right, and we still have four back ups for the CB positions (Lindelof, Evans, Mengi and Maguire - if he stays). Furthermore, I do not think ETH would make a 3 CBs (e.g. City) with Alaba, Varane and Martinez although I like the idea as it would create a new dimension of new very exciting formation set-ups
Maybe we could still get Pavard now City have got their man in GvardiolTo be honest, I do not see any truth in this rumour. A couple of weeks it has been reported that we are interested in Alaba, however, getting someone who must play week-in, week-out, and have him beside Varane and Martinez would make absolutely no sense. The two will be fix-starter with Shaw left and Dalot/AWS right, and we still have four back ups for the CB positions (Lindelof, Evans, Mengi and Maguire - if he stays). Furthermore, I do not think ETH would make a 3 CBs (e.g. City) with Alaba, Varane and Martinez although I like the idea as it would create a new dimension of new very exciting formation set-ups
That is how we ended last season (actually Lindelof was ahead of Shaw at LCB as well, although perhaps just to keep Shaw out wide), but if Maguire does stay I'd say it's because he fancies his chances of moving ahead of Lindelof to be first back-up. Considering Varane's injury proneness, our #3 CB will definitely play quite a lot and while Lindelof has the inside running it's not like he's got the spot locked down.
Yet he still played over 30 games last season with all the same players there.
It's definitely fair to assume that there may be times we need to rely on further cover than Lindelof and Shaw next season and be concerned that it seems Maguire does cause us to be a significantly worse and less solid team.
So annoying we couldn't sell him early enough to get Min-Jae before Bayern,could have managed Varane then as well
But he is a bad player for us, especially as a bench player. He was arguably the main reason why we lost the tie va Sevilla, we were in total control until he entered the game and they made it 2-2 after that. And then the disaster in the other match.
Add to that, the plan is to play higher up in the pitch next season, with Onana playing as a sweeper. Maguire is slightly slower than the evolution, so his slowness will be massively exposed.
He is practically useless for us, and costs over 10m for year. I think he might be valuable at some team like West Ham, but only up to a certain point, which means for a price that makes sense for them.
I do not think that we should have accepted the original 20m offer Simple’s because pretty much every club is able to add a bit of money after the first offer. But we should definitely sit with West Ham and find a deal that works for all parts. Maybe 25m will work for West Ham and IMO that is very fair for us, it gives us some decent cash (45m over the course of two seasons) and does not cost FFP problems. If we however ask for 50m or something ridiculous with the idea of then meeting at 35-40m, all it will result is that he will stay here to play some token minutes next season, and then we will try to offload him for 10m next summer, and probably fail at that. We have seen this movie many times already where we insist on absurd prices for players that have been failures for us, to only scare the possible suitors and then the other summer either loaning them or selling for a couple of millions. While costing us good salaries in the process.
Spot on
Lindelof is second option for both positions. In the final 10 games of whatever when Licha was injured he was playing as LCB with Shaw as LB. It might be because the drop from Shaw to Malacia/Dalot is bigger and we don’t know if ETH would have preference Lindelof if we had a good deputy for Shaw, but as things stand Lindelof is the main deputy for both positions.
I can see Evans being preferred ahead of Maguire for LCB, which would make Maguire effectively fifth choice for LCB while continuing being third choice for RCB. He is essentially in the same pecking order position as Diallo or Pellestri, essentially needing several players to get injured for him to play. At 200k/salary that is something we must not accept and somehow sell him for whatever we can get.
It's not against the rules. What is illegal is to directly contact a player that is under contract and has more than six months left without the approval of his employer. Clubs can and do ask for permission, clubs also use the intermediary loophole. And clubs rarely bid for a player without having first talking to his representatives because it would be a waste of time for everyone involved.
Mostly cause he was the captain and ETH did not want to cause potential problems at the beginning. He started the season as first choice (which was laughable considering how much better Varane is). Then he lost his place to Varane but somehow still was the main deputy CB. Then the LCB backup went to Shaw but Maguire was still used as main backup at RCB. At some stage ETH have had enough, and probably got enough confidence to feel that the dressing room is his, so essentially relegated Maguire to third choice RCB and fourth choice LCB.
He won’t play 30 games this season. In fact, I do not think he will even start 10 matches.
Perfect summation
I think ultimately there is a set budget that West Ham have to work with and little wiggle room within that it seems.
Whilst another solid CB would be great, it really isn't a priority, we desperately need at least 1, probably 2 CM/DM players, we will probably need another LB by the end of the summer, probably another striker to replace Scamacca. If all those are of decent quality, thats probably the budget largely gone.
If we want Maguire at silly prices, then that means one of the key areas gets neglected instead or we don't get the first choice there. Its becoming increasingly clear we can't get too many 1st choices in the areas of weakness even with the large Rice money as it is.
I suspect 20m probably is close to the limit of what we could go to without badly interfering with other roles this summer.
I still also suspect it will end up with a decent loan with an obligation offer, loan fee of 5m with 20m at the end with Man Utd picking up something like 50-75k a week would mean for FFP you'd end up maybe with a slight profit and also works for West Ham as well.
Curious to know as West Ham fans perspective. A lot here keep claiming Maguire is actually good player but just in the wrong system. I personally dont agree but what do you think?
Do you see Harry Maguire as a good player for West Ham? I see a player that is slower than thick shit, doesnt always position himself well, will be turned inside out by a agile striker and is slow on the ball. Is that an improvement over the current CBs at WHU? In case of a sale i understand he will likely start because of his reputation and being the new signing but would he really improve your team?
If West Ham really offered 20m (as widely reported) I do not have much doubt that you can add another 5m. No club offers the final offer on the first offer.
However, I expect around 25m to be the best offers for Maguire. I guess we either sell at that, or we do not sell at all.
With regards to us paying Maguire, it probably depends. I would have expected it if we sell him for what United wants (35m or whatever), but at 20-25m, probably not. West Ham is perfectly capable of offering 130-150k/week IMO, and at a 4 year contract, that might work for Maguire. Especially if United makes clear to him that he will not play for United if he refuses to leave. But who knows how this will turn out. It probably depends how much Moyes want him.
Best case for United‘s point of view if Maguire + McTominay for 55-60m. And it probably works for West Ham, getting two decent players that improve your team for half a Rice (albeit Rice is far better than McTominay).
I just don't understand why West Ham even bother with Maguire at this point. There are other more urgent area needed to be addressed like you said. No one is interested in Maguire's service other than Moyes anyway.
I think a West Ham that holds deeper typically and goes on the counter attack feels like a match to West Ham ,and if you look at the stats for the player, they aren't *bad* per say but he definately seems to have a gaffe or two in him thats for sure. Interestingly though they don't seem to be as much an issue for England, and England are probably a close match to West Ham in terms of tactics that I think Moyes wants to use next season.
Could we afford 130-150k per week? Probably yes.
But in doing so we are stuck with Maguire come what may right through to 34-35 years old, and he may be an absolutely appalling player by then should his stats continue to decline from the good enough base right now and I don't think any West Ham fan would be comfortable having spent reasonable money. 130k p/w with Maguire at 30y/o and the way he is now is ok. Maguire at 130k p/w for a 33-34 y/o with rapidly wrosening stats is not ok at a club like West Ham.
It gets even worse when you think there is a HIGH chance Moyes is not here next year and the next manager will be lumbered with an unsellable player on 130k p/w and wants to p[lay a very different set of tactics that Maguire struggles with. Its not worked now at Man Utd, it obviously won't work when he is older again...
still can't believe he hasn't been shipped out yet
Because we want to sell him and not throw him out and close the gates.
Varane is on 340K a week and played 22 and 24 Prem league games from 38 in the last 2 seasons. This is 60.5% of Prem Games and Pro Rata he gets paid over 550K per week whilst leaving Ten Hag to play an emergency replacement for 39.5% of games.
Man City central defenders are: 1.Stones (21 prem games) - 2. Ake (22 prem games) - 3. Akanji (24 prem games) - 4. Dias (22 prem games) - 5. Laporte (11 prem games). At times some of these started as left or right backs but of the actual left and right backs Walker played 22, Cancelo 16 and Lewis 10. You can see that Pep on the whole tries to keep his players fresh and plays them aeound 22 - 24 games a season through rotation and injuries and had close to everyone fit for the business end of the season which resulted in a treble.
United rotated the right quite well Dalot 24 games and AWB 16, on the left Shaw 30 and Malcia 14. (Note Dalot sometimes played left back and Shaw centre back and is why the dont all add up nicely to 38 games). However, at centre back we played Martinez 24 games until he broke, and Varane every game until he broke. Linderloff played 14 games and Maguire 8.
Clearly at centre back we have a problem. City have 5 players who can do that role and Man United also have 5 with Shaw, but we struggle to rotate and manage the squad as wel as city. Varanes injuries means we really have 4.5. How selling Maguire to make it 3.5 helps is beyond me. If we get a replacement in and then sell Maguire thats fine, but we need someone in first. Jonny Evans played 14 prem games last year and conceeded 29 goals.(over 2 a game) He was injured for 22 of the 38 games last year and made Varane look as fit as a butchers dog on his 550K a week pro rata wage.
Personally, i would keep Maguire who is earing a third of Varanes Pro rata wage. He is fit 99% of the time, and decent all round defender. We finished 2nd 3 years ago with Maguire, Then we had the Joke Ronaldo return where every single player except Ronaldo had a bad season and then Maguire hardly played last year, despite getting hammered 7-0 by Liverpool and 6-3 by City with Varane, Martinez and Shaw. Or we will bring in Linderloff who has been bullied throughout his premier league career to lose a header against the giant collossal Kevin Debrune on the edge of our box to go 1 nil down in the FA cup final after 12 seconds. All of of our defenders make mistakes, but its only ever Maguires fault even when hes on the bench. Maybe we should give him a chance with Onana? AWB get out of my club was rife 6 months ago and he has turned it round and prooved ten hag wrong. If you use and rotate the whole squad like Pep, your best 11 is fresh for the big games and the end of season run in. We need our whole squad
Man City central defenders are: 1.Stones (21 prem games) - 2. Ake (22 prem games) - 3. Akanji (24 prem games) - 4. Dias (22 prem games) - 5. Laporte (11 prem games). At times some of these started as left or right backs but of the actual left and right backs Walker played 22, Cancelo 16 and Lewis 10. You can see that Pep on the whole tries to keep his players fresh and plays them aeound 22 - 24 games a season through rotation and injuries and had close to everyone fit for the business end of the season which resulted in a treble.
United rotated the right quite well Dalot 24 games and AWB 16, on the left Shaw 30 and Malcia 14. (Note Dalot sometimes played left back and Shaw centre back and is why the dont all add up nicely to 38 games). However, at centre back we played Martinez 24 games until he broke, and Varane every game until he broke. Linderloff played 14 games and Maguire 8.
Clearly at centre back we have a problem. City have 5 players who can do that role and Man United also have 5 with Shaw, but we struggle to rotate and manage the squad as wel as city. Varanes injuries means we really have 4.5. How selling Maguire to make it 3.5 helps is beyond me. If we get a replacement in and then sell Maguire thats fine, but we need someone in first. Jonny Evans played 14 prem games last year and conceeded 29 goals.(over 2 a game) He was injured for 22 of the 38 games last year and made Varane look as fit as a butchers dog on his 550K a week pro rata wage.
Personally, i would keep Maguire who is earing a third of Varanes Pro rata wage. He is fit 99% of the time, and decent all round defender. We finished 2nd 3 years ago with Maguire, Then we had the Joke Ronaldo return where every single player except Ronaldo had a bad season and then Maguire hardly played last year, despite getting hammered 7-0 by Liverpool and 6-3 by City with Varane, Martinez and Shaw. Or we will bring in Linderloff who has been bullied throughout his premier league career to lose a header against the giant collossal Kevin Debrune on the edge of our box to go 1 nil down in the FA cup final after 12 seconds. All of of our defenders make mistakes, but its only ever Maguires fault even when hes on the bench. Maybe we should give him a chance with Onana? AWB get out of my club was rife 6 months ago and he has turned it round and prooved ten hag wrong. If you use and rotate the whole squad like Pep, your best 11 is fresh for the big games and the end of season run in. We need our whole squad
wet spam apparently offered 20m and we said no without offering a counter or setting a reasonable price. doesn't sound like wanting to sell him to me
No longer the worlds most expensive CB when Gvardiol signs for City.
that’s why we have Lindelof who is ahead of him. Maguire would be a quality signing for probably the bottom 12 teams in the league to sit back and probably the be best defender in the bottom 12 but he is no where near good enough for United or any team that plays a high line that you usually see in the top eight teams.
Extremely naive take. Most deals nowadays are hammered out between the player and the buying club (through intermediaries) long before a fee is agreed between the clubs.
The only logical explanation is that at 20M it does not do anything for us.
The FFP experts have said the break even figure on Maguire is 27M if sold in this window due to how he impacts accounts. So leaving aside whether we replace him or not, if we sell him for 20M we reduce our available allowable spend under FFP by 7M, maybe that could be the difference in signing another midfielder like Amrabat or not but it would explain our reluctance to take a low bid.
We also would presumably need to sign a replacement as his departure leaves us with 3 fit senior CBs, one of whom is rather injury prone and so we are one bad challenge away from having to play our starting LB as our LCB. Johhny Evans is a bigger crock than Varane and honestly if you take sentiment out of it he is a pretty big downgrade from Maguire at this point in his career and so you would think ETH would have his sights set a little higher to replace Maguire.
The above would indicate why we seem to have set our stall as 35M minimum as this not only covers the amoritization on his contract but also provides funds towards purchasing his replacement. Absent a bid in this region, something I think we all can agree is very unlikely to materialize, I don't think it is that odd to suggest that we would be ok with keeping Maguire as our 4th choice CB. We have to cover that position and retaining Harry won't impact our transfer activity for other positions and he can much more easily be moved on next summer. Of course he may not play much and could lose his England spot as a consequence but that is an issue for him to consider and won't be of any concern to ETH or United.
There’s what, 25m left on the book for him? So we need it to be that to break even.
27m ignores the impact of wages. At 200k/week that comes out to 10m annually.
So the breakeven point without signing a replacement would be closer to 17m (27m - 10m).
You can add another 2.5m to that if we sign Evans as a stop-gap on 50k/week.
that's the figure i was putting on him....if we can get 25m for him then we need to sell and it does get his wages off the books
@Gandalf Evans and Maguire is a wash for me in terms of what they can offer us moving forward. I don't really understand the Evans move other than he brings experience and he can bloody use his left foot.
I cannot speak to how wages impact this as I cribbed this from the FFP threads written by much smarter people than me. The stated figure is 27M is the required break even for Maguire, maybe the wage savings only show up in next years accounts and the 27M hit has to be absorbed this year, I don't know all of the mechanics of this.
Sometimes it just is not workable to make a sale. If the price we need exceeds what the market thinks he is worth it is better just to hold on to him and use him as we are clearly not signing a new CB this window. We might end up keeping Evans but I think he would be more of a Lee Grant figure, handy in the dressing room and setting the tone in training but with no real intention to play first team football unless there is a major injury crisis.
Indeed, and all with the selling club’s active support if it’s a player they want rid of. Which is presumably the case with United and Maguire.
I think RCB is : Varane - Lindelof - Maguire
LCB : Martinez - Lindelof - Shaw
Lindelof is the first back up for both CBs